Eddie Sotto's take on the current state of the parks

[Eddie Sotto]

Hi Eddie I am currently watching "Waking Sleeping Beauty" and the well known names in Disney Animation (Don Hanh, Kirk Wise,etc. are reminiscing about their memories of former Disney President Frank Wells and I was wondering if you knew him and had any stories about him since he is probably one of the biggest unsung heroes in Disney history considering his death led to Michael Eisner's management downfall.

I did know Frank, we got along very well and I really admired him. He'd invite me up to his office at the Team Disney building ever so often to just sit there and talk about ideas..He loved creativity, had a great attitude, and was very humble. One of those ideas was the "artisan sketch watch", something that he helped me get through the merchandise division at DL. I had the first one made for him but he never lived to see it. A great loss.

 

[Slowjack]

I think one thing a lot of people forget when talking about the company focusing on each quarter and trying to please the shareholders is that doing otherwise would be illegal.

(emphasis added)

Let's not go nuts here. The Board has a responsibility to the shareholders, but that has little effect on day-to-day decisions. Usually that occurs because of a major event like a buyout offer that the shareholders want and the board does not. That's a long way from saying that everything they do must please the shareholders.

In any case, nothing requires a board of directors to preference short-term success over long-term. They do that for other reasons than legal obligation.

For the record, I'm a Disney shareholder myself--in it for the long term!

 

[Malvito]

We had our own little debate right here on this thread a week ago. It all began with Post 4203.

The irony being my own participation, towards the end of that particular thread.

Trying to jump in and participate in other threads is having a diliatory affect on my short-term memory.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

(emphasis added)

Let's not go nuts here. The Board has a responsibility to the shareholders, but that has little effect on day-to-day decisions. Usually that occurs because of a major event like a buyout offer that the shareholders want and the board does not. That's a long way from saying that everything they do must please the shareholders.

In any case, nothing requires a board of directors to preference short-term success over long-term. They do that for other reasons than legal obligation.

For the record, I'm a Disney shareholder myself--in it for the long term!

It's interesting that internet companies like Amazon lose money not just for quarters but for years, because they are out to capture the market share long term. Eventually they come out on top. I think the Disney difference was that in the past they placed their own stake into the ground stating that the WDC was out to "create 20% growth every year" and you only did through quarter to quarter increases that eventually were not sustainable. Culturally toxic. More importantly, we are talking about short term thinking or strategies that lead to "band aid" or exploitive programs or that do not add intrinsic value to the brand.

 

[lazyboy97o]

Maybe you're right, i'm not sure about the City, was not that close to that project. Politics may have played into it, but a huge failing theme park with only 2 popular attractions dragging down the resort had to be the prime reason. I guess the fact that so much money went into "placemaking" tells me that they now understand that the richness of good environments means something beyond what you can market. Not the case prior. Beyond the E ticket additions, you can't really market alot of what they are doing at DCA. The new entrance, or the whole character/victorian overlay to Paradise Pier does not really make those Carny rides anything you can attract guests with, but makes it all warmer and more Disney quality. That was encouraging to me and says something about the management's strategy.

This is why I think Phase II will be the really interesting part of the whole equation. Will Disney be okay with not completing Golden State and Hollywoodland because those areas were more fleshed out to begin with and attendance is now significantly improved? I wonder how much has been learned, going back to that modernism vs postmoderism issue, I think a lot of the placemaking has had a bigger emphasis on Disney history than creating a place that looks and feel real, lived in. I kind of fear that Disney will accept an experience that ultimately lacks cohesion because lush scenery and ample ornamentation appear to be doing the job just fine.

(emphasis added)

Let's not go nuts here. The Board has a responsibility to the shareholders, but that has little effect on day-to-day decisions. Usually that occurs because of a major event like a buyout offer that the shareholders want and the board does not. That's a long way from saying that everything they do must please the shareholders.

In any case, nothing requires a board of directors to preference short-term success over long-term. They do that for other reasons than legal obligation.

For the record, I'm a Disney shareholder myself--in it for the long term!

You're right, to people who see Disney as just another job and not something they love and have worked within and up, then their best interest is short term gain, when they seek to benefit. Disney does need more people who have a passion for what they want to do, but even then it will not be easy to keep things in the proper balance. I think Roy is very under appreciated as he was constantly working hard to defend the abilities of his brother and the artists he brought in to the company.

It's interesting that internet companies like Amazon lose money not just for quarters but for years, because they are out to capture the market share long term. Eventually they come out on top. I think the Disney difference was that in the past they placed their own stake into the ground stating that the WDC was out to "create 20% growth every year" and you only did through quarter to quarter increases that eventually were not sustainable. Culturally toxic. More importantly, we are talking about short term thinking or strategies that lead to "band aid" or exploitive programs or that do not add intrinsic value to the brand.

The misbelief in massive, sustained growth continually seems to be a lesson that nobody wants to actually learn, an example of history constantly repeating itself. Sometimes it is bad, because it places huge expectations that cannot be met and sometimes it creates optimism and hope, like believing that the next 60 years of transportation will be as fast changing and revolutionary as the previous and create a "world on the move".

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Trip Report

I was at the DLR, and DCA this weekend and it was VERY busy. So was DL. ElecTRONica was also happening and guests were loving it. They should keep that thing going as long as they can. Good energy at DCA. Love the victorian and 20's soundtrack music for Paradise Pier as there were some "old friends" used in DLP Main Street. Nice feel.

Going back to an earlier discussion, I think the Mermaid "pavilion" sets pretty nicely on the waterfront and works in context. When you sense it as this big beach pavilion it feels unique and even if it's massive, it kind of works in it's location. I'm hoping that scenic finishes when complete will dissolve the "shopping center" execution it has trouble shaking. It's the stucco with the big expansion joints that kind of scream that. Too early to tell, but it seems like they designed the amount of detail per linear foot to more of what "The Grove" themed shopping center has. It's nice, but not Paradise Pier quality. The scale for one is different. As of now, the applied ornament and lights need to be integrated into the stucco building so it comes together as one execution. Some of the ornament for it's scale looks a bit crude compared to other, more detailed pieces like Triton, but scenic paint can add complexity if they use it to do "ribs" on the shells, etc. The lights in the barrel vault just sit there on the stucco with no moldings or coffers to make them look natural. BTW- I'm not trying to attack something in progress, but for you future Imagineers out there, it is good to point out how you have to think of how important textures are in conveying a look or period, especially when the design is executed on such a large scale. There is lots of anything you specify. Then how to "recover" from things that are discordant. Main Street had the same issues and you use paint, signage to refocus attention, (or awnings) to tie it all in. You can cover lots of sins with a great overlay of graphic texture, of course it's better not to have to. Night lighting from the signage (not in yet) will be impressive for sure. The rendering shows it off well, so let's watch the process.

My kids and I really enjoyed the "Silly Symphony Swings". We had to ride twice. They did alot with an "off the shelf" Wave Swinger ride. The "William Tell Overture" made it fun and the kids knew the cartoon well and picked that up. Guests liked it and seemed to not mind the wait. It works better in the open air than inside the Orange. A solid C ticket.

 

[flavious27]

Dumping too much of the project would have placed Disney in a rather tight spot with the City of Anaheim, since announcing the project was a political move. It probably also helps that attendance to the park has continued to rise. I think the real key to see how long term the thinking is will be Phase II, which would come after the park has been more widely embraced and the company has fulfilled its move to protect the Resort District. I am really curious to see where Disney's California Adventure is placed on the 2010 attendance estimates.


What a surprise, more cliches that sound very much like the "We do what I want and others be damned" attitude you so often criticize.

After they open carsland, I really don't see dca getting another expansion or an refurb for awhile.

 

[redshoesrock]

I was at the DLR, and DCA this weekend and it was VERY busy. ElecTRONica was also happening and guests were loving it. Good energy at DCA.

ElecTRONica is still going on? Amazing! Does anyone know of a date when it's scheduled to end, or is it like a Captain EO thing and once people get tired of it, they'll quietly shuffle it away?

Too bad they can't port that over to Tomorrowland as an evening offering; it'd give them a reason to use that ridiculous Stitch Supergalactical Space Stage-thingy they spent all that money on and then it bombed within two months.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

ElecTRONica is still going on? Amazing! Does anyone know of a date when it's scheduled to end, or is it like a Captain EO thing and once people get tired of it, they'll quietly shuffle it away?

Too bad they can't port that over to Tomorrowland as an evening offering; it'd give them a reason to use that ridiculous Stitch Supergalactical Space Stage-thingy they spent all that money on and then it bombed within two months.

A CM told me they will likely keep it till Labor Day. I cannot imagine what they'd replace it with that would be more popular or profitable. It makes DCA a nighttime destination. The world of TRON is really cool in of itself, and this is the closest thing to a club atmosphere the park has. It sets itself apart from DL and because of the theming and entertainment with the dancers and disc wars, etc, is worth keeping. We tried to make Tomorrowland something similar back in the day with big screens, lights, etc. but this proves the idea can work.

 

[Figment571]

As to what you have said about TRON and ElecTRONica in particular I think that this shows that TRON as a franchise can be profitable even if it doesn't have a huge box office presence. Just the ideas within it and the whole feeling that it has, a bit dark, edgy, yet still accessible to everyone makes it a great fit for the parks imo. With TRON doing remarkably "meh" at the box office, do you think that Disney will pursue it other areas such as the parks in future?

 

[lazyboy97o]

Popularity not waning off, I can honestly see elecTRONica running until its infrastructure gets in the way of operating the Red Car Trolleys and parades resume running down Hollywoodland (I believe the current plan is for the fake catenary to raise up to avoid parades). Even then, things could still be moved and reconfigured.

Does anybody know who is actually behind the Red Car Trolley technology? Is this a totally in-house job or is being outsourced to somebody else? I really believe that there is a market for inductively charged streetcars. The catenary system used by electric streetcars is often considered a piece of urban blight, and the technology being used at Disney's California Adventure would make that issue irrelevant. I also think it would be an interesting technology to see in cars. Imagine being able to automatically charge electric cars while they are stopped at a light or parked in a special parking space instead of having to plug in.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Popularity not waning off, I can honestly see elecTRONica running until its infrastructure gets in the way of operating the Red Car Trolleys and parades resume running down Hollywoodland (I believe the current plan is for the fake catenary to raise up to avoid parades). Even then, things could still be moved and reconfigured.

Does anybody know who is actually behind the Red Car Trolley technology? Is this a totally in-house job or is being outsourced to somebody else? I really believe that there is a market for inductively charged streetcars. The catenary system used by electric streetcars is often considered a piece of urban blight, and the technology being used at Disney's California Adventure would make that issue irrelevant. I also think it would be an interesting technology to see in cars. Imagine being able to automatically charge electric cars while they are stopped at a light or parked in a special parking space instead of having to plug in.

There is a company in Oregon that is the only American Streetcar manufacturer and they are booked pretty solid.

 

[Mouse Detective]

Why won't Disney bring elecTRONica to Florida?
We need some nighttime action here too.

 

[WDW1974]

Originally Posted by WDW1974

To be fair, the DCA Extreme Makeover budget was approved BEFORE the economic meltdown (check with any of your buds in Glendale if you think my timeline is off). Indeed, some have speculated that it wouldn't have happened at all if the funds hadn't already been allocated when our great economic lie came home to roost.

But I definitely agree that DCA's projects are certainly long term in scope and intended impact, both creatively and financially -- which is as it should be.

This may be true, but they could have cancelled it or cut most of it (would not be the first time), but stayed the course.

As near as I can tell, they really couldn't. The BoD had already allocated the funds and they had made their big splash with the media ... not to mention that other projects that aren't part of the makeover, even though folks tend to group them together, like TSMM and WoC were already on the way and building up a wave of goodwill toward the company.

I strongly believe nothing short of a domestic terrorist attack or natural disaster would have derailed this once the vault was opened.

Disney doesn't build $300 million plus attractions every day, after all!

I do know Bob Iger, and as far as I can tell he does care about quality and cleanliness. He pushed to get the money to clean up the park for DL's 50th. That says something.

I'm sure Bob cares. To what degree he cares would be something I question. I'd also wonder just how up on things he may be. Folks who enjoy the parks don't necessarily get that they are one cog (a large one, but a cog nonetheless) in TWDC's engine. I have never heard that Bob pushed for the money to get DL in shape for the 50th. I always heard Matt was tireless in his efforts and that Marty pushed as well. Of course, no matter who was responsible, it was going to happen because they had a media smash for the B-Day and they couldn't showcase a park falling apart. It's the same reason why DLP went from ghetto in places to almost like new from 2005 to 2007 for the 15th Anniversary.

You are right, he is a businessman and as one, I thought he did a wise thing by acquiring Pixar and Lassiter. If you are not a creative visionary, you buy one versus trying to be King Lear. Wise. Does he do safe things? Yes, sometimes, but he is charged with growing the business, so in some ways it's sequelling yourself to death, in others is venturing out into new areas. They have done both. He has abandoned the cheap way out with the DCA type parks, the Cruise ships show that they will spend for the brand. The old Disney would have just copied (or cheapened) the first ship design for the new ones, instead, they reinvented it again and it was done by WDI. A good sign to me. WDW may be the neglected cash cow, so they are hopefully going to focus more on it.

I think making Pixar an official part of the family (bringing John Lasseter and the Emeryville brain trust with it) was very smart. No doubt. I also think it was a no-brainer. I'm less enamored by spending $4 billion for Marvel, which feels very out of place (Spidey and IronMan toys on a Fantasyland shelf at the exit to PhilharMagic in HK??!?). Time will tell on that one. I hope you're right about not building parks on the cheap anymore, and we'll see on that one shortly (I do hope that what I've seen isn't old art or stuff being leaked to see where it appears and comments on it)

I have no window into the Chinese government and you may be 100% right. Hear this out. It's true that they are being pushed to do more post HKDL, but as I've said before, management has felt the pain of under designed and capitalized projects that don't perform, the balance sheet is full of them. So Chinese or not, I don't they would have done another "Disneyland Lite" or "Studio" as they are fiscally toxic. Of course, they would not go so far as to go down the DLP or TDS $$$$$ path either.

I think when you are opening in a new market (say like HK) you need to go all out. It's easier to go cheaper when you're opening a second, third or fourth gate.

I hope Shanghai is (as I've been told) a lot closer to a DLP than a HKDL.

 

[WDW1974]

Originally Posted by WDW1974
Those would be a good place ... to start!!!



I share some cautious optimism, but I can't get too excited when the same folks are running the same parks and resort. If WDI and the 'high command' know there have been 15 years of bad management, then one would naturally wonder why those people haven't been replaced.

Ah, a crack in the armor. Every contribution of yours I read always seems to have this at its foundation. I suspect WDW used to feed your DES until you overplayed it and now you blame management.

I don't speak JT-ese. What is DES? What are you talking about?

But keep in mind almost all of the problems you list, from closing the DH to the Veranda to WoL to Horizons to the scaling back of so much of DAK happened under Eisner. Yet you seem incapable of blaming that CEO and instead continually blame his legacy on current management. I am not an Eisner basher as he did some amazing things but at the same time he left serious structual issues in every division. These have been very difficult and extremely expensive for Disney to fix. Iger has been the leader who has just about completed the task. That you don't recognize that proves you either have an incredible 'blind spot' or an agenda of some sort. This is why I was willing to challange so much of what you write.

I know my timeline just fine. I don't blame either Eisner or Iger for day-to-day minituae of running theme parks because (this might shock you) they aren't involved. Major capital decisions like building DAK or the Fantasyland redo? Sure. Closing an attraction or cutting a budget usually happens below the CEO, often several layers below.

And as much as I like Eisner personally, and feel he and Frank and Roy and Jeffrey really saved the company in the 1980s, I'm not blind to his faults or the fact his last 5-6 years at the company were mostly a disaster.

But I also don't view Iger with pixie dust in my eyes, either. He's done some good, some bad and some the jury's out on ... but he's been no savior of Disney either.

You seem to miss the very point I was bringing out above. If Iger had an issue with P&R management, then he would have made significant changes and he didn't. The same folks who held positions under Eisner do under Iger. Well, except for Tom McAlpin (who with Matt Ouimet and a few others helped build DCL into the ship-shape operation it is) who was forced out and replaced by Karl Holz, another Eisner/Pressler/Rasulo 'yes man'.

As for the Diamond Horseshoe, I think it makes a great case study. Again I would remind you it went away under Eisner. But there is a much bigger lesson to learn as to why it won't return.

That lesson is that Disney would rather pay teens dressed as foamheads slightly more than minimum wage rather than pay professional/unionized entertainers. That's why DH was closed and why it won't return.

The days of the mostly passive entertainment experience are dying. People demand interactive participatory experiences more and more. Sitting in front of a movie screen, television or stage where the guest is largely just an observer, are not what people want with rare exceptions.

Yeah. Sure. This is the same BS that people have said for decades, first about radio than about network TV ... and who could forget how video was going to kill the movie-going experience?

People still watch TV, albeit not always at the same time thanks to DVR. They still go to movies when there's something worth seeing like Avatar or Alice or TS 3 or True Grit and not so much when something's overhyped mediocre crap ... and the lights aren't about to go out on Broadway anytime soon.

DH did involve the audience some but not like Hoop-Dee-Doo or the AC. It takes time to bring the audience in as they are able to do at dinner shows which is why DH could never repeat that formula. So I am certain the days of such shows are over. If it isn't interactive I doubt it even gets past blue sky anymore. Blame video games or the desert much of television became but don't blame Iger. Unless you think he is partly responsible for the decline of television entertainment. :lol: I think that problem is much bigger than Iger.

DH's only failure from a TDO perspective, other than the cost of paying real entertainers, real wages with real benefits would be that DH was never going to bring in the $60 a head (have no idea if this is even close to the cost of Hoop-Dee-Doo now). While DH served food and beverage, it was simple quick serve fare and many people watched the show without having anything. The show was popular right until they axed it.

I know you will ignore this but others won't. Mission accomplished.

I don't ignore anyone here, let alone when they spout misinformation or play fast and loose with reality!

 

[SeaCastle]

People still watch TV, albeit not always at the same time thanks to DVR. They still go to movies when there's something worth seeing like Avatar or Alice or TS 3 or True Grit and not so much when something's overhyped mediocre crap ... and the lights aren't about to go out on Broadway anytime soon.

Nothing to add here, I just enjoyed the Miami 2017 reference.

 

[lazyboy97o]

There is a company in Oregon that is the only American Streetcar manufacturer and they are booked pretty solid.

If United Streetcar or any of the other worldwide streetcar manufacturers are working with Disney I really wish it was advertised as being shown outside the park as a demonstration unit. Though I would probably suspect Siemens as being the more likely manufacturer due to the existing relationship. The idea of Disney using local, small fabricators and essentially building this thing in-house just seems a little odd compared to how things tend to operate today.

Speaking of transit companies, do you know anything about the relationship between Disney and Bombardier? Ever so often I see something about how the Mark VIs ended up creating a bad relationship between the two.

 

[flavious27]

Why won't Disney bring elecTRONica to Florida?
We need some nighttime action here too.

That would violate the no cloning rule. Also, if they were going to do electroinca at wdw, it would have already been finding an use for the old theater area.

 

[WDW1974]

Nothing to add here, I just enjoyed the Miami 2017 reference.

At least someone got it ...

 

[lazyboy97o]

Why won't Disney bring elecTRONica to Florida?
We need some nighttime action here too.

Guests want more shopping and dining options.