Eddie Sotto's take on the current state of the parks

[juan]

As for Alice In Wonderland being shut down, I have to wonder what they'll come up with quickly. From the wording in the statements from Disneyland, it sounds like there will be some temporary fix slapped on in a few weeks, while a more permanent change to the entire vine structure is designed and approved that will require a longer downtime and full rebuild.

It's such a unique and clever thing to see those caterpillar cars pop out of the side of the building and then snake down that vine. I hope they don't lose that kinetic element by hiding it behind bueracrat-approved railings and protection. I can't think of any other indoor/outdoor dark ride besides Alice, except for maybe the outdoor loading area at Disneyland's Pooh ride. But still, Alice's outdoor section of vine track is unprecedented in Disney theme park dark rides, isn't it?

Having dealt with a lot of Cal-OSHA code recently, it seems that the issue is a fall from over 4ft. According to some codes, any person on a structure that could potentially fall 4 or more feet needs fall protection. This could either be a tie off point with a harness and lanyard or handrails. Keep in mind though that if hand rails are added (either permanently or scaffold) they would need midrails and toe boards.

 

[_Scar]

Themeing vs safety?


Safety imo.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Themeing vs safety?


Safety imo.

True. I don't think anyone disagrees with that. In the previous posts we've been discussing the balance between reasonable degree of safety, personal responsibility and product liability. I think one way to see it is that you never want the mechanics or the environment to inflict harm on someone, although some circumvent or are unreasonably careless in that environment. You cannot prevent everything. Theme parks have lots of children who are not mature so you have to be especially careful with latches and doors that pinch and things like that. All part of a designer's day.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Having dealt with a lot of Cal-OSHA code recently, it seems that the issue is a fall from over 4ft. According to some codes, any person on a structure that could potentially fall 4 or more feet needs fall protection. This could either be a tie off point with a harness and lanyard or handrails. Keep in mind though that if hand rails are added (either permanently or scaffold) they would need midrails and toe boards.

It seems that the rail may have to address evacuating a guest as well as service issues. The hard part is that the design of the railings are legislated for you. There is not much room to imagine on this. You have to have it dense enough so a 4" sphere cannot pass through and it's at a constant height. So. I look forward to where they end up on this.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

The Potter effect?

Interesting rumor (and that's all it is right now) being floated on Jim Hill's Site about WDW having second thoughts about the Fantasyland Forest project and looking at an offering with broader (boy) appeal. A good read with interesting arguments. Especially about the project being announced supposedly without board of directors financial approval.

http://jimhillmedia.com/Editor_In_C...ans-for-fantasyland-forest-being-revised.aspx

 

[jt04]

Interesting rumor (and that's all it is right now) being floated on Jim Hill's Site about WDW having second thoughts about the Fantasyland Forest project and looking at an offering with broader (boy) appeal. A good read with interesting arguments. Especially about the project being announced supposedly without board of directors financial approval.

http://jimhillmedia.com/Editor_In_C...ans-for-fantasyland-forest-being-revised.aspx

The board approves every project huh? Sounds like a JHM myth to me. Unfortunately for Jim, the m&g's he said are not happening are already having their foundations poured. Beware of the JH kool-aid. He wrote a little over a year ago that the Russian pavilion was green lighted. That is just one of his "leaks" that appear to be more wishful thinking than journalism. He has been discredited many times on this very forum by well sourced posters. He is not media, he is a mere blogger. A good blogger, but just that.

Also, I believe PH was always "phase 2" because they need to keep toontown open as long as possible. It was not "delayed" as it was the plan all along.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

The board approves every project huh? Sounds like a JHM myth to me. Unfortunately for Jim, the m&g's he said are not happening are already having their foundations poured. Beware of the JH kool-aid.

You are right, it is a rumor and perhaps a very weak one, but we've had a change of management and now Mr. Staggs has to assume responsibility of that whole area in light of Harry Potter. It would not shock me if he tried to steer the expansion into a more balanced direction. I posted the article not because I thought JHM was right all of the time, but because the question of the right attraction mix was brought up and we discuss stuff like that here. We can play with the scenarios and consider the outcomes if you want.

As I recall, the Board approve/reviews big ticket projects over a certain figure or perhaps a portfolio of work from a division head.

 

[jt04]

You are right, it is a rumor and perhaps a very weak one, but we've had a change of management and now Mr. Staggs has to assume responsibility of that whole area in light of Harry Potter. It would not shock me if he tried to steer the expansion into a more balanced direction. I posted the article not because I thought JHM was right all of the time, but because the question of the right attraction mix was brought up and we discuss stuff like that here. We can play with the scenarios and consider the outcomes if you want.

As I recall, the Board approve/reviews big ticket projects over a certain figure or perhaps a portfolio of work from a division head.

I made this point in another thread, but if you had been in a meeting discussing Frontierland's development in Paris and someone had suggested that it needed to be more girly what would the reaction have been? I mean, unless we are talking about can-can dancers at the Horseshoe, Frontierland and girly just doesn't seem to mesh. :lol:

The new Fantasyland at WDW will still have most of its original content so for the life of me I don't see the supposed imbalance. I think it is largely an internet fanboy temper tantrum. I just can't imagine TS is losing much sleep over the m&g's or PH. If anything I would think he would be concerned how Dumbo fits the FLE theme. Perhaps as a traveling show in the manner of FotLK?:shrug:

 

[SeaCastle]

The new Fantasyland at WDW will still have most of its original content so for the life of me I don't see the supposed imbalance. I think it is largely an internet fanboy temper tantrum. I just can't imagine TS is losing much sleep over the m&g's or PH. If anything I would think he would be concerned how Dumbo fits the FLE theme. Perhaps as a traveling show in the manner of FotLK?:shrug:

The 'story' of Dumbo's Circus is that it was travelling around, and is now setting up shop outside of the new Fantasyland Forest. Even if this was a thematic clash, Tom Staggs cares about the numbers, and spending hundreds of millions of dollars on Cinderella's fashion show and Aurora's Sweet Sixteen (which only appeals to a small demographic) is less financial (and operational sense) than spending that money on something that everyone can partake in (and something that offers a higher capacity as well).

Obviously, if they are only commiting to the Beauty and the Beast restaurant and the Mermaid attraction at this point (whilst re-considering everything else), this is much less of a "temper-tantrum" as it is a legitimate concern for beancounters and financially-wary executives. If it's so much of a problem that they have to re-consider the project, than this is much more than a few complaining fans.

 

[juan]

The 'story' of Dumbo's Circus is that it was travelling around, and is now setting up shop outside of the new Fantasyland Forest. Even if this was a thematic clash, Tom Staggs cares about the numbers, and spending hundreds of millions of dollars on Cinderella's fashion show and Aurora's Sweet Sixteen (which only appeals to a small demographic) is less financial (and operational sense) than spending that money on something that everyone can partake in (and something that offers a higher capacity as well).

Obviously, if they are only commiting to the Beauty and the Beast restaurant and the Mermaid attraction at this point (whilst re-considering everything else), this is much less of a "temper-tantrum" as it is a legitimate concern for beancounters and financially-wary executives. If it's so much of a problem that they have to re-consider the project, than this is much more than a few complaining fans.

well said :wave:

 

[jt04]

The 'story' of Dumbo's Circus is that it was travelling around, and is now setting up shop outside of the new Fantasyland Forest. Even if this was a thematic clash, Tom Staggs cares about the numbers, and spending hundreds of millions of dollars on Cinderella's fashion show and Aurora's Sweet Sixteen (which only appeals to a small demographic) is less financial (and operational sense) than spending that money on something that everyone can partake in (and something that offers a higher capacity as well).

Obviously, if they are only commiting to the Beauty and the Beast restaurant and the Mermaid attraction at this point (whilst re-considering everything else), this is much less of a "temper-tantrum" as it is a legitimate concern for beancounters and financially-wary executives. If it's so much of a problem that they have to re-consider the project, than this is much more than a few complaining fans.

It certainly appears that Cinderella and Aurora's new places are cleared and ready for foundation work. For the hundredth time, it was stated clearly that the m&g's are designed purposely to meet the needs of younger families that Disney has decided are being underserved at the MK. When compared to Disneyland there is no argument that the MK is not currently meeting that standard. And before you throw the matterhorn at me as an example of "balance", you have to take Everest into account. Again, WDW has a special advantage in that not every land has to have a thrill ride and a childrens ride. It is a luxury that they can and should exploit IMO, to create even more immersive environments.But the bottom line is the MK needs more attractions for young children if they want to achieve the "balance" everyone claims they want.

 

[SeaCastle]

It certainly appears that Cinderella and Aurora's new places are cleared and ready for foundation work. For the hundredth time, it was stated clearly that the m&g's are designed purposely to meet the needs of younger families that Disney has decided are being underserved at the MK. When compared to Disneyland there is no argument that the MK is not currently meeting that standard. And before you throw the matterhorn at me as an example of "balance", you have to take Everest into account. Again, WDW has a special advantage in that not every land has to have a thrill ride and a childrens ride. It is a luxury that they can and should exploit IMO, to create even more immersive environments.But the bottom line is the MK needs more attractions for young children if they want to achieve the "balance" everyone claims they want.

I never said the kids and families are under-represented. I just believe it's a waste to spend so much capital on something only appealing to a small demographic. The need could be met in a simpler, less-expensive way, as proposed in the original Fantasyland expansion concept.

I'm not one to pick and choose what our forum insiders here say when I don't agree with management decisions, but I tend to believe what they say, especially since the "claims" about the imbalance seem to be legitimate logistical concerns.

 

[HMF]

You are right, it is a rumor and perhaps a very weak one, but we've had a change of management and now Mr. Staggs has to assume responsibility of that whole area in light of Harry Potter. It would not shock me if he tried to steer the expansion into a more balanced direction. I posted the article not because I thought JHM was right all of the time, but because the question of the right attraction mix was brought up and we discuss stuff like that here. We can play with the scenarios and consider the outcomes if you want.

As I recall, the Board approve/reviews big ticket projects over a certain figure or perhaps a portfolio of work from a division head.

I have to say I am impressed with Mr. Staggs so far. I was originally a bit nervous having a former CFO heading the department. as Walt said "Bankers have no imagination. None whatsoever." However reading Tom's opinions "All our parks are different but have similar DNA" is a breath of fresh air after Jay Rasulo's One Disney/Disney Parks, Where dreams come true campaign.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

I made this point in another thread, but if you had been in a meeting discussing Frontierland's development in Paris and someone had suggested that it needed to be more girly what would the reaction have been? I mean, unless we are talking about can-can dancers at the Horseshoe, Frontierland and girly just doesn't seem to mesh. :lol:

The new Fantasyland at WDW will still have most of its original content so for the life of me I don't see the supposed imbalance. I think it is largely an internet fanboy temper tantrum. I just can't imagine TS is losing much sleep over the m&g's or PH. If anything I would think he would be concerned how Dumbo fits the FLE theme. Perhaps as a traveling show in the manner of FotLK?:shrug:

It will be interesting to see what shakes out if anything.

In that National Geographic from the early sixties I was referencing a few posts back, they mention how few children are in the park during the week and how much the park appeals to adults. The PR man from DL replies "People are asking us when we're going to build a Disneyland for kids". Love that.

 

[mickey2008.1]

doesnt mk already meat young kids needs? all but 3 (maybe 5)attractions are for/include the little ones. so why add a whole land just aimed at on a small group? i get the family aspect and its imersion, but where is the whole immersion for everyone? LM is it. MGs are not. I see a new land that will see everyone going to one attraction, and then moving. One main attraction with nothing to support it. There should be some kind of theatrical show at least to keep crowds involved and not just waiting for one attraction. What will keep people there when waiting or going to dinner at the new restaurant? MGs? I am a family with four kids, and only one will want MGs, what will the others do? Dumbo, already have it, and its for little ones again. FLE needs something to keep the family stay in the new land.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

doesnt mk already meat young kids needs? all but 3 (maybe 5)attractions are for/include the little ones. so why add a whole land just aimed at on a small group? i get the family aspect and its imersion, but where is the whole immersion for everyone? LM is it. MGs are not. I see a new land that will see everyone going to one attraction, and then moving. One main attraction with nothing to support it. There should be some kind of theatrical show at least to keep crowds involved and not just waiting for one attraction. What will keep people there when waiting or going to dinner at the new restaurant? MGs? I am a family with four kids, and only one will want MGs, what will the others do? Dumbo, already have it, and its for little ones again. FLE needs something to keep the family stay in the new land.

If the JHM report has any shred of truth to it, I'm sure many of these questions are being considered at some level internally. I do know that they don't just jump into building things without some supporting data to confirm their direction. They may have leaned too far into the Princess phenom and now maybe are reconsidering their options. Or not.

 

[mickey2008.1]

If the JHM report has any shred of truth to it, I'm sure many of these questions are being considered at some level internally. I do know that they don't just jump into building things without some supporting data to confirm their direction. They may have leaned too far into the Princess phenom and now maybe are reconsidering their options. Or not.

if you ever come to Cleveland, dinner is on me. Some of my friends will be glad to accommodate us, as will I

 

[mickey2008.1]

as a foodie, what is your favorite wdw restaurant?

 

[Mickey_777]

Hi Eddie,

I've been reading a lot about how DL Paris isn't "up to standard" and I'm a bit worried since I'd like to visit soon. When was the last time you were at the park you worked so much on? Is it really just a cultural thing where the CM's are rude because they're french? Did you ever encounter overflowing trash bins and garbage on the floor etc...? Who's running the show over there nowdays anyway? Thanks much Eddie.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

as a foodie, what is your favorite wdw restaurant?

Thanks for the dinner invite. I've been to Cleveland several times and Ohio has great chili! As for WDW cuisine, the California Grill at the Contemporary is pretty consistent and so is the fine dining restaurant at the Animal Kingdom Lodge. I've had good experiences at the Flying fish as well.