Eddie Sotto's take on the current state of the parks

[AEfx]

Thanks Redshock, I'll have to check some of those out when I go back to check out Mermaid later this year. I knew about the card - I heard you can still get one at the gift shop if you ask, but I just didn't have the time or patience for that one, haha.

As to the queue, it is long, especially for Disneyland. And you are right, the walk back was really the "worst" part. But...it just didn't seem to me as crazy long as people made it out to be. I'm sure their perception is based on comparison to the other Disneyland queues, but when you look at, say, Nemo at Epcot, it doesn't seem nearly that epic. (Though to be fair, I found much of what I heard about Disneyland - like the holy "POTC" that supposedly made ours look like "Readers Digest" - to be exaggerated greatly.)

 

[redshoesrock]

Though to be fair, I found much of what I heard about Disneyland - like the holy "POTC" that supposedly made ours look like "Readers Digest" - to be exaggerated greatly.)

I agree with you about DL's Pirates; while clearly the better ride (and also figuring out where they got the idea for the San Angel Inn/El Rio del Tiempo combination) isn't blowing-out-of-the-water better. We miss the first drop, some skeletons in caverns with gold, and the going-back-up part at the end with the drunk pirates shooting each other. Would be nice to have, but "eh".

 

[KevinYee]

The descending blocks effect never, ever worked for me... and I was a Cast Member in 1995, visiting every week. I tried to step on every diamond-shaped stone I could. The story told at the time (who knows if it was true) was that the effect was PLANNED but never implemented. Supposedly, due to budget cuts.

I would rather have had the "Glory Hole" experience (inspired by the Knott's Berry Farm mine train) - where the mine ride meets the jeep ride meets the train meets the Jungle Cruise. Holy cow, would that have been awesome!

 

[Eddie Sotto]

The descending blocks effect never, ever worked for me... and I was a Cast Member in 1995, visiting every week. I tried to step on every diamond-shaped stone I could. The story told at the time (who knows if it was true) was that the effect was PLANNED but never implemented. Supposedly, due to budget cuts.

I would rather have had the "Glory Hole" experience (inspired by the Knott's Berry Farm mine train) - where the mine ride meets the jeep ride meets the train meets the Jungle Cruise. Holy cow, would that have been awesome!

Yeah. I would have loved taking the guests there by boat and asking who wants to get off at the archeological camp to search for Dr Jones. A true adventure. As you all know, the only reason the queue is that long is that there was no other way to get you down to the show building outside the berm.

 

[Cosmic Commando]

Yeah. I would have loved taking the guests there by boat and asking who wants to get off at the archeological camp to search for Dr Jones. A true adventure. As you all know, the only reason the queue is that long is that there was no other way to get you down to the show building outside the berm.

If I'm understanding you, the Jungle Cruise would have had an optional exit that dropped you off in the queue of Indy? I've seen the concept art with the mine train, jeep ride, boats (and railroad I believe?) all going through the same building together. Epic. I had never heard this bit of info before. Is it strange to say that I hope it's true to make a plan that will never be implemented even better?

 

[Eddie Sotto]

If I'm understanding you, the Jungle Cruise would have had an optional exit that dropped you off in the queue of Indy? I've seen the concept art with the mine train, jeep ride, boats (and railroad I believe?) all going through the same building together. Epic. I had never heard this bit of info before. Is it strange to say that I hope it's true to make a plan that will never be implemented even better?

My favorite proposal used the JC as a bit of a transportation system taking you deep into the Jungle. The African Veldt would go away and be the base Camp for Indy. Guests would have the option of being dropped off there. Imagine the "Apocalypse Now" type reveal of this thriving base camp skirting a temple in the mist! (This was when it was half walk thru, half reversible ore car ride). Guests returning could hop back on or venture back down a jungle path in a similar route that the queue takes now. If the JC is down the path becomes two way.

 

[ChrisFL]

My favorite proposal used the JC as a bit of a transportation system taking you deep into the Jungle. The African Veldt would go away and be the base Camp for Indy. Guests would have the option of being dropped off there. Imagine the "Apocalypse Now" type reveal of this thriving base camp skirting a temple in the mist! (This was when it was half walk thru, half reversible ore car ride). Guests returning could hop back on or venture back down a jungle path in a similar route that the queue takes now. If the JC is down the path becomes two way.

I noticed when studying all of the transportation options from Disneyland and the WDW parks, that most of them only have one stop, other than the train, monorail and skyway...the peoplemover, submarine voyage, autopia cars, jungle cruise, riverboat, etc. etc. all have only one stop.

Do you know if there anything that prevented from those attractions from having more than one stop besides budget/need? The peoplemover (in DL specifically) seemed like it could have benefitted from more than one stop.

 

[lazyboy97o]

I think the Indiana Jones Adventure queue seems so long because it is not actually being used. if it were actually used as a queue, that allowed people to slow down and explore all that there is, instead of just walking out of the park and back, it would be a much better experience.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

I noticed when studying all of the transportation options from Disneyland and the WDW parks, that most of them only have one stop, other than the train, monorail and skyway...the peoplemover, submarine voyage, autopia cars, jungle cruise, riverboat, etc. etc. all have only one stop.

Do you know if there anything that prevented from those attractions from having more than one stop besides budget/need? The peoplemover (in DL specifically) seemed like it could have benefitted from more than one stop.

They are not really viewed as a transportation system (as a Train or Trolly), but as a vehicle within an larger experience. There really is no explorable destination as the "journey" itself is why you are boarding it. As an exception to this, Tom Sawyer Island would be "destination" for the rafts or the Steam Train is a guided tour of the whole park, etc.

 

[AEfx]

I agree with you about DL's Pirates; while clearly the better ride (and also figuring out where they got the idea for the San Angel Inn/El Rio del Tiempo combination) isn't blowing-out-of-the-water better. We miss the first drop, some skeletons in caverns with gold, and the going-back-up part at the end with the drunk pirates shooting each other. Would be nice to have, but "eh".

I'm so glad someone else gets this, LOL.

I've been bashed to heck before, but my sentiments exactly. I was told my whole life that it was some vastly superior thing, and my experience was like, "Eh?"

To be honest, I prefer ours because it is a more cohesive experience. You go into a pirate bunker and ride a pirate ride. In CA you enter some LA mansion, go through the bayou, and then go on a pirate ride. And a lot of the additional ride length at Disneyland is the empty caverns at the beginning, and the fact the boats go more slowly.

It's great, just not the "wow blows WDW's version out of the water!" that everyone tells you.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

I'm so glad someone else gets this, LOL.

I've been bashed to heck before, but my sentiments exactly. I was told my whole life that it was some vastly superior thing, and my experience was like, "Eh?"

To be honest, I prefer ours because it is a more cohesive experience. You go into a pirate bunker and ride a pirate ride. In CA you enter some LA mansion, go through the bayou, and then go on a pirate ride. And a lot of the additional ride length at Disneyland is the empty caverns at the beginning, and the fact the boats go more slowly.

It's great, just not the "wow blows WDW's version out of the water!" that everyone tells you.

DLP attempts to arrange these elements in a way that follows some of the early concept art. You are hoisted into the fort where the attack is going on and the pirates are taking it, the town scenes, burning, arsenal, skeletons, falls at the end to escape.

 

[flavious27]

I'm so glad someone else gets this, LOL.

I've been bashed to heck before, but my sentiments exactly. I was told my whole life that it was some vastly superior thing, and my experience was like, "Eh?"

To be honest, I prefer ours because it is a more cohesive experience. You go into a pirate bunker and ride a pirate ride. In CA you enter some LA mansion, go through the bayou, and then go on a pirate ride. And a lot of the additional ride length at Disneyland is the empty caverns at the beginning, and the fact the boats go more slowly.

It's great, just not the "wow blows WDW's version out of the water!" that everyone tells you.

WDW's version is a shortened version but I think it works more because there is more consistent theming.

 

[AEfx]

DLP attempts to arrange these elements in a way that follows some of the early concept art. You are hoisted into the fort where the attack is going on and the pirates are taking it, the town scenes, burning, arsenal, skeletons, falls at the end to escape.

That sounds really neat. DLP is one of the places I most want to go (every time I mention going to France and mention DLP I get dirty looks, though, haha) and it's because my impression is that so many of our favorite rides are no so much larger in scope, but redone with early 90's tech. I also hear great things about Pan and Snow White dark rides (sword fight in Pan, etc).

Are there significant effects differences between them?

 

[flavious27]

That sounds really neat. DLP is one of the places I most want to go (every time I mention going to France and mention DLP I get dirty looks, though, haha) and it's because my impression is that so many of our favorite rides are no so much larger in scope, but redone with early 90's tech. I also hear great things about Pan and Snow White dark rides (sword fight in Pan, etc).

Are there significant effects differences between them?

I want to be one of those annoying Americans wearing a t-shirt with this logo:

 

[redshoesrock]

WDW's version is a shortened version but I think it works more because there is more consistent theming.

Personally I think it's a little too jarring, especially the ending. Everything's on fire, the prisoners are trying to escape, and then "Welp, that's it!" DL's Pirates - you go around the Blue Bayou restaurant so everything seems rather normal, make the first drop, now there's eerie caverns and then you see the skeletons and pirate booty, then you drop again and now you're smack in the middle of the pirate attack. For me, it has an "Inception" feel to it; the deeper you go, the more "real" the whole pirate idea gets.

 

[MerlinTheGoat]

@Mr Eddie Sotto

May i just say it's a privilege to be able to talk to you directly, i'm a big fan of yours. I'd also like to say that as a child (and as an adult), your works brought me a great amount of joy. Many thanks for bringing joy to a kid (and now adult) with your creativity.

I'm of the opinion that the Disneyland varieties of Pirates really DO blow Magic Kingdom's out of the water. Never been on CA's, but i've seen videos of it (the first was actually on the World of Color where Walt went through a "making of" special on Pirates). and experienced Paris' firsthand. Not any sort of nostalgia to drive this opinion either, i actually went on MK's version countless times before going on Paris' or seeing CA's. Ours is just the worst by a large margin in my opinion. Enough that it irritates me. We're missing numerous scenes, one of the drops (and the drop we DO get is puny in comparison), and it's far shorter. It ends way too soon for me. It's STILL a great ride on its own merits for sure, but it just plain makes me angry after experiencing Paris' and seeing ridethroughs of CA's.

I think that Paris' is the best overall version of the attraction. It has the best queue, best front facade (fortress), skull rock and pirate ship near it, and the best order of events (IMO). It was unique to me how the events in the ride unfold exactly backwards to all the others, but in the end i felt the story progression was much more natural and made more sense that way. The lift hill being at the beginning is great buildup (and looks really cool with the mine shaft theme). There's also a new scene of a pirate fighting a civilian who resembles Will Turner. Forshadowing? Plus, the decorations of all the show scenes have FAR more detail and are much prettier to look at (feels more tropical, seems like there are more palm trees scattered around, and vegetation). Just the entire experience is awesome. Pirates in Paris is among my favorite theme park ride of all time. I really got spoiled after going on it. I'm sad to say it, but it sort of tarnished my view of Magic Kingdom's somewhat. I still like MK's, but it will always feel rushed and half-***ed to me now that i've had a taste of the real thing.

@AEfx

Peter Pan mostly seems the same going from DL to DLP, though some of the animatronics might be a bit more advanced. I forget whether there are any added scenes, i'm not sure. The vehicles have twice the capacity with two rows to each ship. The scene where Peter is at the helm of the ship has a newer VERY impressive effect where Tinkerbell sprinkles pixie dust over the ship and there's hundreds of little fiber optic bristles that light up all over the ship (this happens at DL CA, but much less impressive and not as extensive). This effect also happens at the end with the mermaids as well. Couple of pics of this effect (can't compare with seeing it in person)-
http://www.photosmagiques.com/gallery/disneyland_park/fantasyland/peter_pans_flight/DSC02196.JPG
http://static2.dmcdn.net/static/video/853/386/9683358:jpeg_preview_large.jpg?20100726112727

I'll mention that Magic Kingdom's Pan is totally different from the others. Similar scenes, but they're more clustered into what feels like a smaller and more condensed space. Somewhat different feeling ride system. I feel ours is somewhat inferior and outdated (others have better effects and animated figures). I also find the soundtrack at DL/DLP better, with a more orchestral version of "You can fly!" as well as mixing it up by using other songs from the movie as well. Our ride system is also constantly in motion and doesn't stop for load, unlike DL and DLP. Here's hoping they updated ours someday, maybe around the rumored new queue.

Snow White Paris (Blanche-Neige et les Sept Nains) lacks the new digital projection mapping applied to DL CA (during the Queen/hag transformation and the rock fall at the end). I can't say there's really much if any other differences. Maybe a couple of different lighting effects, but CA's seems to have the most up-to-date effects of them all. Paris' does have a far superior ending scene with Snow White riding off with the prince (which is in Florida's as well, but absent from CA).

Orlando's Snow White ride is rather lackluster. It's sort of "backwards" in terms of story progression and makes little sense (it used to make even less sense before they redid it completely in the early 90's to be less scary). It has some lovely and well drawn art on the wooden cutouts, but it's very outdated. Our mine scene sucks too, just painted walls. We also don't have that extra scene with the Queen in her normal non-hag form spying on the Dwarf Cottage. I'm looking forward to our new Dwarf Mine ride in Fantasyland Expansion! Unless they manage to REALLY screw it up and not have any scenes or animated models from the movie, i'll be okay with our Snow White going. Shame they can't do something cool with the old space though, like a Sleepy Beauty ride (just a meet n greet).

Pic of DLP's ending scene with Snow White and the Prince-
http://table4one.files.wordpress.com/2009/06/1-disneyland-paris-resort-64.jpg

 

[Eddie Sotto]

@Mr Eddie Sotto

May i just say it's a privilege to be able to talk to you directly, i'm a big fan of yours. I'd also like to say that as a child (and as an adult), your works brought me a great amount of joy. Many thanks for bringing joy to a kid (and now adult) with your creativity.

I'm of the opinion that the Disneyland varieties of Pirates really DO blow Magic Kingdom's out of the water. Never been on CA's, but i've seen videos of it (the first was actually on the World of Color where Walt went through a "making of" special on Pirates). and experienced Paris' firsthand. Not any sort of nostalgia to drive this opinion either, i actually went on MK's version countless times before going on Paris' or seeing CA's. Ours is just the worst by a large margin in my opinion. Enough that it irritates me. We're missing numerous scenes, one of the drops (and the drop we DO get is puny in comparison), and it's far shorter. It ends way too soon for me. It's STILL a great ride on its own merits for sure, but it just plain makes me angry after experiencing Paris' and seeing ridethroughs of CA's.

I think that Paris' is the best overall version of the attraction. It has the best queue, best front facade (fortress), skull rock and pirate ship near it, and the best order of events (IMO). It was unique to me how the events in the ride unfold exactly backwards to all the others, but in the end i felt the story progression was much more natural and made more sense that way. The lift hill being at the beginning is great buildup (and looks really cool with the mine shaft theme). There's also a new scene of a pirate fighting a civilian who resembles Will Turner. Forshadowing? Plus, the decorations of all the show scenes have FAR more detail and are much prettier to look at (feels more tropical, seems like there are more palm trees scattered around, and vegetation). Just the entire experience is awesome. Pirates in Paris is among my favorite theme park ride of all time. I really got spoiled after going on it. I'm sad to say it, but it sort of tarnished my view of Magic Kingdom's somewhat. I still like MK's, but it will always feel rushed and half-***ed to me now that i've had a taste of the real thing.

@AEfx

Peter Pan mostly seems the same going from DL to DLP, though some of the animatronics might be a bit more advanced. I forget whether there are any added scenes, i'm not sure. The vehicles have twice the capacity with two rows to each ship. The scene where Peter is at the helm of the ship has a newer VERY impressive effect where Tinkerbell sprinkles pixie dust over the ship and there's hundreds of little fiber optic bristles that light up all over the ship (this happens at DL CA, but much less impressive and not as extensive). This effect also happens at the end with the mermaids as well. Couple of pics of this effect (can't compare with seeing it in person)-
http://www.photosmagiques.com/gallery/disneyland_park/fantasyland/peter_pans_flight/DSC02196.JPG
http://static2.dmcdn.net/static/video/853/386/9683358:jpeg_preview_large.jpg?20100726112727

I'll mention that Magic Kingdom's Pan is totally different from the others. Similar scenes, but they're more clustered into what feels like a smaller and more condensed space. Somewhat different feeling ride system. I feel ours is somewhat inferior and outdated (others have better effects and animated figures). I also find the soundtrack at DL/DLP better, with a more orchestral version of "You can fly!" as well as mixing it up by using other songs from the movie as well. Our ride system is also constantly in motion and doesn't stop for load, unlike DL and DLP. Here's hoping they updated ours someday, maybe around the rumored new queue.

Snow White Paris (Blanche-Neige et les Sept Nains) lacks the new digital projection mapping applied to DL CA (during the Queen/hag transformation and the rock fall at the end). I can't say there's really much if any other differences. Maybe a couple of different lighting effects, but CA's seems to have the most up-to-date effects of them all. Paris' does have a far superior ending scene with Snow White riding off with the prince (which is in Florida's as well, but absent from CA).

Orlando's Snow White ride is rather lackluster. It's sort of "backwards" in terms of story progression and makes little sense (it used to make even less sense before they redid it completely in the early 90's to be less scary). It has some lovely and well drawn art on the wooden cutouts, but it's very outdated. Our mine scene sucks too, just painted walls. We also don't have that extra scene with the Queen in her normal non-hag form spying on the Dwarf Cottage. I'm looking forward to our new Dwarf Mine ride in Fantasyland Expansion! Unless they manage to REALLY screw it up and not have any scenes or animated models from the movie, i'll be okay with our Snow White going. Shame they can't do something cool with the old space though, like a Sleepy Beauty ride (just a meet n greet).

Pic of DLP's ending scene with Snow White and the Prince-
http://table4one.files.wordpress.com/2009/06/1-disneyland-paris-resort-64.jpg

Thank you for the kind words and welcome to the boards. We appreciate your insights and comparisons and I hope you get to experience the DL POTC attraction soon, as it is the original. I have not been on the WDw version in years, and the Paris version probably 10. My childhood memories are tied up at DL so my heart is there no matter what they do to it.

It's true that DLP has a more logical story sequence than all of them, but you do sacrifice something by messing with that. DL has a certain sense of expectation and build when you are going along looking at virtually static displays and dead pirates for about half the ride, then it reveals the awesome ship battle and the rest gets better. At DLP, you "splashdown" into the conflict so you are caught up in the aftermath of falls and maybe that scene is a bit less dramatic. Just a thought. I'm not sure that's a 100% improvement. Skeletons at the end are more logical too, but once you've seen the big stuff are they are less impressive then being part of the setup?. Not sure there either. Don't get me wrong, I love DLP version too, and Tony set out to make it the best of them all, but I think the rearranging of the scenes does have some effect on their relative value. The Restaurant is great as well.

What you say?

BTW. I think the WDW one should add a "Blue Lagoon" dining experience. My only big beef with the WDW version (and it's been forever since I've been on it) is that the unload area is right on the heels of the treasure scene. I think you need to return from that "world" with a transition of sorts as at DL, before a flashing signs tells you to get out. It's as if the curtain has barely come down and the theater is hastily turning the lights on. These small things are pretty powerful in the sequencing of a show. I think the DL version unwitting gives you lots of time to get your head into the world of Piracy and that slow build has a value.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Personally I think it's a little too jarring, especially the ending. Everything's on fire, the prisoners are trying to escape, and then "Welp, that's it!" DL's Pirates - you go around the Blue Bayou restaurant so everything seems rather normal, make the first drop, now there's eerie caverns and then you see the skeletons and pirate booty, then you drop again and now you're smack in the middle of the pirate attack. For me, it has an "Inception" feel to it; the deeper you go, the more "real" the whole pirate idea gets.

Yes. Good analogy. This is one similarity that the HM shares as well. The experience becomes richer and you begin with some simple effects and things stretching or moving and eventually everything has materialized and you are in the middle of it. The HM, like Pirates, builds to a finale and reinforces it's logic a step at a time until to can accept everything.

 

[flavious27]

BTW. I think the WDW one should add a "Blue Lagoon" dining experience. My only big beef with the WDW version (and it's been forever since I've been on it) is that the unload area is right on the heels of the treasure scene. I think you need to return from that "world" with a transition of sorts as at DL, before a flashing signs tells you to get out. It's as if the curtain has barely come down and the theater is hastily turning the lights on. These small things are pretty powerful in the sequencing of a show. I think the DL version unwitting gives you lots of time to get your head into the world of Piracy and that slow build has a value.

Well we have that with small world and village haus.

It looks pretty tight around POTC to add any kind of restaurant with a reveal of the ride, though yeah the ending can use some work.

Is there really any ride in MK that could that kind of reveal added to it?

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Well we have that with small world and village haus.

It looks pretty tight around POTC to add any kind of restaurant with a reveal of the ride, though yeah the ending can use some work.

Is there really any ride in MK that could that kind of reveal added to it?

Space Mountain? Before I had a design job anywhere (1978) I made a model of a Starship type Dance Club that was separate but partially looked into SM.