mickey2008.1
Well-Known Member
i think it stinks that there is somewhat of a webcam for DL, but nothing for wdw! BTW, Eddie, if you go swiss restaurant, you have to have horse, its excellent over there. Not crazy, just there way of life.
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Eddie Sotto's take on the current state of the parks
- Thread starter hpyhnt 1000
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Eddie Sotto
Premium Member
True. But how do you think it will work in Hollywood? You want us to go belly up the first week?
Eddie Sotto
Premium Member
Eddie Sotto
Premium Member
Awesome. Thanks for that. The grease vapors from HJ make it look mystical.
misterID
Well-Known Member
I knew attending grade school would end up screwing me some day. Blasted!
wilbur...
RSoxNo1
Well-Known Member
MiklCraw4d
Member
Now I didn't know you'd worked on the Swiss pavilion... that opens up a whole new line of questioning
I love the ability of the parks to imbue obsessions with places one has never been.
MiklCraw4d
Member
I completely agree to those wishing for a full-fledged Oz attraction. I leave in NC so I grew up hearing about "The Land of Oz" in the mountains, but it had closed by then. I was obsessed with those books when I was small and I've always wanted to see them treated properly. I hate that Walt decided not to tackle them...
Eddie Sotto
Premium Member
Now I didn't know you'd worked on the Swiss pavilion... that opens up a whole new line of questioning
I love the ability of the parks to imbue obsessions with places one has never been.
From what I understand, there had been several runs at getting a Swiss pavilion into play. I was asked by do something very quickly and responded with a Bird's eye view featuring the Matterhorn as a backdrop to a traditional Swiss Chalet Village. The Bobsleds laced through the landscape and extended out as far as the promenade and arched over the icy granite entrance. A fun project to sketch for sure. I think it died on arrival.
Eddie Sotto
Premium Member
Al Lutz in Rumorland
I read Al Lutz's post on the front page of on Miceage that the Alice Attraction at DL was closed by CAL/OSCHA for safety reasons relating to the outdoor vine the vehicles travel down. Apparently, according to another site, OSCHA is not to blame for the closure. When supposedly contacted, authorities at OSCHA say it was not them but Disney that has done this. A good reminder to self. We should be careful about believing everything we read over there.
Who to believe?
http://miceage.micechat.com/
http://mousepad.mouseplanet.com/blog.php?b=718
I read Al Lutz's post on the front page of on Miceage that the Alice Attraction at DL was closed by CAL/OSCHA for safety reasons relating to the outdoor vine the vehicles travel down. Apparently, according to another site, OSCHA is not to blame for the closure. When supposedly contacted, authorities at OSCHA say it was not them but Disney that has done this. A good reminder to self. We should be careful about believing everything we read over there.
Who to believe?
http://miceage.micechat.com/
http://mousepad.mouseplanet.com/blog.php?b=718
TP2000
Well-Known Member
That all happened overnight last night, and into Wednesday morning. And yet, Disneyland pretty much threw Cal/OSHA under the bus by Wednesday afternoon.
This statement was released by Disneyland around 2:00PM on Wednesday, after Al Lutz had "broken the story" with his Miceage blurb. This was taken from LaughingPlace.com shortly after the afternoon statement was released....
"Disneyland releases statement on Alice in Wonderland closure
We just received the following from a Disneyland spokesperson regarding the unscheduled closure of Alice in Wonderland:
During an unrelated visit to the park, a Cal OSHA representative observed a maintenance cast member on the track of the Alice in Wonderland attraction and made us aware of a potential safety issue. We agreed with the opportunity to enhance safety and voluntarily took down the attraction until modifications can be made.
An interim solution — likely scaffolding or another acceptable barrier — will be erected on the exterior “vine” area of the track, which will enhance cast safety. It should be in place within the next few weeks."
It now appears that the Al Lutz version is closer to the truth. Obviously the official Disneyland verison is going to be worded very carefully and very politely, but you can easily read between the lines and see Cal/OSHA laying in the street as the Disneyland bus approaches quickly. :lol:
At best, Cal/OSHA needs better internal communication before speaking publicly. At worst, Cal/OSHA was lying to poor David Koenig and trying to claim they had no knowledge of something they clearly had knowledge of. Cal/OSHA comes out the big loser here, with Al Lutz the apparent victor for calling attention to it.
Our tax dollars at work up in Sacramento.
.
Eddie Sotto
Premium Member
It is interesting (or depressing) how code issues are really beginning to alter what you can and cannot do even on old projects that pre exist. It gets harder and harder to create immersive alternate worlds when the "real" world dictates so much what you can and cannot design. If it was easy to make a railing that both looked good and met the criteria, it would have been there. Building a railing of vines or whatever will no doubt undermine the precarious nature of what was intended, making it a waste on all fronts. It is what it is as you have to respect the law. There may be a way to have folding rails of steel and cable that "lay down" on hinges and only when the ride goes down or is serviced do they erect themselves to be seen. They will have to be pretty creative in how they address this. My sense is that WDI will want to start over.
It just gets "curiouser and curiouser!"
It just gets "curiouser and curiouser!"
MarkTwain
Well-Known Member
I've been thinking about this too. In one of my architecture classes last year, we were discussing the effects of "liability" and how companies are re-designing buildings so that they have less liability issues, in the name of safety. One particularly pertinent example are the balconies on high-rise hotels and condos - many developers today no longer feature these once-desired features in new hotels, and some are even removing them from existing (or even historic) structures to prevent liability issues, should someone fall or jump off. I understand the need for safety, but when do these prevention measures start to negatively impact the experience of a design? It seems that this fear of a rare, once-every-30-years-or-so event involving someone jumping over a balcony is causing a detriment to the way people interact with a building on a daily basis. Can the need for safety go too far?
Eddie Sotto
Premium Member
Good point. Great topic.
But is it safety or liability? Where is the line between personal responsibility and reasonable safety based on the larger percentile of guests. It is virtually impossible to limit willful disregard for reasonable behavior. I recently walked across the Golden Gate bridge and there are suicide hotlines every so often for those who would jump. They didn't wall off the bridge with fences, they just dealt with the possibility of the small percentage of those who may want to do that against those who walk it and enjoy the view. They knew it was impossible to stop all suicide and that most recognize their own personal responsibility not to stand on the railings. It would take millions and ruin the look of the bridge to build a 2 mile barricade. So they dealt with the problem through prevention, not architecture. Crosswalks do not have automatic fences and gates either as we respect the consequences. You can argue they should, but the "real world" teaches us that we have to play our part in the overall context of what safety is. The environment does not assume liability for all of our willful actions. The "don't walk" signs assume you participate in a shared liability. Even though they trigger at the right times, we still have to watch for cars.
As an example, there has been an ongoing argument to level out all street curbs on Main Streets in the parks because you may trip on them. The argument is that people are less conscious of them as they are in a carefree state of mind and so they may trip on the curb and who wants to be liable. But should you be? Is this a slippery slope? The issue can also be that once you continue to assume responsibility for someone's every action you actually increase liability as what you are really saying is that these "worlds" being euphoric to a degree require more than the "real world" in terms of safety and you have to predict that. The fact is that curbs are a reality in almost 100% of all cities in the world and I'd say the percentage of those who trip on them is insignificant against the numbers of those who do not, same for theme parks. To lose a curb seems small, but when coupled to other compromises, some coming from other directions (over merchandising, modern ATM's, DVC booths, etc) contributes to the gradual loss of creative integrity of the land. At some point, the spell is broken and Main Street becomes a mall not a town. Of course, no one wishes injury on anyone either and you do all you can to make things as safe as possible. I want to be clear about that. If you have ever seen a kid get hurt at the park, it's heartbreaking and you never want to design something that contributes to an accident. Good design is so intuitive that it prevents them naturally.
However... Is there an issue of reasonable balance between prudent safety, personal responsibility, and avoidance of all liability? Good thing to discuss but not on a balcony!
HMF
Well-Known Member
The sad truth is personal responsibility does not seem to exist anymore. The Disneyland Mark VII Monorail got delayed a year because of safety concerns. Only having the windows open so far as to prevent people from jumping off despite the fact that the thing had no Air Conditioning and having that little air in a Southern California Summer would be death. I even heard that they are trying to re-design the Hot Dog to make it less easy to choke on.
Eddie Sotto
Premium Member
I used to explain to people at WDI that when I worked at Knott's they would run the full size Locomotive right through the crowds to cross Calico Square. No electric gates, just an operator standing by to see that no one trips etc. It moved very slow but deliberate. You respected it in any language and you got out of the way. Period. I never heard of any accidents from the train running down a guest when I was there. The shrill whistle and the clouds of belching steam conveyed the message. Move. It's coming.
I recently went to the "farm" and noticed that now there are gates and railings and so forth along the path of the Locomotive crossing the square. (I can't imagine Butch Cassidy waiting for an operator to open the gate for him to rob the train either.) Quite a crossing. So much for that argument. I don't think an accident drove that move, but the times we live in did. People will sue over anything today and so I don't blame lawyers for trying to protect the parks from those who will exploit opportunities, this is a reality too.
You're right, times have changed.
HMF
Well-Known Member
I like it as much as you do Eddie.
Eddie Sotto
Premium Member
I like it as much as you do Eddie.
I also heard an something argument along these lines in the automotive industry. They have created more and more street legal cars that have incredible horsepower, like 300HP or more (i.e. Shelby Mustang is 540). No one needs that. Then there are airbags, anti lock 4 wheel disc brakes, and computerized 4 wheel traction control and anti sway systems. More and more they are adding intelligent safety that may give a false sense of security or invincibility to the driver while piling on torque and over 300 HP to factory Mustangs, Camaros, Subarus, and BMW's. Interesting huh...
TP2000
Well-Known Member
Not only that, but the new 2011 V-6 entry level Mustang has over 300 Horsepower while still getting 31 MPG on the freeway! The V-6 Mustang is the typical "Secretaries Car", and yet they are these fire breathing economy machines now. The V-8 Mustang is well over 400 Horsepower. They are amazingly powerful yet efficient machines, and yet the average driver is in way over their head when they try and harness 300 Horsepower when going to the grocery store. Much less a college guy dealing with over 400 Horsepower while showing off for their date or their buddies.
As for Alice In Wonderland being shut down, I have to wonder what they'll come up with quickly. From the wording in the statements from Disneyland, it sounds like there will be some temporary fix slapped on in a few weeks, while a more permanent change to the entire vine structure is designed and approved that will require a longer downtime and full rebuild.
It's such a unique and clever thing to see those caterpillar cars pop out of the side of the building and then snake down that vine. I hope they don't lose that kinetic element by hiding it behind bueracrat-approved railings and protection. I can't think of any other indoor/outdoor dark ride besides Alice, except for maybe the outdoor loading area at Disneyland's Pooh ride. But still, Alice's outdoor section of vine track is unprecedented in Disney theme park dark rides, isn't it?
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