Eddie Sotto's take on the current state of the parks

[WDW1974]

The decision came down while i was on vacation. NEVER go on vacation. Michael in addition to cost issues thought the 20s version would send the message that we had "lost our innocence". Having a jazz speakeasy was going too far I suppose. Of course we do the keystone cops not Elliot Ness. That did not come through clear enough and the decision was taken. It was based on the Hello Dolly set from Fox. Some designers protested this look and it was an internal struggle as it was called "urban blight".

I was travelling with Mr Eisner during the park's construction and he turned to me and said "You were right, we should have done that 1920's main street." of course this was of little solace since we were half done with the one he had commissioned. I was not happy. LOL. Cost was a factor as well as that concept included an elevated train (peoplemover) and a circlevision theater and a speakeasy show/restaurant. All that was cut. Pretty ambitious for a main street, i think i was the wrong guy to put on a project where they just wanted a copy. We kept embellishing it toward the "Hello Dolly" set anyway. Every prisoner has a right to try and escape!

Yeah ... that is kind of what I had heard thru the rumor mill over the years.

Now, I know they borrowed the elevated train idea for TDS ... But didn't the idea originate for WDW's MK? I could swear I have seen art (maybe a Herb Ryman rendering) that shows one down the right side of Main Street.

I always got the feeling that the relative failure of D-I-C-K Tracy may have played a part in Michael's decision. He was a passionate dude and often jumped into and out of things quickly. ... Who can forget all the D-I-C-K Tracy attractions that were supposed to come to Disney-MGM and the Hollywoodland they wanted to (somehow) add in to DL?

I am more interested in what they're going to wind up doing in Shanghai as everything I've heard suggests more cartoon-like lands ... having seen HKDL, I can see how that can work with a Tomorrowland concept ... but Main Street? Frontierland?

 

[whylightbulb]

Yeah ... that is kind of what I had heard thru the rumor mill over the years.

Now, I know they borrowed the elevated train idea for TDS ... But didn't the idea originate for WDW's MK? I could swear I have seen art (maybe a Herb Ryman rendering) that shows one down the right side of Main Street.

I always got the feeling that the relative failure of D-I-C-K Tracy may have played a part in Michael's decision. He was a passionate dude and often jumped into and out of things quickly. ... Who can forget all the D-I-C-K Tracy attractions that were supposed to come to Disney-MGM and the Hollywoodland they wanted to (somehow) add in to DL?

I am more interested in what they're going to wind up doing in Shanghai as everything I've heard suggests more cartoon-like lands ... having seen HKDL, I can see how that can work with a Tomorrowland concept ... but Main Street? Frontierland?

Yes it's a shame. The D-i-c-k Tracy Crimestoppers attraction got pretty far into design, just before production, until everyone was reasigned. That would have been a popular one despite the film failure. So instead we get Buzz...nowhere near as elaborate or fun as Crimestoppers would have been.

 

[mcjaco]

Honestly, though, how many of us would still be getting in line for D-i-c-k Tracy themed rides? Good move on dropping that whole idea.

The peoplemover idea for Main Street has peaked my interest though. I always thought that it was great technology that could be used elsewhere if themed the right way.

 

[whylightbulb]

Honestly, though, how many of us would still be getting in line for D-i-c-k Tracy themed rides? Good move on dropping that whole idea.

Are you kidding? With that logic nobody would be getting in line for Splash Mountain because Song of the South is outdated. Trust me, the Crimestoppers dark ride was a full-scale, interactive AA show that would have stood the test of time as well as Splash or any other Disney E-ticket.

 

[EPCOT Explorer]

The decision came down while i was on vacation. NEVER go on vacation. Michael in addition to cost issues thought the 20s version would send the message that we had "lost our innocence". Having a jazz speakeasy was going too far I suppose. Of course we do the keystone cops not Elliot Ness. That did not come through clear enough and the decision was taken. It was based on the Hello Dolly set from Fox. Some designers protested this look and it was an internal struggle as it was called "urban blight".

I was travelling with Mr Eisner during the park's construction and he turned to me and said "You were right, we should have done that 1920's main street." of course this was of little solace since we were half done with the one he had commissioned. I was not happy. LOL. Cost was a factor as well as that concept included an elevated train (peoplemover) and a circlevision theater and a speakeasy show/restaurant. All that was cut. Pretty ambitious for a main street, i think i was the wrong guy to put on a project where they just wanted a copy. We kept embellishing it toward the "Hello Dolly" set anyway. Every prisoner has a right to try and escape!

Wow. Such an unorthodox idea!:lol::sohappy: Hard to imagine, but I love it. 1920's Disney/MSUSA would have been very unique.

 

[WDW1974]

Are you kidding? With that logic nobody would be getting in line for Splash Mountain because Song of the South is outdated. Trust me, the Crimestoppers dark ride was a full-scale, interactive AA show that would have stood the test of time as well as Splash or any other Disney E-ticket.

Absolutely.

Great attractions are great attractions regardless of whether people are familiar with the source material or even if there's any to begin with.

 

[Animaniac93-98]

Absolutely.

Great attractions are great attractions regardless of whether people are familiar with the source material or even if there's any to begin with.

Indeed, especially if they are interactive thrill rides. Tracy would have been great and wherever I suggest it as something new for DHS (just for fun) I get the same, unimaginative responses.

Tracy made $103 million domestically (plus $59 million overseas at a $47 million production cost), making it #9 for the 1990 Box Office and earned 3 Oscars (with 4 additional nominations, including one for Al Pacino as Best Supporting Actor). But it wasn't #1 at $251 million domestically like Batman the year before so by Eisner's standards it "failed" even if it did better at the box office and Oscars than Little Mermaid did the year before.

 

[mcjaco]

Are you kidding? With that logic nobody would be getting in line for Splash Mountain because Song of the South is outdated. Trust me, the Crimestoppers dark ride was a full-scale, interactive AA show that would have stood the test of time as well as Splash or any other Disney E-ticket.

How is that illogical? Song of the South at least has memorable characters and music, which most people can relate to, even if they haven't seen the movie. Tracy had none of that. It was a forgettable movie, at best. And how many kids even know who the character is nowadays?

I'm not saying the ride wouldn't have been fantastic, but I don't think it would have "stood the test of time." Movie tie in's have a very short shelf life with the general public, with the exception of the Disney classics.

 

[Animaniac93-98]

I'm not saying the ride wouldn't have been fantastic, but I don't think it would have "stood the test of time." Movie tie in's have a very short shelf life with the general public, with the exception of the Disney classics.

Which is why Mr. Toad's Wild Ride is still popular at Disneyland and Men in Black is at Universal Studios.

 

[mcjaco]

Which is why Mr. Toad's Wild Ride is still popular at Disneyland and Men in Black is at Universal Studios.

So you're saying Men in Black is a classic? I'm not following....although it may be the way it was written.

I don't know the numbers, but I'd venture to guess the Men In Black did quite a bit better than D-i-c-k Tracy (still laughing that we have to hyphenate that). I'd also venture to guess that most people remember Men In Black, and not the Tracy movie.

Look, I enjoyed Tracy, I just don't think it had the staying power that a few of think it does (or did).

 

[PhilharMagician]

Thats a little freaky the thread was gone. It had to be Gremlins and not a technical glitch i don't buy it.

It was Stitch!:lookaroun

Why did I say that? :brick:

I again want to thank Eddie Sotto for joining in with the conversation. I would love to hear any other ideas that you have had to do with the theme parks, because you really nailed it with your EPCOT thoughts.

 

[Animaniac93-98]

So you're saying Men in Black is a classic? I'm not following....although it may be the way it was written.

I don't know the numbers, but I'd venture to guess the Men In Black did quite a bit better than D-i-c-k Tracy (still laughing that we have to hyphenate that). I'd also venture to guess that most people remember Men In Black, and not the Tracy movie.

Look, I enjoyed Tracy, I just don't think it had the staying power that a few of think it does (or did).

There was sarcasm in my statement as Men in Black is both neither a classic or a film people care about hugely today but the ride is still popular for what it is. Why wouldn't a fantastic ride stand the test of time? Does it mean a sub par ride will do better just because of a popular character? (and from SGE and SSC we can see that's not the case) Quality will always win out and doesn't Spash Mounatin make people interested in Song of the South again, much more so than had the ride never been built at all because it's so good?

I mentioned earlier Eisner's perception of not begin a hit but viewing his book "Work in Progress":

"Also, we managed to earn a significant profit [my emphasis] from D*ck Tracy-in part because it was so well produced by Warren and in part because we supported it with a massive marketing campaign."

He goes on to say how he likes the movie but doens't like the idea of taking the risk to make a blockbuster and that is what Disney does not do best (excpet, you know Roger Rabbit and stuff). Why he approved of Pirates, The Rocketeer, all post Lion King animated features (which according to the animators had to be blockbusters) or other movies is beyond me if that's the case, but more likely it's just PR talk.

The ride itself was more than likely not built because of the costs, like may a great Disney dream. Such a shame.

 

[lazyboy97o]

Now, I know they borrowed the elevated train idea for TDS ... But didn't the idea originate for WDW's MK? I could swear I have seen art (maybe a Herb Ryman rendering) that shows one down the right side of Main Street.

There is a piece that is an overlay on the facades that contain the Plaza Restaurant. It can be seen in Designing Disney's Theme Parks and probably in From Sketch to Reality too.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Yeah ... that is kind of what I had heard thru the rumor mill over the years.

Now, I know they borrowed the elevated train idea for TDS ... But didn't the idea originate for WDW's MK? I could swear I have seen art (maybe a Herb Ryman rendering) that shows one down the right side of Main Street.

You did see it, but it was done for EDL Main Street. Herb did several great paintings and a few sketches. Sooo fortunate to have him on the project. BTW- I think MS was killed before D Tracy came out. I remember Jeff Katsenberg visiting us all in France, and addressing us in front of the park model, saying that "D- Tracy was the best script he had ever read!" Love that.

 

[Animaniac93-98]

There is a piece that is an overlay on the facades that contain the Plaza Restaurant. It can be seen in Designing Disney's Theme Parks and probably in From Sketch to Reality too.

And clearly states it was for DLRP which recycled most of WDWs Main Street facades, as you know doubt already know.

 

[Animaniac93-98]

I remember Jeff Katsenberg visiting us all in France, and addressing us in front of the park model, saying that "D- Tracy was the best script he had ever read!" Love that.

Funny how that contradicts this statement also from "Work in progress" on Tracy:

"What we overlooked, Jeffery argued, was the fact that the movie lacked an emotionally compelling story and characters that the audience could truly care about."

And wasn't he the one who told Beatty to cut 30 minutes from the movie? So much for best script ever.

But I love all these stories and concepts Mr. Sotto. Fantastic reads I must say.

 

[mcjaco]

But I love all these stories and concepts Mr. Sotto. Fantastic reads I must say.

Agreed.

More importantly, I appreciate (as I'm sure we all do) Mr. Sotto's responses here. Thank you!

 

[EPCOT Explorer]

You did see it, but it was done for EDL Main Street. Herb did several great paintings and a few sketches. Sooo fortunate to have him on the project. BTW- I think MS was killed before D Tracy came out. I remember Jeff Katsenberg visiting us all in France, and addressing us in front of the park model, saying that "D- Tracy was the best script he had ever read!" Love that.

:lol: Now, that's interesting...

Thanks for posting this!!

 

[jt04]

:lol: Now, that's interesting...

I walked out on that movie. The irony. :ROFLOL:

 

[HMF]

How is that illogical? Song of the South at least has memorable characters and music, which most people can relate to, even if they haven't seen the movie. .

People can't see the movie because Disney won't let it be released again.