Eddie Sotto's take on the current state of the parks

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ChrisFL

Premium Member

I always laugh to myself whenever I see one of the Disneyland parks with a bandstand/gazebo in the middle of town square....after watching some of the film posted on youtube showing timelapse footage of the original Disneyland being built. I believe someone posted it here a while back...

The gazebo was being moved all over the place until finally they decided to move it out of town square completely so people could view the castle better, IIRC
 

Eddie Sotto

Premium Member
While it's likely not going to be ready with the rest of the expansion, I would think that Rapunzel is a strong candidate to be the theme around whatever Dark Ride replaced Snow White's Scary Adventures.

Top 5 rejected Tangled/Rapunzel based attraction ideas.

1. "Tower of Tie-ins" Guests fall 50 stories thru mindless "Tangled" marketing promotions. Interactive buttons allow each guest to "decide" how to market the movie.

2. "Adventure thru Thinner Space" -Guests get lost in an enchanted forest of "pattern balding" presented by SuperCuts

3. "Another Princess- the Ride" presented by Mattel. This time the Toy Store comes first!

4. "Lice Mountain" Guests become toboggan bound lice in a High speed thrill ride down Rapunzel's curly locks. Presented by Head and Shoulders, hosted by Fabio.

5. "Winnie the Shampoo's "Tangled" Adventure"- Pooh grows an endless beard and joins the fun in this "dark ride meets beard climbing wall in 3D, RFID, free ranging vehicle, meet and greet with a store at the end mashup".

BONUS- "Disney Princess' World of Hair Color" presented by Breck. Watch the fountains of DCA "rinse out" Rapunzel's and the other Princess's true colors! 35 unique hair colors from Ursula Umber to Ariel Auburn!! Is Ariel really a redhead? Only Mickey knows for sure! In Blond-o-vision.
 

redshoesrock

Active Member
Top 5 rejected Tangled/Rapunzel based attraction ideas.

1. "Tower of Tie-ins" Guests fall 50 stories thru mindless "Tangled" marketing promotions. Interactive buttons allow each guest to "decide" how to market the movie.

2. "Adventure thru Thinner Space" -Guests get lost in an enchanted forest of "pattern balding" presented by SuperCuts

3. "Another Princess- the Ride" presented by Mattel. This time the Toy Store comes first!

4. "Lice Mountain" Guests become toboggan bound lice in a High speed thrill ride down Rapunzel's curly locks. Presented by Head and Shoulders, hosted by Fabio.

5. "Winnie the Shampoo's "Tangled" Adventure"- Pooh grows an endless beard and joins the fun in this "dark ride meets beard climbing wall in 3D, RFID, free ranging vehicle, meet and greet with a store at the end mashup".

BONUS- "Disney Princess' World of Hair Color" presented by Breck. Watch the fountains of DCA "rinse out" Rapunzel's and the other Princess's true colors! 35 unique hair colors from Ursula Umber to Ariel Auburn!! Is Ariel really a redhead? Only Mickey knows for sure! In Blond-o-vision.

Well done! Perhaps an Honorable Mention to:

"Country Hair Jamboree" presented by Garnier - The bears go hippie and sing folk songs with a climax about how we need to "Give Fructis A Chance!"
 

flavious27

Well-Known Member
Top 5 rejected Tangled/Rapunzel based attraction ideas.

1. "Tower of Tie-ins" Guests fall 50 stories thru mindless "Tangled" marketing promotions. Interactive buttons allow each guest to "decide" how to market the movie.

2. "Adventure thru Thinner Space" -Guests get lost in an enchanted forest of "pattern balding" presented by SuperCuts

3. "Another Princess- the Ride" presented by Mattel. This time the Toy Store comes first!

4. "Lice Mountain" Guests become toboggan bound lice in a High speed thrill ride down Rapunzel's curly locks. Presented by Head and Shoulders, hosted by Fabio.

5. "Winnie the Shampoo's "Tangled" Adventure"- Pooh grows an endless beard and joins the fun in this "dark ride meets beard climbing wall in 3D, RFID, free ranging vehicle, meet and greet with a store at the end mashup".

BONUS- "Disney Princess' World of Hair Color" presented by Breck. Watch the fountains of DCA "rinse out" Rapunzel's and the other Princess's true colors! 35 unique hair colors from Ursula Umber to Ariel Auburn!! Is Ariel really a redhead? Only Mickey knows for sure! In Blond-o-vision.

Thank god that universal did not make tangled, they would have blooped some motion simulator ride into IOA somewhere.
 

flavious27

Well-Known Member
Top 5 rejected Tangled/Rapunzel based attraction ideas.

1. "Tower of Tie-ins" Guests fall 50 stories thru mindless "Tangled" marketing promotions. Interactive buttons allow each guest to "decide" how to market the movie.

2. "Adventure thru Thinner Space" -Guests get lost in an enchanted forest of "pattern balding" presented by SuperCuts

3. "Another Princess- the Ride" presented by Mattel. This time the Toy Store comes first!

4. "Lice Mountain" Guests become toboggan bound lice in a High speed thrill ride down Rapunzel's curly locks. Presented by Head and Shoulders, hosted by Fabio.

5. "Winnie the Shampoo's "Tangled" Adventure"- Pooh grows an endless beard and joins the fun in this "dark ride meets beard climbing wall in 3D, RFID, free ranging vehicle, meet and greet with a store at the end mashup".

BONUS- "Disney Princess' World of Hair Color" presented by Breck. Watch the fountains of DCA "rinse out" Rapunzel's and the other Princess's true colors! 35 unique hair colors from Ursula Umber to Ariel Auburn!! Is Ariel really a redhead? Only Mickey knows for sure! In Blond-o-vision.

So no hair drop tower then? Or a swing ride using the "hair" as the swing support and seat?
 

RSoxNo1

Well-Known Member
Top 5 rejected Tangled/Rapunzel based attraction ideas.

1. "Tower of Tie-ins" Guests fall 50 stories thru mindless "Tangled" marketing promotions. Interactive buttons allow each guest to "decide" how to market the movie.

2. "Adventure thru Thinner Space" -Guests get lost in an enchanted forest of "pattern balding" presented by SuperCuts

3. "Another Princess- the Ride" presented by Mattel. This time the Toy Store comes first!

4. "Lice Mountain" Guests become toboggan bound lice in a High speed thrill ride down Rapunzel's curly locks. Presented by Head and Shoulders, hosted by Fabio.

5. "Winnie the Shampoo's "Tangled" Adventure"- Pooh grows an endless beard and joins the fun in this "dark ride meets beard climbing wall in 3D, RFID, free ranging vehicle, meet and greet with a store at the end mashup".

BONUS- "Disney Princess' World of Hair Color" presented by Breck. Watch the fountains of DCA "rinse out" Rapunzel's and the other Princess's true colors! 35 unique hair colors from Ursula Umber to Ariel Auburn!! Is Ariel really a redhead? Only Mickey knows for sure! In Blond-o-vision.

They shouldn't have any trouble getting Troy Polomalu as a sponsor.
 

ChrisFL

Premium Member
Eddie, just a question regarding sponsors and attractions.

I'm guessing it's different in each case, but do you have any information on what the creative process is like when sponsors are setting up a pavilion?

Do the sponsors create a lot of input for the designs, or let the imagineers come to them with ideas and they approve them, or is it different each time?
 

Eddie Sotto

Premium Member
Eddie, just a question regarding sponsors and attractions.

I'm guessing it's different in each case, but do you have any information on what the creative process is like when sponsors are setting up a pavilion?

Do the sponsors create a lot of input for the designs, or let the imagineers come to them with ideas and they approve them, or is it different each time?

It is different each time. I can speak to some of the projects i was involved in and give you these examples. The opportunity for WDI is that you can get some of the money that they are paying to upgrade or build the attraction, so getting the sponsor fired up about what you want to do is important. They don't dictate the ideas or come to creative meetings. You research and study them and then come back with ideas. Fedex was going to sponsor both Space Mountains and we had to integrate their identity into them as part of the deal. We pitched adding on-board audio to the ride at Disneyland (first ever and well received) and was given monies to do that from them. We then had to show them how we were going to redo the old RCA display in WDW to tell a story of how packages would be beamed or teleported to other planets in the future. The thing here is that their presence was dictated by overt post RCA show in that it was already there and they see their message as being overlaid.

As for "Mission:Space", or other new attractions, you take your show around to present to potential sponsors that make a good creative fit, like Boeing or Rockwell. There is a department called "participant affairs" that finds the sponsors, manages the relationship (gets the sponsors to renew their deal) and negotiates the deals. You work through them. The ride is sometimes the minor part of the deal as the brands usually gets benefits that are more valuable to them, like movie promotion tie-ins, selling their stuff in the parks, etc. The ride sometimes is the thing they "have" to do to get the more valuable pieces of the relationship. Kodak, McDonalds, and Coke are examples of companies that benefited from selling in the parks. They usually want to be associated with more relevant attractions too. Coke used to complain about "Coke Corner" being too old fashioned, and preferred being in Tomorrowland and seen as more "cool". Sponsorships have gotten harder and harder to get and it has become an issue for the company. The economy has taken the Disney relationship "off the corporate balance sheet" if they don't directly see a return. Some have walked away after years. In the past, to some retiring CEO's, having an "attraction" was a "legacy" decision for them as it was for Metlife and their pavilion. More recently the call or demand for what is called "activation", meaning investing in show enhancements that directly moved product has been a priority. So those "Cool Zones" mister stations were paid for by them. Or more signage on walls, etc. The heavier messaging for GM in the show itself (Test Track IS a car factory) and others shows that the sponsor in some cases pays for what they get out of it. GE in the past was given enormous presence in the COP.

Your job becomes finding ways to mine money from the sponsor that enhances the show because you're not going to get it from the park. You want to balance out and blend them in to improve the show but is a series of tradeoffs. As a kid, I liked sponsors if they were woven in properly and made logical sense. Del Monte sponsoring America sings was dumb but having a real Bank of America, Upjohn Pharmacy, or Kodak Camera shop on Main Street made the whole town it more legit to the 1890's. Starbucks won't. Look at how "Dole whip" at the Tiki Room is a must have ritual! Coke and Baseball go together too and on Main Street their Americana improved the show. So it can be a benefit. I got to browse the archives of both Coke and Kodak for DLP and used their period ads and images to the show's benefit.

You try and make their presence as fun as possible and as a good fit if you can. Sometimes it's a stretch and you really just have to make it work as best you can. You try and get extra money for things unrelated to the hard messaging that will make the guest like the show better because of the sponsor. They understand that and will pay for it to a degree.

The R&D learning that went into putting onboard audio on SM in DL informed all of the other later systems (like never add speakers to old trains!), a great million dollar investment and the guest exit reviews were over 97 percent "excellent". Now we have it all over the parks. You also have to negotiate the sizes and quantity of their logo signage too. Always a tradeoff. A dangerous game indeed. I think over time it can erode the purity of the park if you let things get out of hand.
 

Eddie Sotto

Premium Member
DCA Entrance.

Today there is an article on the massive tile murals being struck to make way for the new entrance to DCA. They are being replaced with a more traditional entry solution, which is a "Main Street" type affair set in a more California 20's theme. Should be really nice and set the right tone.

http://www.yesterland.com/dcamural.html

I just hope that we don't forget (or worse demonize) that it's good to try big abstract ideas and take reasonable risks. It's ok to fail if you learn and continue toward a better idea. You can debate the design or quality of the DCA entry, but it was new and managed expectation outright that DCA was a different park from DL (it's undoing?). Stepping through a "picture postcard" is a pretty big idea, deserving perhaps a bigger execution. It was a budget driven solution. Having said that, guests were always posing in the letters and seemed to enjoy that. The tone of the park is changing to a richer experience, so the entry should probably set that expectation. The thing is, we don't always succeed (it's part of the process) but we should not run from big ideas, or repeat the past because we can. We can however, respect/fear how "big" an idea is by executing them in a way that can deliver the "wow". If we should beg off, is not from fear of an idea, it's because we feel we'll under deliver for the budget. You "can't know" the DCA Entrance in advance, the tile murals are a big risk, they will either work and be bold and "wow" or soft and dull. Tile color is tough and I've done good and bad tile. Movies are the same way, it does not come together till the end and any number of things can throw it off. I'll miss the DCA entry not because it was great, but because someone dared to try and make it great.

Thomas Edison referring to the light bulb said "I have not failed 10,000 times. I have successfully found 10,000 ways that will not work."
 

ChrisFL

Premium Member
It's headlines like this that make a real "Progress City" a more difficult argument.

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20101203/D9JSDIT80.html

Honestly I think this is more about the media than anything else. It's national news because of the Disney name. It's obvious that any living community will have its share of things like this happen eventually.

I agree that Progress City, had it been built would have been under the same (or more) scrutiny by the public.

The question is where does the philosophy of "improving life through innovation" become "trying to make a utopia" in the minds of the average person.

The media knows of Disney's squeaky clean image, then and now, anything that tarnishes that gets headline coverage.

I'm a huge fan of the ideas that Progress City presented, but I've always known that it isn't any kind of utopia...however it would go a long way to solving a lot of the problems that we created for ourselves, when you consider the basics, of transportation, organized layouts, proper maintenance in all areas, etc. Other than that, any place is only as good as its residents.
 

Eddie Sotto

Premium Member
you can not predict human behavior. look at the utopia in demolition man, they pushed to achieve this only by moving the unappealing elements into the sewers.

It's interesting that you can't design or legislate good behavior. Today's society tries to use laws to regulate what should come naturally in society. You can't defeat racism, sexual harassment or corruption merely by regulation or a more severe penalty. The desire to uphold those standards needs to be taught and valued by society itself. So you can design a "City of the future", but it will eventually be a reflection of the citizen's values unless it's a police state. If you are trying to elevate the "quality of life" overall and not just add gadgets, then you want to look at the foundation of what you are trying to do.

So what you really have, (since Disney is a upper tier $$$$ vacation destination), is a high end "model city" to demonstrate some of the benefits or features of future living in a way that you can "sample" them. A living beta test of components. Some can go to your town, some can't. But you're not saying that you've solved it all. Tomorrowland '67 did that without tackling the typical pitfalls of government.

Thoughts?
 

ChrisFL

Premium Member
It's interesting that you can't design or legislate good behavior. Today's society tries to use laws to regulate what should come naturally in society. You can't defeat racism, sexual harassment or corruption merely by regulation or a more severe penalty. The desire to uphold those standards needs to be taught and valued by society itself. So you can design a "City of the future", but it will eventually be a reflection of the citizen's values unless it's a police state. If you are trying to elevate the "quality of life" overall and not just add gadgets, then you want to look at the foundation of what you are trying to do.

That it isn't it? It's a major fundamental question that goes to the question of what system of society works best. Does it work on a large scale, or is it better in a smaller scale? Will a city plan like the one Walt envisioned work well in one place, but fail horribly in another? I do like the idea that he was going to have mostly cast members living in the city, making the qualification to live there the same as the qualification to be a CM, which I guess would have been pretty good standards (at least back then I think). I mean it's not TOO much different today as far as housing goes for the college program and international CM's, however there's probably some things that happen we don't hear about.

It's very difficult to get into those types of discussions without mentioning government and politics unfortunately.

We do see over history that in general, we are a much more civilized people overall than we were several hundred years ago, yet we look to some cultures who for whatever reason haven't learned that yet. The question I think is, if good city planning can influence a person's overall mental happiness and if so, how much is it a factor? Does this go back to a nature vs. nurture argument?

Take for example, things like road rage that we see today, clearly that wouldn't be a factor if Progress City was built they way it was expected, but would that person have another place to have his or her "rage" or does the reduction of stress from not being in traffic help things?

I do think if that design philosophy worked out, the city would be much more efficient and we'd have less overall things to "worry about" on a day in and day out business.

Anyway, I'm just typing out these thoughts as they're coming to me.

Edit: I think one literary work which could also be considered in this line of thinking is the "Lord of the Flies"...an extreme example of when civilized society is taken away.
 

flavious27

Well-Known Member
It's interesting that you can't design or legislate good behavior. Today's society tries to use laws to regulate what should come naturally in society. You can't defeat racism, sexual harassment or corruption merely by regulation or a more severe penalty. The desire to uphold those standards needs to be taught and valued by society itself. So you can design a "City of the future", but it will eventually be a reflection of the citizen's values unless it's a police state. If you are trying to elevate the "quality of life" overall and not just add gadgets, then you want to look at the foundation of what you are trying to do.

So what you really have, (since Disney is a upper tier $$$$ vacation destination), is a high end "model city" to demonstrate some of the benefits or features of future living in a way that you can "sample" them. A living beta test of components. Some can go to your town, some can't. But you're not saying that you've solved it all. Tomorrowland '67 did that without tackling the typical pitfalls of government.

Thoughts?

When different regions in the same state can't agree on a set of common behaviors, society is still generations away.
 
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