disneysroyal411
New Member
Eddie do you know if they are working on a new Soarin film? Sorry I don't know the questions you can and can't answer either. Also, anything about Test Track if you can answer that also.
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Eddie Sotto's take on the current state of the parks
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Rufus T Firefly
Well-Known Member
Good work, Cole. You've compiled a very extensive list. Maybe I missed it, but I see no mention of the Main St. vehicles ( Horse drawn trolley, Omnibus, fire truck, etc) I don't recall a Main St. shooting gallery, but at one time there was an Adventureland Shooting Gallery. But, I'm nitpicking here. With all the attractions that have come and gone, some are bound to fall through the cracks. On the whole, you've done an impressive job here.
Eddie Sotto
Premium Member
I'm no longer at Imagineering and quit about a decade ago. I do have friends there but avoid talking shop. So other than what we both read I really don't know what is coming till it's here. Kind of like the employees at the Apple Stores. Sorry to disappoint.
Eddie Sotto
Premium Member
No idea. Sorry.
Eddie Sotto
Premium Member
Glad you see some value in it Eddie! The weird things Disney fans spend their time on..!
Someone suggested a chart would be a good way to show the trends, so I made two charts (thanks to the power of Excel), one for sourcing and one for activity;
There's a big jump in sourced and active attractions in the early 1990s. That's due to the addition of Mickey's Toontown, where almost every attraction is both sourced and active (I think the only exception being the Jolly Trolley). Still, it shows the basing attractions on films is predominantly a 90s phenomenon - it was only two years ago that the number of sourced attractions overtook original ones.
Another chart for the collection could be one that tells us how many attractions have an element in their storyline where "something goes wrong". (just kidding) The difficult thing for me to separate is that in a way the whole park as a concept is a bit "sourced" as it came from a TV show and from the company's various movie and TV genres. Adventureland is "true life" Adventures, Frontierland was too (Nature's Wonderland) and also inspired by Davy Crockett to an extent. Something to mull I guess.
MouseketeerCole
Member
Thanks - can't believe I missed the Main Street Vehicles. There was a Main Street Shooting Gallery, but I missed the Adventureland one - (that's funny isn't it; Adventureland, Frontierland and Main Street all had shooting galleries, Tomorrowland has Buzz ... I think it's time Fantasyland should get one! =P). I also accidently put in Keller's Jungle Killers, not realising it was simply an act in the Mickey Mouse Club Circus, and I need to seperate IASW into the pre- and post-character refurbs. I was close though!
I had similar thoughts - it seems of all the original lands, only Main Street could be considered 'original' (in Disney canon at least). Fantasyland is clearly the most sourced (some argue its the only land Walt intended Disney films to be represented in originally, but with Davy Crockett's heavy apearance in Frontierland, 20,000 Leagues in Tomorrowland and so on, I don't really go along with that). I've actually got quite interested recently in where Walt got all the ideas for the elements that make up Disneyland, so Greenfield Village, Tivoli Gardens and so on - what Walt included and, just as interestingly, what Walt didn't include.
What *are* the sources for Adventureland, Frontierland and Tomorrowland? Is it Nature, History and Science? Or adventure films, westerns and sci-fi? Obviously its a balance, even a blending.
I wrote an article a month or two ago arguing that Frontierland wasn't really intended as a 'Western' land, but rather a land based on American history and geography, backed up by Walt's comments at the opening of New Orleans Square that it represented the Lousiana expansion, and the El Zocalo Park area (which Walt mentions he wants to expand in the future - unfortunately this never happened due to his passing) representing the California/Mexico expansion. Especially if you consider New Orleans Square as a subland of Frontierland (backed by the advertisement mentioning Frontierland along the New Orleans Square waterfront - wait a minute, didn't you oversee the Fantasmic make-over for the riverfront, Eddie? Any chance you could comment on this?) as well as Bear Country being a subland representing the American North-west, the Nature's Wonderland area as representative of nature in the south west, and Liberty Square in WDW being another Frontierland subland pushing the history back even further, you kind of come to a Frontierland metatheme which is lot more ambitious than just cowboys.
disneysroyal411
New Member
Okay this is very helpful to me because I didn't if you were there or what you did there and so I didn't know what kind of questions I could as so thank you.
HMF
Well-Known Member
Here's all the ones with someone or something goes missing.
http://imagineerebirth.blogspot.com/2007/04/one-of-our-dinosaurs-is-missing.html
TTA Announcer
New Member
It's cool. Thanks for responding.
Eddie Sotto
Premium Member
When you read the dedication of the park you find that "the hard facts that created America" is part of that. I agree that Frontierland is just that, the country as it was being tamed and in it's earlier incarnations with Davy Crockett leading the way. The True-Life "Beaver Valley", "Vanishing Prairie" "Living Desert" and "Bear Country" films likely inspired the Nature's Wonderland rides, but you basically get the geography lesson of America in a state of becoming. For example, Zocalo Park was the home to Zorro as he made appearances there, so that was a nod to early California, while the Golden Horseshoe was more of St Louis and the Aunt Jemima, Don Defore BBQ place was the first gesture toward New Orleans. The Plantation House and Magnolia Gardens were the south as well.
When we did the new promenade that was to accommodate the crowds of Fantasmic!, the idea was to create a waterfront that was inspired by "Factor's walk" in Savannah GA. There was to be layer upon layer of ballast from English ships used as the cobblestone walk. There was as you say the theme of using Jean Lafitte and his catacombs as a part of all of that, but that did not sell, so we never got to conceptually connect TS Island, POTC and the Mansion graveyard in that way. Personally, I like history and it's fun to use it to add creative depth as it's real.
Eddie Sotto
Premium Member
TP2000
Well-Known Member
Fascinating! I always enjoy reading the little plaques and engravings and such on the stonework walls in the Fantasmic! promenade.
Interestingly, when they did the Pirate's Lair overlay to Tom Sawyer Island in '07, they rethemed the old "Cider Mill" as "Lafitte's Tavern", with lots of props and the sounds of a rowdy pirate crew partying inside and their weaponry all stowed at the door. It's a clever detail really.
So a part of that original plan of yours was slotted in 15 years later.
Eddie Sotto
Premium Member
Dead ideas DO tell tales!!!
I was asked once, why do this at all? At the time, the park was looking for extreme ways to cuts operating costs and increase revenue. Closing rides like the Subs (already removed Skyway) was the kind of things being discussed. The rafts were also mentioned as the Island has a low capacity per hour compared to its expense to operate. My intent was to save the island, by trading the rafts for a two way tunnel (catacomb) that connects the island and eases the capacity bottle neck getting on and off and then add lots of new things to do. The fort area becomes a hidden capsized ship hideout, Cannon shooting gallery and Tavern that at some level increases revenue and fun. Visually you don't see the pirate theming from the outside, it's all stealth. It's a hideout. The playground elements would all stay. Love it or hate it, I thought it was a good compromise considering whole attractions were on the block.
When creating something new, you sometimes look at your surroundings for an organic or synergistic idea. At the time "Lafitte's landing" was the POTC dock, there was his supposed Anchor in the land, and Andrew Jackson was in a scene with Davy Crockett on the Island in the Fort. Lafitte and Jackson knew each other in history. There was a connection between Lafitte and TSI too. History had him trading his stolen goods on an Island across from the City of New Orleans, Barrataria (mentioned on the anchor). Sounded like I could "source" a Pirate themed overlay to TS Island idea and do it from the pages of history. Adding an exterior crypt and graveyard to the HM, Lafitte's burgled Crypt would lead us down a secret stair through dripping catacombs laded with skulls of fallen crews till we finally reach his Island hideout and emerge through a buried hull on the island side of the river. There was lots of new stuff to do. It did not fly. The arch in the wall was never really the entrance, but a "post it" note reminder of that lost idea. That's the short story. I explained all of the elements of the island someplace, not sure where.
If more of that Lafitte thing interests you, check out the posts on Micechat here where speculation runs wild at Post 37. And HMF asks and I answer at Post 1303 in this thread.
http://micechat.com/forums/disneyla...nted-mansion-effect-episode-4-new-hope-3.html
The underground catacomb art is here.
http://imagineeringdisney.blogspot.com/2009_05_01_archive.html
Fascinating! I always enjoy reading the little plaques and engravings and such on the stonework walls in the Fantasmic! promenade.
So a part of that original plan of yours was slotted in 15 years later.
I was asked once, why do this at all? At the time, the park was looking for extreme ways to cuts operating costs and increase revenue. Closing rides like the Subs (already removed Skyway) was the kind of things being discussed. The rafts were also mentioned as the Island has a low capacity per hour compared to its expense to operate. My intent was to save the island, by trading the rafts for a two way tunnel (catacomb) that connects the island and eases the capacity bottle neck getting on and off and then add lots of new things to do. The fort area becomes a hidden capsized ship hideout, Cannon shooting gallery and Tavern that at some level increases revenue and fun. Visually you don't see the pirate theming from the outside, it's all stealth. It's a hideout. The playground elements would all stay. Love it or hate it, I thought it was a good compromise considering whole attractions were on the block.
When creating something new, you sometimes look at your surroundings for an organic or synergistic idea. At the time "Lafitte's landing" was the POTC dock, there was his supposed Anchor in the land, and Andrew Jackson was in a scene with Davy Crockett on the Island in the Fort. Lafitte and Jackson knew each other in history. There was a connection between Lafitte and TSI too. History had him trading his stolen goods on an Island across from the City of New Orleans, Barrataria (mentioned on the anchor). Sounded like I could "source" a Pirate themed overlay to TS Island idea and do it from the pages of history. Adding an exterior crypt and graveyard to the HM, Lafitte's burgled Crypt would lead us down a secret stair through dripping catacombs laded with skulls of fallen crews till we finally reach his Island hideout and emerge through a buried hull on the island side of the river. There was lots of new stuff to do. It did not fly. The arch in the wall was never really the entrance, but a "post it" note reminder of that lost idea. That's the short story. I explained all of the elements of the island someplace, not sure where.
If more of that Lafitte thing interests you, check out the posts on Micechat here where speculation runs wild at Post 37. And HMF asks and I answer at Post 1303 in this thread.
http://micechat.com/forums/disneyla...nted-mansion-effect-episode-4-new-hope-3.html
The underground catacomb art is here.
http://imagineeringdisney.blogspot.com/2009_05_01_archive.html
HMF
Well-Known Member
Too bad they let the fans write the articles recently. All it is is nitpicking now.
HMF
Well-Known Member
The Laffites Tavern sign is gone now. It seems they are scaling back the Pirate angle a little bit. As for my opinions on Pirate's Lair I have nothing wrong with the concept of Pirate's Lair and I like Dead Mans Grotto but there are several things I would have done differently.Fascinating! I always enjoy reading the little plaques and engravings and such on the stonework walls in the Fantasmic! promenade.
Interestingly, when they did the Pirate's Lair overlay to Tom Sawyer Island in '07, they rethemed the old "Cider Mill" as "Lafitte's Tavern", with lots of props and the sounds of a rowdy pirate crew partying inside and their weaponry all stowed at the door. It's a clever detail really.
So a part of that original plan of yours was slotted in 15 years later.
1. The sign
Where do I begin? Temporary looking. Obviously just thrown over Tom Sawyer Island. The idea is it has been taken over by pirates but I see that as a creative cop-out. What I would have done is leave the Tom Sawyer Island sign alone and have a banner above it saying Pirate's Lair.
2.I would not have so many references to the POTC movie Franchise. There are just too many POTC movie references for an island themed to Tom Sawyer playing pirate. Notes from Jack Sparrow' Will Turner Blacksmith shop etc. What should have happened is they should focus on the theme of Tom and Huck playing Pirate and not so much on Pirates of the Caribbean as the theme of the area is the Rivers of America not the Caribbean.
TP2000
Well-Known Member
Funny thing is that sign comes and goes, and it mirrors the Fantasmic! schedule. I couldn't figure it out until one summer evening I saw the Fantasmic! techs reach up and lower the sign as they prepped the island stage for Fantasmic!. It appears to be a task assigned to Fantasmic! technicians.
There was no sign of scaling back anything Pirate's Lair related when I went over to Tom Sawyer Island last weekend. It had been closed for four months for the big river rehab, and they actually freshened all the Pirate's Lair stuff up. It's all still there, working great. The pirate party audio from inside Lafitte's Tavern was playing too.
I think some folks who don't visit Disneyland regularly think the Pirate's Lair theme was "scaled back" only because it's not something Disneyland is focusing on in their marketing like they did when it opened in '07.
The one thing that did go away was the Jack Sparrow stunt show after its six month run in '07. That didn't return. But the pirate band still plays on weekends, and they have some pirate atmosphere talent around as well.
As for the Pirate's Lair sailcloth sign over the Tom Sawyer Island marquee, that was done on purpose.
While you may feel it looks "temporary", I think the look the Imagineers were going for was that the pirates had taken over the island. That entire marquee structure was added in '07. During the previous 50 years there wasn't any type of marquee or signage at all, except for a small thing propped on top of the turnstile from 1956 to 1983 that told you to remove your D Coupon. They did have a little flip sign that said when the last raft left for the day, but there was no marquee or big sign to announce Tom Sawyer Island at the Disneyland raft dock. All of it was added in the spring of 2007.
I can't help but think that the cool pirate additions Eddie Sotto mentioned being proposed for the Island back in the 1990's sound even more lavish than the Pirate's Lair stuff. The 1990's were a notorious penny pinching era under Paul Pressler, but did they really think so shortsighted as to eliminate the rafts just to save on labor and maintenance costs? It's amazing Disneyland survived that era without more indignities than it already had, and mostly recovered from.
HMF
Well-Known Member
The Epcot wand looked permanent compared to this. I still think they should have put a banner above instead of covering up the sign it just looks bad.As for the Pirate's Lair sailcloth sign over the Tom Sawyer Island marquee, that was done on purpose.
While you may feel it looks "temporary", I think the look the Imagineers were going for was that the pirates had taken over the island. That entire marquee structure was added in '07. During the previous 50 years there wasn't any type of marquee or signage at all, except for a small thing propped on top of the turnstile from 1956 to 1983 that told you to remove your D Coupon. They did have a little flip sign that said when the last raft left for the day, but there was no marquee or big sign to announce Tom Sawyer Island at the Disneyland raft dock. All of it was added in the spring of 2007.
MouseketeerCole
Member
I actually thing I'd enjoy the catacomb tunnel more than the rafts, which I don't particularly get much enjoyment out of. Waiting for them is a pain, even more so on the way back; they're cramped and hot in the sun with no shade and that sputtering motor; the trip's too short to be anything meaningful.
BUT the dynamism they add to the river is brilliant. Just comparing Disneyland's river to WDWs shows how much busy watercraft adds to the area.
Eddie Sotto
Premium Member
What we had proposed was not cheap. I like the cave effects they did very much and we had similar ideas, but there was this big hideout inside a capsized treasure ship. That would have been expensive. The catacombs done as an ossuary or sorts would have been pretty fun to do as well, with sound effects, etc. I think the imagineers intended to make the Pirate theme a "takeover", so there would not be a big permanent looking marquee. I like the sailcloth approach on that graphic. Seems natural and in keeping, even though it's temporary or simple. So many times the formulaic solution is a rectangular sign with moldings and filagree surrounding the text, then an oval is placed above with a small illustration in it. Refreshing to me to see something different. It's fine by me!
TP2000
Well-Known Member
Yup. It looks good in pictures, and looks even better in real life as you walk towards it and around it and underneath it and see the rest of the "Tom Sawyer Island" text clearly as you pass beneath the sail. 2 Dimensional pictures on the Internet don't do it justice, and can't capture the the nuance and details of it all.
I remember cracking up laughing at message board posts when Pirate's Lair opened in '07, and some folks said "Oh, that sail is such a cheap way to get the name up on the marquee. It's such a shame they ruined the big Rafts marquee like that, it looked much better before!". And I would laugh at the computer screen and think/type "Uh, gang, it was never there before. Nothing was there before. This is all new." :lol:
Speaking of signage Eddie, I was thinking about the Lafitte's Tavern sign that HMF mentioned as "being gone", when it's really just become hit or miss if the Fantasmic! techs flip it back up at the end of the night to be ready in the morning. (And then of course people think there's some big master-plan to downplay the Pirate's Lair stuff, which from the looks of the last lavish rehab to it all is exactly the opposite of what Disneyland is doing.) I've watched those Fantasmic! entertainment department techs flip the sign down at 6:00PM, and then flip it back up at Midnight, or not flip it back up.
Do you, or Imagineers in general, often design in stuff that depends on the Park Operations groups to ensure is set correctly for the day? And if so, isn't there a contractural agreement of some sort that they will actually maintain it? Or do you really just design this stuff, and then hope to God that the Operations groups in the parks will actually follow through and keep it going as it was designed year after year?
I can't imagine that a top dog Imagineer like Kathy Mangum, who I believe was involved in the Pirate's Lair project, would be happy to learn that some hourly CM's who are trying to get home quickly are forgetting to prop up that Lafitte's Tavern sign consistently.
I guess I'm trying to ask... Have you ever returned to a park project you designed a year or two later and the Operations group has stopped performing a required task designed in to the project? Is there any sort of recourse for that sort of thing, or is Imagineering powerless to prevent Operations from cutting corners or getting lazy with the details?
Sorry for the long-winded question.
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