Eddie Sotto's take on the current state of the parks

[darthspielberg]

I know the Shanghai art is supposed to be vague, but am I crazy or does it look like this park won't have a Main Street to speak of. Is it going to be like Tokyo's World Bazar, or something else entirely. Food for thought.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Heh. It wasn't always something as small as salt and pepper shakers, either. I've seen more than one pic from the 50's with a modern metal rowboat, complete with outboard motor, parked insouciantly in Fowler's Harbor. That's good old unpredictable reality for you. Seems like Walt was both fussier and less fussy about seamless theming than we are today.

Yes. It seems like that. From time to time I'd run across things like that too. Great images and they make the point. Especially "visual intrusions" (seeing one element from one land spoiling the theme of another) and that whole philosophy. Once I saw a pic of Walt beside a "Tea Cup" vehicle and it looked had been in a few fights. Never could find it again. What I love about the PI image is that you can't say "Oh well, Walt wasn't there that day". You can't help but think if he had seen that skiff, he'd been upset about it. There was a story about him getting mad about seeing a Pickup truck in Frontierland and saying something like "what's that doing in 1868?"

 

[AEfx]

Sometimes we tend to associate Walt with our own unattainable level of perfection when it comes to theme and design. Any deviation of theme is something Walt would have never allowed or thrown a fit over. "WDI is slipping and Walt's standards are being betrayed", etc. I'm sure there are instances where this is true, but on another site I saw this image of him and it made me smile.

What's funny so often is how many people attribute to him characteristics he did not have. Walt Disney was a great man, but he was a man - far from infallible.

Here's a question for you, Eddie. Well, not so much a question, but I'm curious if you would agree.

If Disneyland decided to demolish and rebuild Sleeping Beauty Castle, people would be outraged. They'd cry about Walt, and his intention, etc. etc. I foresee riots.

However, although I am cautious at making assumptions about what dead people think, I honestly believe that if Walt Disney had lived through the 1970's that castle would be long gone. I don't think he would have stood for his flagship park to have it's castle so dwarfed by the MK version in size and scope.

Now, Sleeping Beauty Castle is a landmark today, no doubt. But Walt was all about progress, and people pretend he was a museum curator. People get scolded when they point out how much more impressive "our" Castle is than "theirs" (and in fact, every subsequent castle has made it look like a dwarf). I understand a certain bit of that, history, nostalgia, etc. - but it is kind of a dinky thing, and although people point to the Matterhorn as the "true" weenie, I think that's only because Walt never got 'round to redoing the castle in a more grand form.

Just a thought I've always had...curious as to your take.

 

[flavious27]

Sometimes we tend to associate Walt with our own unattainable level of perfection when it comes to theme and design. Any deviation of theme is something Walt would have never allowed or thrown a fit over. "WDI is slipping and Walt's standards are being betrayed", etc. I'm sure there are instances where this is true, but on another site I saw this image of him and it made me smile.

http://forums.wdwmagic.com/album.php?albumid=1388

Notice him in his 1890 extremely detailed Plaza Inn Restaurant with modern 1960's chrome salt and pepper shakers. They do make fake crystal ones that are cheap, so this is no excuse, but to me this is an obvious cheese moment. I know this is a HUGE knit pick, but given the size of the pedestal he's on was worth pointing out.

Here's a recent image and you can see how Show Quality and the Foods group work together to have period neutral looking salt and pepper, fancy looking silverware, detailed china, and the vase on the table. Great job!
http://www.dottedroute.com/wp-content/gallery/disneyland/028.jpg

In designing restaurants, the tabletop and flatware are a big part of the design as you interact with those pieces and they are referenced against the space. I know PI is a buffeteria, but in Walt's day he was reinventing that idea too. When you spend millions on tassles, leaded glass and drapes, why would you blow off the table? Stumbling at the finish line. I learned this by working with our Chef on Rivera who insisted on countless mockups of the tabletop, china and anything you look at or touch. The color and feel of the tabletop had to work with the food and plate color. Just an observation. Great image just the same.

17.70 for that meal?

 

[flavious27]

What's funny so often is how many people attribute to him characteristics he did not have. Walt Disney was a great man, but he was a man - far from infallible.

Here's a question for you, Eddie. Well, not so much a question, but I'm curious if you would agree.

If Disneyland decided to demolish and rebuild Sleeping Beauty Castle, people would be outraged. They'd cry about Walt, and his intention, etc. etc. I foresee riots.

However, although I am cautious at making assumptions about what dead people think, I honestly believe that if Walt Disney had lived through the 1970's that castle would be long gone. I don't think he would have stood for his flagship park to have it's castle so dwarfed by the MK version in size and scope.

Now, Sleeping Beauty Castle is a landmark today, no doubt. But Walt was all about progress, and people pretend he was a museum curator. People get scolded when they point out how much more impressive "our" Castle is than "theirs" (and in fact, every subsequent castle has made it look like a dwarf). I understand a certain bit of that, history, nostalgia, etc. - but it is kind of a dinky thing, and although people point to the Matterhorn as the "true" weenie, I think that's only because Walt never got 'round to redoing the castle in a more grand form.

Just a thought I've always had...curious as to your take.

I have always wondered if disney co would ever have a Cinderella castle that will look like the Cinderella castle that is used in the latest bunch of walt disney pictures intro videos.

 

[HBG2]

Those are perhaps the most futile of all park-related "What would Walt do?" questions. Remember that DL was 11 years old when Walt died. He never had to deal with "classic attractions," park nostalgia, rides that generations had grown up with. He never had an old park.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

I have always wondered if disney co would ever have a Cinderella castle that will look like the Cinderella castle that is used in the latest bunch of walt disney pictures intro videos.

My wish exactly. I hoped they would do a whole park inside the walls of that Castle in the trailer. It's massive. Much larger than WDW. Imagine how great each level of the castle could be? What a park! All you need is the castle and it's courtyard.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Those are perhaps the most futile of all park-related "What would Walt do?" questions. Remember that DL was 11 years old when Walt died. He never had to deal with "classic attractions," park nostalgia, rides that generations had grown up with. He never had an old park.

Good point. The question is, with his appetite for dramatic change and redoing whole lands (T'land 1967, redo of Natures Wonderland, adding NOS), would it ever have gotten "old"? Herb Ryman told me once that Walt told him that he wanted a bigger castle but could not afford it. He was relatively disappointed in the SBC at DL. Herb did the rendering of Walt's vision and the Castle in it was pretty intense. Scale is an issue as well, and DL has it's own issues that you are pretty locked into. So I'm not saying he'd drop a huge WDW scale in there, but he may have remodeled it and made it something more amazing.

 

[tirian]

However, although I am cautious at making assumptions about what dead people think, I honestly believe that if Walt Disney had lived through the 1970's that castle would be long gone. I don't think he would have stood for his flagship park to have it's castle so dwarfed by the MK version in size and scope.

I think it's safe to say the Florida Project would have had the new flagship park. Even though E.P.C.O.T. was Walt's focus and not the "amusement park," Florida had "enough land to build everything [we] can dream" and represented the control Walt lacked in Anaheim. Honestly, despite DL's history, the Magic Kingdom should have been better than the original, just like DLP was superior to everything that preceded it.

Now, Sleeping Beauty Castle is a landmark today, no doubt. But Walt was all about progress, and people pretend he was a museum curator. People get scolded when they point out how much more impressive "our" Castle is than "theirs" (and in fact, every subsequent castle has made it look like a dwarf). I understand a certain bit of that, history, nostalgia, etc. - but it is kind of a dinky thing, and although people point to the Matterhorn as the "true" weenie, I think that's only because Walt never got 'round to redoing the castle in a more grand form.

It's also tough to say whether or not he would have replaced it because by DL's 10th anniversary, he certainly could have done so—and didn't. Maybe he finally decided California's castle needed to remain small in order to work with the scale of the Matterhorn. :shrug:

 

[tirian]

17.70 for that meal?

Sheesh.

 

[flavious27]

I think it's safe to say the Florida Project would have had the new flagship park.

It could have been, but it is just speculation without walt been taped saying so and or him writing a memo stating this.

Calling WDW the flagship park has stared arguments in other threads. It is really the original east coast vs west coast rivalry.

 

[flavious27]

Sheesh.

well atleast dlr screws guests just as much as tdo does for a $7 boston market meal.

 

[tirian]

It could have been, but it is just speculation without walt been taped saying so and or him writing a memo stating this.

Calling WDW the flagship park has stared arguments in other threads. It is really the original east coast vs west coast rivalry.

So what? :lol: Fanboy rivalry doesn't matter; the fact is that Walt was always trying to top himself, and he didn't let previous successes stop him from doing better the next time. There's no speculation involved. It isn't as if everything he ever said or wished was recorded for the annuls of time.

Now here's some speculation about Shanghai.

Eddie, some people on Progress City have questioned whether or not the Shanghai castle is "allowed" to be taller than the one in Florida, since WDW's castle is supposedly a tribute to Walt's last dream. Is this actually followed, or just an urban myth?

...and can you believe Disney is actually building a park without a shopping mall (Main Street)? :lol:

 

[flavious27]

Good point. The question is, with his appetite for dramatic change and redoing whole lands (T'land 1967, redo of Natures Wonderland, adding NOS), would it ever have gotten "old"? Herb Ryman told me once that Walt told him that he wanted a bigger castle but could not afford it. He was relatively disappointed in the SBC at DL. Herb did the rendering of Walt's vision and the Castle in it was pretty intense.

I think that walt would have had some backlash if he did demolish sbc to built a larger castle. The main icon of each mk park is the castle and each castle has a personality all of its own. If tdo decided to remodel Cinderella castle to look like the castle in the intro video, wdw fans would be up in arms about changing the castle. DL fans would be more mad that the change would cement MK as the flagship park with Cinderella castle as being the flagship icon for most of the company.

My wish exactly. I hoped they would do a whole park inside the walls of that Castle in the trailer. It's massive. Much larger than WDW. Imagine how great each level of the castle could be? What a park! All you need is the castle and it's courtyard.

That park would be great, there is much that could be done with that concept. Heck I think that they could have hotel cottages inside the park that would work. But there would be the problem it would be considered the flagship park, so location would be a vital factor.

 

[flavious27]

So what? :lol: Fanboy rivalry doesn't matter; the fact is that Walt was always trying to top himself, and he didn't let previous successes stop him from doing better the next time. There's no speculation involved. It isn't as if everything he ever said or wished was recorded for the annuls of time.

Now here's some speculation about Shanghai.

Eddie, some people on Progress City have questioned whether or not the Shanghai castle is "allowed" to be taller than the one in Florida, since WDW's castle is supposedly a tribute to Walt's last dream. Is this actually followed, or just an urban myth?

...and can you believe Disney is actually building a park without a shopping mall (Main Street)? :lol:

Fanboy rivalry matters when one side is "I walk in Walt's footsteps" and the other is "We are bigger, offer more, and the true center of disney parks".

The same fun arguments are going to happen when Woz takes a larger role at Apple. My steve created the company, your steve is just a demi god.

 

[lazyboy97o]

Walking around Universal Orlando today I found myself thinking once again about a topic I do not think comes up all that often, bathrooms. People today have certain expectations regarding equipment, square footage, colors and the one my personal experience cleaning them has pointed me towards, materials, particularly in favor of ones that can be cleaned and polished to a shine. A truly Victorian bathroom, a literal water closet, would be appalling to most guests, same goes for continuing the gritty realism of places life Harambe Village. I would assume modern health codes play a role as well. Eddie, do you have any thoughts on bathrooms, as they exist in almost very themed experience but are definitely not a topic widely discussed.

Eddie, some people on Progress City have questioned whether or not the Shanghai castle is "allowed" to be taller than the one in Florida, since WDW's castle is supposedly a tribute to Walt's last dream. Is this actually followed, or just an urban myth?

Sounds a lot more like a twisting of the Federal Aviation Administration regulations. Besides, shouldn't the cap be the slightly taller Spaceship Earth, which sits at "Walt's last dream"?

 

[HMF]

I have always wondered if disney co would ever have a Cinderella castle that will look like the Cinderella castle that is used in the latest bunch of walt disney pictures intro videos.

That Castle is a Cinderella/Sleeping Beauty hybrid. Most of it is Cinderella Castle but there is a tower on the left hand side that is from Sleeping Beauty Castle at Disneyland.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Eddie, some people on Progress City have questioned whether or not the Shanghai castle is "allowed" to be taller than the one in Florida, since WDW's castle is supposedly a tribute to Walt's last dream. Is this actually followed, or just an urban myth?

...and can you believe Disney is actually building a park without a shopping mall (Main Street)? :lol:

I never heard that taller thing when I was there. That does make sense. A kind of a "big turret syndrome" kind of thing.

TDL has a "World Bazaar" instead of Main Street, so I'm sure they will find a way to sell stuff.

 

[flavious27]

Walking around Universal Orlando today I found myself thinking once again about a topic I do not think comes up all that often, bathrooms. People today have certain expectations regarding equipment, square footage, colors and the one my personal experience cleaning them has pointed me towards, materials, particularly in favor of ones that can be cleaned and polished to a shine. A truly Victorian bathroom, a literal water closet, would be appalling to most guests, same goes for continuing the gritty realism of places life Harambe Village. I would assume modern health codes play a role as well. Eddie, do you have any thoughts on bathrooms, as they exist in almost very themed experience but are definitely not a topic widely discussed.


Sounds a lot more like a twisting of the Federal Aviation Administration regulations. Besides, shouldn't the cap be the slightly taller Spaceship Earth, which sits at "Walt's last dream"?

Bathrooms of WDW

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-q3hXQJc-9Y&feature=player_embedded#at=34

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Bathrooms of WDW

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-q3hXQJc-9Y&feature=player_embedded#at=34

Bathrooms are usually themed minimally as the guest has one thing on their mind, but they can always be better. There are a ton of codes of course that you pretty much have to slave to and ADA requirements as well. Making them cleanable long term makes the surfaces pretty "bulletproof" by design and to that end can be a bit limiting. They are designed for capacity as well. Victorian Restrooms can be pretty cool as the options in tile are vast and the look can be rich.

One of the more fun examples are the ones near Alice At DL with themed stall doors. Guests are free to "paint the roses red" in thematic privacy.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3621/3498467192_80d43c3a30.jpg