Eddie Sotto's take on the current state of the parks

[inluvwithbeast]

Excellent question, but I'm afraid I have no recent insight into that. I can tell you that Industrial Engineers are used in design and planning of projects to work with operations in guest traffic flow and there are certain standards that are maintained. "pinch points" in the lands are studied to maximize flow before and after, say a new parade or "Fantasmic!" type event occurs. That has to be planned in advance, same for the sizes of open viewing areas where you allow 15 Sq. feet per person. So the expertise is used and occurs at all levels, at least it did.

Yes! As an IE major, these things make me excited. I am assuming IEs would be involved with the NextGen queues as well? In one of my classes, we saw a clip of an IE at Disney talking about working on the Space Mountain queue, but it was brief and I couldn't find much else about it.

 

[xdan0920]

Good one. Never really thought about it. I do think that "major backlashes" are not necessarily a good indicator as the fan base is a minority and not the same as the general public, and sometimes a "Matterhorn is made of a Molehill". The company as a whole does not design directly for the fan as you know. It's good to know how the fans feel and they sneak in pleasers, but in some cases, the reality of what ends up in the park is not as bad as the fans feared and the issue evaporates. The fanbase is pretty hard to please and cynical these days, so designing to calm that diverse storm of voices may be impossible. There are somethings the fans like that shock me as well. Never can tell, but being a fan, we all have our right to say what we think.

You would imagine that by the time they are ready to blow 100 million to a Billion dollars on something and show the art, they would be pretty confident in what they are doing and would have secretly tested the idea with focus groups or fans, etc. I'm not sure that the fans had much to do with the rethink of WDW F'land, as much as the change in upper management made the slate in question.

Thanks for the response.

I agree that the Re-Imagining of F'Land was not a reaction to fan sentiment, but a result of the management shake up. In my opinion, and I think the general opinion is, that the change is good. The 7 dwarfs mine train looks exceptional in concept.

A question for you regarding the logistics of building the Mine Train. I am sure you have seen the concept art and plans posted online. The Mine Train is going to be constructed smack dab in the middle of this beautiful new F'Land. And the schedule of opening has everything coming in phases. So the Beast Restaurant, and Mermaid ride will be open and gorgeously themed, then right in the middle will be this island of walls. It seems like a very large construction as well. So there will be trucks, cranes and I am assuming some significant noise as well.

What is your opinion on this phased opening? If it was up to me, I would prefer they push the opening of the whole land back and get everything built and open at once. I would like to walk into a fully fleshed out expansion and be blown away. I feel the impact will be dulled by this phased opening schedule, and the inclusion of a huge walled island in the initial opening.

I do realize that Disney is pushing to do this in phases to give guests a reason to come back in quick succession. Mermaid and Beast in '12, then Mine Train in '13. But I think that is a major sacrifice of show.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Thanks for the response.

I agree that the Re-Imagining of F'Land was not a reaction to fan sentiment, but a result of the management shake up. In my opinion, and I think the general opinion is, that the change is good. The 7 dwarfs mine train looks exceptional in concept.

A question for you regarding the logistics of building the Mine Train. I am sure you have seen the concept art and plans posted online. The Mine Train is going to be constructed smack dab in the middle of this beautiful new F'Land. And the schedule of opening has everything coming in phases. So the Beast Restaurant, and Mermaid ride will be open and gorgeously themed, then right in the middle will be this island of walls. It seems like a very large construction as well. So there will be trucks, cranes and I am assuming some significant noise as well.

What is your opinion on this phased opening? If it was up to me, I would prefer they push the opening of the whole land back and get everything built and open at once. I would like to walk into a fully fleshed out expansion and be blown away. I feel the impact will be dulled by this phased opening schedule, and the inclusion of a huge walled island in the initial opening.

I do realize that Disney is pushing to do this in phases to give guests a reason to come back in quick succession. Mermaid and Beast in '12, then Mine Train in '13. But I think that is a major sacrifice of show.

If the luxury is there to do so, I'd open the whole thing at once. I'm not sure the Mine Train is worth a return trip on it's own. (I'd imagine it's the Crush coaster from DLP re skinned in some way) I'm not saying it's bad, but at best it's hard to market a C or D ride on it's own. Maybe it just won't be ready in time?

BTW- Sometimes phasing is driven by fiscal year budgets as well. They only want to spend so much in a given year.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Disneyland Paris management.

My good friend Alain Littaye (Disney and More Blogspot) has written a sensitive article on the management of DLP in light of the horrible BTM accident this week (fake rock fell and seriously injured guest). If you want to understand the background, this is something you'll enjoy. Worth discussing.

http://disneyandmore.blogspot.com/2011/04/editors-note-youll-find-below-update-on.html

Thanks Alain!

 

[The Empress Lilly]

My good friend Alain Littaye (Disney and More Blogspot) has written a sensitive article on the management of DLP in light of the horrible BTM accident this week (fake rock fell and seriously injured guest). If you want to understand the background, this is something you'll enjoy. Worth discussing.

http://disneyandmore.blogspot.com/2011/04/editors-note-youll-find-below-update-on.html

Thanks Alain!

If I may...

That's all nice and dandy, about being sensitive to the managerial side of things.

Indeed, now that I understand the financial plight this billion dollar profit corporation is going through, I shall be sensitive when my children die on an attraction because they skimmed on safety maintenance.
I mean, what can one expect for those $600 a day for a family of four anyway.

:fork:

 

[gmajew]

My good friend Alain Littaye (Disney and More Blogspot) has written a sensitive article on the management of DLP in light of the horrible BTM accident this week (fake rock fell and seriously injured guest). If you want to understand the background, this is something you'll enjoy. Worth discussing.

http://disneyandmore.blogspot.com/2011/04/editors-note-youll-find-below-update-on.html

Thanks Alain!

Great article and part of the big issues of running a successful business! Expanding to fast is always hard to overcome! In my world we went from 50 units to 500 in less then 5 years and it almost killed us! Then the financial drain on the poor performing aspects made me cut other areas to survive! Never a good position to be in, but if you can weather the storm you can come out huge! THat was what they tried to do and to this day they are still fixing the fast expansion problems!

 

[Eddie Sotto]

If I may...

That's all nice and dandy, about being sensitive to the managerial side of things.

Indeed, now that I understand the financial plight this billion dollar profit corporation is going through, I shall be sensitive when my children die on an attraction because they skimmed on safety maintenance.
I mean, what can one expect for those $600 a day for a family of four anyway.

:fork:

My impression from the article he wrote was not to defend the management or trivialize the accident, but lend a bit of perspective as to the challenges they face. None of us know the real reason why or how that "rock" fell and hurt those guests. You hope and pray that it is not something that could have been easily forseen. We just don't know yet. It's quite possible that there might have been some unknown fatigue that is not normally part of the maintenance program and was not anticipated, or could've been a flaw in the design, that over time failed from being in those frigid temperatures. Time will tell. As you do know, Disney parks have an incredible safety record when you look at the number of guests that are processed through an attraction against the number of injuries. That ratio makes any attraction safer the riding in a car or possibly crossing the street.

I would not have posted this letter if I thought that it was a good excuse for accidents. There just aren't any. Safety is and always will be job one, Unfortunately, Things can fail even in the most maintained environments. Sometimes a culture of cutbacks can cause these things to happen prematurely. Let's hope that this is not the case.

 

[lazyboy97o]

If I may...

That's all nice and dandy, about being sensitive to the managerial side of things.

Indeed, now that I understand the financial plight this billion dollar profit corporation is going through, I shall be sensitive when my children die on an attraction because they skimmed on safety maintenance.
I mean, what can one expect for those $600 a day for a family of four anyway.

:fork:

Except that French regulations prevent Disneyland Paris from being part of the massive The Walt Disney Company. It is owned and operated Euro Disney SCA that is tied up in a tangled mess of regulations and agreements that have proved to be less than favorable.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Except that French regulations prevent Disneyland Paris from being part of the massive The Walt Disney Company. It is owned and operated Euro Disney SCA that is tied up in a tangled mess of regulations and agreements that have proved to be less than favorable.

True. I'd imagine the Disney Company has the exclusive management contract of some sort with EDSCA, so they run the park and are responsible keep it safe regardless as a vendor or partner to the ED SCA. I recall as an Imagineer I was still paid by the WDC but probably billed to the entity in France. They had to pay French taxes for me. Having said that, safety is still has to be the number one priority for any company.

TDL had a deal whereas they owned the park and we were there as part of a management contract tied to the franchise and the company got royalties on everything.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Homework. John Hench

More great required reading. This article on Hench is very good.

http://micechat.com/forums/blogs/samland/1815-disneyland-art-reassurance.html

I can tell you some John Hench stories later on of you want.

 

[Disneyparksgeek]

^ Eddie, I would love to hear some John Hench stories. He had a great sense of how to use color. Thanks for posting the article.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

^ Eddie, I would love to hear some John Hench stories. He had a great sense of how to use color. Thanks for posting the article.

One thing you may not read about John Hench is that he was an amateur Palm Reader. He specialized in reading those of attractive young women and they loved him holding their hand and reading it. But he was pretty well known for this.

He was known to be pretty critical (tough audience) back in the days of WED, so i avoided him because of that reputation, but he mellowed alot in his senior years and I did not know that. Once we met, I was not intimidated as much and he was a great guy! I had the honor of knowing the mellow, wise Hench and he took lots of time to visit with me anytime. He used to tell me not to be "afraid" of color and so I wasn't. Very involved in the color styling of the Hotels and Cruise ships. We ran our DLP color boards by him and usually got approved! My new found lack of fear led to us using all of these colors they had not yet tried on a facade like maroon or black. He loved it. I was shocked as they were emotionally pessimistic. He was known to have a building repainted several times till he thought it was just right. Love that. He taught me to appreciate color and the psychology of theme parks. He was always working and that kept him going. When he painted or drew Mickey he spoke of him as if he was real, with an affection. His book is very good fundamental reading. A very nice and generous man.

He even travelled with Salvador Dali!

 

[cupanudles]

Eddie, did you ever see Ward Kimball at WED?

 

[Disneyparksgeek]

He was known to be pretty critical (tough audience) back in the days of WED, so i avoided him because of that reputation, but he mellowed alot in his senior years and I did not know that. Once we met i was not intimidated as much and he was a great guy! I had the honor of knowing the mellow, wise Hench and he took lots of time to visit with me whenever I wanted. He used to tell me not to be afraid of color and so I wasn't. Very involved in the color styling of the hotels and cruise ships. We ran our DLP color boards by him and usually got approved! My new found lack of fear led to us using all of these colors they had no yet tried on a facade like maroon or black. He loved it. i was shocked as they were a bit pessimistic. He was known to have a building repainted several times till he thought it was just right. Love that. He taught me to appreciate color and the psychology of theme parks. He was always working and that kept him going. When he painted or drew Mickey he spoke of him as if he was real, with an affection. His book is very good fundamental reading. A very nice and generous man.

I've heard that he was very tough. Don't blame you for being intimidated :animwink:. I never knew that he had a little bit of input on the DLP color schemes, that's pretty interesting. That's neat that he had influence on you, seeing pictures of how amazing the colors look at Main Street in DLP, it's more obvious now after you said so. Glad to hear he was a nice guy, because some people made him seem a little too critical. But hey, I guess you are most critical about the things you love.

As cupanoodles asked, did you ever see Ward Kimball? He seemed like an eccentric individual and a really nice guy. I've seen him in his later years on Shoot the Moon for Space Mountain, and in his earlier days on Man in Space. I got the impression he was a very creative individual. If you did meet him or if you have stories about him, I would love to hear them.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

I've heard that he was very tough. Don't blame you for being intimidated :animwink:. I never knew that he had a little bit of input on the DLP color schemes, that's pretty interesting. That's neat that he had influence on you, seeing pictures of how amazing the colors look at Main Street in DLP, it's more obvious now after you said so. Glad to hear he was a nice guy, because some people made him seem a little too critical. But hey, I guess you are most critical about the things you love.

He could be harsh, but i never experienced it. One time he took me aside after seeing Main Street and it's gaslit arcades, all the detail, etc. and asked he how I got away with it! So he liked what we were doing and respected that. Maybe that kept me in good graces? I found him to be encouraging like Obi Wan, and Herbie was Yoda for sure.

Katie Olson was the WDI color stylist and worked with all of us designers. I loved working with her and her husband John. She would produce color boards (elevations) and the final specs for us. So Main Street was a collaboration with her. She had to run everything by Hench, and so in we'd go. I really enjoyed working with her. MSUSA needed to appeal to Europeans subconsciously, so I researched rich historic colors from their past, but uniquely combined them in a naive, American way.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Eddie, did you ever see Ward Kimball at WED?

No. Not at WED. I shook his hand and first met him at an Animator's Awards Dinner prior to joining WED. Marc Davis was there too, Chuck Jones, all of them. I worked for Gary Goddard, an Ex Imagineer doing theme design. (This is like 1983). I saw him seated at a big roundtable with a bunch of other legends, and made a beeline toward him. Cutting in, I nervously introduced myself to Ward and told him who I worked for, and he laughed, chiding "Oh, you mean you work at the poor man's WED" meaning I was second rate. Nodding, that was it. I wilted on the spot with not much more to say. Oh well. He was intimidating, but I was not giving up on him. I'm sure he had no idea, just a funny guy. VERY outspoken, that's just the way he was. Here he is on "You bet your life". http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lc9mn3fDWQc&feature=related

So later on, working at the "Real WED", found myself knee deep in the DLP Steam Train design and wanted to do something historically richer that what we had done at Disneyland. I was searching for the emotional essence of Main Street and did not want to literally copy WDW. Marty suggested asking Ward for advice and run my approach by him. Getting the guts to call him was one thing, but once he was on the phone he was reluctantly helpful. Our call spanned lots of MS things as I remember. We covered the El Train which he thought was interesting, but did not offer that much other than to look at the "Toonerville Trolley", a cartoon. I had hoped he'd come in and work with me, but he was retired and didn't have much interest at that time. The call ended with some good advice and he was relatively helpful. Ward had discovered a film or something like that, "A Trip down Market Street" that he suggested I watch as research for Main Street. It's here for you to see. It's awesome. He used it in "World of Motion". Ward was an eccentric treasure to Walt, an original. So sharp. I think I just blew it with him. Herb Ryman and I connected much better.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uINgSqEU26A&feature=related

I always felt he thought I was an idiot and at a gushing 24 when we shook hands, I probably was. I tried to ask intelligent questions, but could never get past his kurt answers. He got along great with the Kirks and they had a better relationship with him. So I know it's possible, but it never got there for me. I think I was just too intimidated and he knew it. He was an outstanding talent for sure. I wish we could have bottled his enthusiasm for the 1890's and spread it across Main Street.

PS- I wish creative sessions were really this productive!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iMy38ESTsHA&feature=related

 

[xdan0920]

More great required reading. This article on Hench is very good.

http://micechat.com/forums/blogs/samland/1815-disneyland-art-reassurance.html

I can tell you some John Hench stories later on of you want.

Thanks for the link Eddie. That was a great read.

One thing that stood out to me was at the end of the article the quote, “Walt was hands-on with everything at Disneyland. This was his park, his dream. I always believed the reason Walt built Disneyland was that he wanted one.”

When you were with WED is that how you looked at design? Were you designing attractions and areas that you yourself would want? And just hoping that the public would take to your vision. Or were you designing specifically thinking of what the public would want?

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Thanks for the link Eddie. That was a great read.

One thing that stood out to me was at the end of the article the quote, “Walt was hands-on with everything at Disneyland. This was his park, his dream. I always believed the reason Walt built Disneyland was that he wanted one.”

When you were with WED is that how you looked at design? Were you designing attractions and areas that you yourself would want? And just hoping that the public would take to your vision. Or were you designing specifically thinking of what the public would want?

Right or wrong, I still pretty much only design things I'd go to. You think of wether your taste is broad enough to be popular and you widen or make something more accessable, but I pretty much have to find something I like about a project to work on it. Main Street ( once the 20's theme was shelved) was depressing until we found a way to "reinvent" it a bit without them knowing it. You also have to sense when something does not connect with people and position it in a way that does. Here's an example.

Music on Space Mountain.

Michael Eisner wanted it to be classical and recognizable as in the Movie 2001. I thought that was too slow and boring and kids would hate that, (and so did I) but we had to do it anyway. So I had just seen "Pulp Fiction" and reheard the Surf sound of D-I-C-K Dale who did the opening title track "Miserlou". I was listening to his shred guitar stuff while racing around in my car at lunch. His leads were perfect for taking corners at high speed in my car so I'd just go tearing around to it. Sometimes I'd play the Batman theme and race to that with my friends as it has the sound effects of the Batmobile in there too. Eventually it occurred to me that I was sub consciously demoing the Space Mountain music in my VW Rabbit at lunch! What the ride needed was guitar licks synced to the curves (i.e. Think LZ "Whole Lotta Love" slide). Maybe sound effects at launch like the Batmobile? But what about the classical music thing?

I loved the music in the France film (Camille Saint Saens, Aquarium) as it was magical and space like, so maybe you could score Dale's sound to that melody and get around the slowness of classical music? It would be recognizable and meet the criteria. At first the internal buzz was not good. Surf music on Space Mountain? What does that have to do with Space? let's do John Williams. Then a TV show called "3rd Rock from the Sun" did exactly the same thing using surf music against space footage as their opening! Then it was ok, as some else had done it. I hate that.

That's what we did and had something that kids saw as the fresh hip sound they associate with "Pulp Fiction", and Dad saw it as retro surf " D. Dale and the Deltones". So in a way, it was something that was organic to me, but at the same time it responds to the audience in different ways and you plan for that.

 

[Disneyparksgeek]

Music on Space Mountain.

Michael Eisner wanted it to be classical and recognizable as in the Movie 2001. I thought that was too slow and boring and kids would hate that, (and so did I) but we had to do it anyway. So I had just seen "Pulp Fiction" and reheard the Surf sound of D-I-C-K Dale who did the opening title track "Miserlou". I was listening to his shred guitar stuff while racing around in my car at lunch. His leads were perfect for taking corners at high speed in my car so I'd just go tearing around to it. Sometimes I'd play the Batman theme and race to that with my friends as it has the sound effects of the Batmobile in there too. Eventually it occurred to me that I was sub consciously demoing the Space Mountain music in my VW Rabbit at lunch! What the ride needed was guitar licks synced to the curves (i.e. Think LZ "Whole Lotta Love" slide). Maybe sound effects at launch like the Batmobile? But what about the classical music thing?

I loved the music in the France film (Camille Saint Saens, Aquarium) as it was magical and space like, so maybe you could score Dale's sound to that melody and get around the slowness of classical music? It would be recognizable and meet the criteria. At first the internal buzz was not good. Surf music on Space Mountain? What does that have to do with Space? let's do John Williams. Then a TV show called "3rd Rock from the Sun" did exactly the same thing using surf music against space footage as their opening! Then it was ok, as some else had done it. I hate that.

That's what we did and had something that kids saw as the fresh hip sound they associate with "Pulp Fiction", and Dad saw it as retro surf " D. Dale and the Deltones". So in a way, it was something that was organic to me, but at the same time it responds to the audience in different ways and you plan for that.

That's really interesting, I never knew that. Thank you for sharing.

 

[Disneyparksgeek]

Eddie, I was just on the Neverland files reading up on Sci-Fi City at Tokyo Disneyland. It said you were the designer for it, I was wondering if you could tell us a little more about that project, like how you came up with it, and what the OLC executives thought about the project, and why it didn't go through. I'm sorry if this has already been discussed, but I can't really read 200 more pages than what I've already read through.