Eddie Sotto's take on the current state of the parks

[Eddie Sotto]

I don't really buy their "They are naming the individual areas of the river thus we are being spoon fed a story" argument. It's just an extra layer of theming and in my opinion enhancing the experience. The premise is basically the same. Besides the fact that Jungle Cruise used key words like "Rivers of Africa" etc.

Yes. As I recall, the Rivers of America representing different American Rivers dates back to Walt's inception of the area. They are only going back to the original design intent. Execution of this spiel that I doubt any of them have actually heard yet is the real difference. It may be well done and subtle in how it's presented. None of this is really new at all. I remember seeing/reading 1953 concept work where small Montecello and other landmarks were proposed along the riverbank!

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Also I think their constantly pointing fingers at Kim Irvine is misplaced and somewhat immature. That being said I wish Kim Irvine would stop giving them ammunition like overuse of the term "story" because obviously some people take it the wrong way.

Kim and her team work incredibly hard, certainly harder than they are compensated and the reason they do it is that they love what they do and the park. It's in her family legacy BTW. The river could have been drained and rehabbed with nothing new, which was probably gonna be the case, but under Tony, they probably pushed to get new things added because us guests would like it. Thanks!!!

Believe me, they don't get bonuses or promotions for this extra stuff they do. There is no measurable return on investment in these enhancements they propose, so they do it out of care. They are fans too. We all are. They have more masters to please. The sad thing would be that someday the corporation reads these debates and decides that the fans don't want enhancements of any kind and it's not worth the publicity risk to do anything new or better. Or if people like Kim and her team decide one day that they are a villified no matter how hard they try and then we lose those patriots to a few harsh critics. What a loss that would be. I'm not saying this to silence anyone, say your piece, it's just a reality which is what this thread is about.

I worked with Kim years ago and that group works insanely hard (and on their own time) to make something as good as it can be, cajoling other departments to pitch in as well for the good of the product. We did not always agree on everything, but I knew that whatever they were doing was a wholehearted team effort, and never driven by selfish interest. They just wanted the best show for the guest and it shows. If we could only see what they go through to get the smallest detail accomplished in that huge organization.

Some enhancements are better than others and are for different reasons, as many fingers play into that pie, seldom the fault of those on the front lines who have to make it all happen. If you asked them, I'm sure they would be the first to point out six more things they would have liked to have done! They are perfectionists too!

 

[IlikeDW]

Kim and her team work incredibly hard, certainly harder than they are compensated and the reason they do it is that they love what they do and the park. It's in her family legacy BTW. The river could have been drained and rehabbed with nothing new, which was probably gonna be the case, but under Tony, they probably pushed to get new things added because us guests would like it. Thanks!!!

Believe me, they don't get bonuses or promotions for this extra stuff they do. There is no measurable return on investment in these enhancements they propose, so they do it out of care. They are fans too. We all are. They have more masters to please. The sad thing would be that someday the corporation reads these debates and decides that the fans don't want enhancements of any kind and it's not worth the publicity risk to do anything new or better. Or if people like Kim and her team decide one day that they are a villified no matter how hard they try and then we lose those patriots to a few harsh critics. What a loss that would be. I'm not saying this to silence anyone, say your piece, it's just a reality which is what this thread is about.

I worked with Kim years ago and that group works insanely hard (and on their own time) to make something as good as it can be, cajoling other departments to pitch in as well for the good of the product. We did not always agree on everything, but I knew that whatever they were doing was a wholehearted team effort, and never driven by selfish interest. They just wanted the best show for the guest and it shows. If we could only see what they go through to get the smallest detail accomplished in that huge organization.

Some enhancements are better than others and are for different reasons, as many fingers play into that pie, seldom the fault of those on the front lines who have to make it all happen. If you asked them, I'm sure they would be the first to point out six more things they would have liked to have done! They are perfectionists too!

I really appreciate the perspective you bring to this forum. It is all too common to read peoples over simplified black and white view points.

Thank You

 

[HMF]

The river could have been drained and rehabbed with nothing new, which was probably gonna be the case, but under Tony, they probably pushed to get new things added because us guests would like it. Thanks!!!

I really hope Tony stays around. I have heard speculation that making Tom Fitzgerald' Creative Executive for Disneyland Resort was a elaborate move to get rid of Tony.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

I really hope Tony stays around. I have heard speculation that making Tom Fitzgerald' Creative Executive for Disneyland Resort was a elaborate move to get rid of Tony.

Tony is the park. It's his first love. He's coming up on 45 years with the company so it can't last forever..or can it? Tom worked with Tony on Star Tours. It was largely his show. And you may not realize it, but Tom was also big part of creating a show much beloved and mourned on these boards, Horizons (don't I know it!). So much so, that Tom's likeness inspired one of the AA figures in the show! See if you can figure out which one it was.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

I really appreciate the perspective you bring to this forum. It is all too common to read peoples over simplified black and white view points.

Thank You

That's exactly why I'm here. You're most welcome.

 

[HMF]

Tony is the park. It's his first love. He's coming up on 45 years with the company so it can't last forever..or can it? Tom worked with Tony on Star Tours. It was largely his show. And you may not realize it, but Tom was also big part of creating a show much beloved and mourned on these boards, Horizons (don't I know it!). So much so, that Tom's likeness inspired one of the AA figures in the show! See if you can figure out which one it was.

Of course the Tom II Animatronic. Tom also wrote what I think is the greatest piece of show writing in WDI history the 1994 version of Spaceship Earth. That being said his recent track record has brought us many things that most Disney fans detest such as the infamous Journey into YOUR Imagination. Also he seems to be relying on Video Screens over AAs. The thing is if I wanted to watch a screen I could do that at home. So yeah I think he was a better writer than show designer. As for IlikeDW's comment I must admit that having you around has changed my perspective about the way WDI works. Before I was quick to blame the Imagineers for problems and not the management. While sometimes WDI still does things that make me wonder what were they thinking? I am now a bit more understanding about certain aspects and the larger picture.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Of course the Tom II Animatronic. Tom also wrote what I think is the greatest piece of show writing in WDI history the 1994 version of Spaceship Earth. That being said his recent track record has brought us many things that most Disney fans detest such as the infamous Journey into YOUR Imagination. Also he seems to be relying on Video Screens over AAs. The thing is if I wanted to watch a screen I could do that at home. So yeah I think he was a better writer than designer.

Good history lesson. You know your stuff. But keep this in mind too.

All of our collective resumes contain projects that most fans love (Main St. in Paris) and endlessly debate (Mission Space) or hate outright. Even Tony Baxter. No one is infallible. Why?

I have learned that your work is a product not only of your judgement (which is a collective in many cases), but of the times you build in, meaning the economic and creative climate of the company. You end up with a bit of a batting average over the years and are still accountable. But hear me out.

For example, when Tony did BTM in 1979 at DL, Imagineers had huge respect and almost absolute power. He could get more of what he wanted, same with the 1st Gen Imagineers. Not as true today where the park is more your "client" to a degree. The pool of opinion is much bigger. An exception would be John Lassiter stepping in on the Nemo Sub ride and the budget soared pretty much unfettered and they dictated what they wanted. That was rare. Paul Pressler and the 1989 Tomorrowland was the polar opposite. Sponsorship can have an effect on the content, or marketing may say what type of ride the parks need. "Mission:Space" only happened in it's present form because WDW wanted a thrill ride, not a pavilion. The extent of which is based on how much sponsor money is or is not thrown your way.

Not to say we should not be held accountable as creative execs, we are. But the context around these shows sheds light on why things can be so far off of their game. The skill becomes getting the best product given the circumstances and knowing how to preserve a great idea despite the "filters".

 

[HMF]

Good history lesson. You know your stuff. But keep this in mind too.

All of our collective resumes contain projects that most fans love (Main St. in Paris) and endlessly debate (Mission Space) or hate outright. Even Tony Baxter. No one is infallible. Why?

I have learned that your work is a product not only of your judgement (which is a collective in many cases), but of the times you build in, meaning the economic and creative climate of the company. You end up with a bit of a batting average over the years and are still accountable. But hear me out.

For example, when Tony did BTM in 1979 at DL, Imagineers had huge respect and almost absolute power. He could get more of what he wanted, same with the 1st Gen Imagineers. Not as true today where the park is more your "client" to a degree. The pool of opinion is much bigger. An exception would be John Lassiter stepping in on the Nemo Sub ride and the budget soared pretty much unfettered and they dictated what they wanted. That was rare. Paul Pressler and the 1989 Tomorrowland was the polar opposite. Sponsorship can have an effect on the content, or marketing may say what type of ride the parks need. "Mission:Space" only happened in it's present form because WDW wanted a thrill ride, not a pavilion. The extent of which is based on how much sponsor money is or is not thrown your way.

Not to say we should not be held accountable as creative execs, we are. But the context around these shows sheds light on why things can be so far off of their game. The skill becomes getting the best product given the circumstances and knowing how to preserve a great idea despite the "filters".

It does kind of upset me that how back in the early days WED basically told Park Operations how to run the park and nowadays Park Ops tells WDI what they want. That being said that problem is far more apparent at WDW than at Disneyland and Disney's California Adventure in which it looks like WDI is really having fun with the details and are making the park better after the micro-managed hostile environment that produced the first incarnation of DCA.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

It does kind of upset me that how back in the early days WED basically told Park Operations how to run the park and nowadays Park Ops tells WDI what they want. That being said that problem is far more apparent at WDW than at Disneyland and Disney's California Adventure in which it looks like WDI is really having fun with the details and are making the pak better after the micro-managed hostile environment that produced the first incarnation of DCA.

I wish it was as clean cut as that. I think credibility was lost at times through excess. I have heard that the relationship atmosphere is better now than it used to be when I was there, only there are more layers of approval which can water things down. I think they are having "fun with details" because the park didn't have many of them so they get this one shot to add them and hope it brings in the guests. WDW gets whole new parks as opposed to the DCA triage type thing. WDW's parks are not failing like DCA was. I guess the new HM and HOP you have is well done.

 

[Alektronic]

It does kind of upset me that how back in the early days WED basically told Park Operations how to run the park and nowadays Park Ops tells WDI what they want. That being said that problem is far more apparent at WDW than at Disneyland and Disney's California Adventure in which it looks like WDI is really having fun with the details and are making the pak better after the micro-managed hostile environment that produced the first incarnation of DCA.

To me it seems like the beancounters and lawyers are running things. Ops said what they want, and the beancounters say how cheap they want it done and the lawyers are all about safety and not being sued. So being creative and fun is way down the list. I don't blame Disney for over engineering their rides for safety because everyone wants a free payout for a supposely unsafe ride. I'm glad Disney won against that guy who said he was injured on TOT.

 

[wserratore1963]

:sohappy::sohappy:

Kim and her team work incredibly hard, certainly harder than they are compensated and the reason they do it is that they love what they do and the park. It's in her family legacy BTW. The river could have been drained and rehabbed with nothing new, which was probably gonna be the case, but under Tony, they probably pushed to get new things added because us guests would like it. Thanks!!!

Believe me, they don't get bonuses or promotions for this extra stuff they do. There is no measurable return on investment in these enhancements they propose, so they do it out of care. They are fans too. We all are. They have more masters to please. The sad thing would be that someday the corporation reads these debates and decides that the fans don't want enhancements of any kind and it's not worth the publicity risk to do anything new or better. Or if people like Kim and her team decide one day that they are a villified no matter how hard they try and then we lose those patriots to a few harsh critics. What a loss that would be. I'm not saying this to silence anyone, say your piece, it's just a reality which is what this thread is about.

I worked with Kim years ago and that group works insanely hard (and on their own time) to make something as good as it can be, cajoling other departments to pitch in as well for the good of the product. We did not always agree on everything, but I knew that whatever they were doing was a wholehearted team effort, and never driven by selfish interest. They just wanted the best show for the guest and it shows. If we could only see what they go through to get the smallest detail accomplished in that huge organization.

Some enhancements are better than others and are for different reasons, as many fingers play into that pie, seldom the fault of those on the front lines who have to make it all happen. If you asked them, I'm sure they would be the first to point out six more things they would have liked to have done! They are perfectionists too!

Here, here! Thanks for the reminder and GOD Bless them all!
WE need more (much more) of that sentiment & commitment!!

 

[mickey2008.1]

Eddie, do you think Iger will get involved with FLE like WOC? Its a pretty major addition to the most popular park in in the world, will he step in and make sure it goes perfect.

 

[JimJam]

Oh No

 

[HMF]

I guess the new HM and HOP you have is well done.

The only reason they did the HM refurb was because the ride was practically falling apart. Somehow Eric Jacobson and Kathy Rogers (Who ironically had just worked on the controversial POTC Refurb that many fans strongly disliked including myself though my objections are more about the execution than the concept.) managed to completely fix and enhance the Mansion within 3 and a half months. They then went on to do the awesome Hall of Presidents refurb.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Eddie, do you think Iger will get involved with FLE like WOC? Its a pretty major addition to the most popular park in in the world, will he step in and make sure it goes perfect.

No idea.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

To me it seems like the beancounters and lawyers are running things. Ops said what they want, and the beancounters say how cheap they want it done and the lawyers are all about safety and not being sued. So being creative and fun is way down the list. I don't blame Disney for over engineering their rides for safety because everyone wants a free payout for a supposely unsafe ride. I'm glad Disney won against that guy who said he was injured on TOT.

It's like that to a degree, but as you point out safety has to come first. I don't work there anymore so I'm not on the inside. From what I can see, there are still fun and creative things going on in spite of any corporate structure. I imagine that WOC sprinkler show will be awesome. The test videos look pretty incredible. LED seems to be at the heart of all that color. wow.

 

[misterID]

Yeah, from what I've read the concept of the POTC refurb sounded fantastic, with the ride going outside and the alternate Pirates of the Scaribbean ride at night... I hope someone with some greater sense of what makes a great attraction and who is actually concerned with the art, originality and even the heritage of what WDI and Disney attractions means will come into power.

I thought Lasseter would be that guy. Only time will tell. He only seems to be using his position on Pixar themed rides. And only at DL. I still think its criminal that they're pretty much ignoring AK when it has the potential to be the best Disney park of them all. I feel bad for Joe Rohde.

I do wonder with Tom Fitzgerald if the Imagination refurb was his idea, or he was simply given an outline of what the sponsor/management wanted. I mean, someone had to know that a huge backlash was coming.

 

[HMF]

Looks like more bad news from Disneyland's Rivers of America. Apparently Tony and Kim's budgets were cut and the new "additions" are plastic animals that can be bought at your local Wal-Mart.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Looks like more bad news from Disneyland's Rivers of America. Apparently Tony and Kim's budgets were cut and the new "additions" are plastic animals that can be bought at your local Wal-Mart.

Are you sure? Some of them are live animals! There are now some real horses in the Indian Village. The pictures I saw depicted the static figures in poses that work well visually. They have deer drinking from the river and guys spying from the banks, so that looks more believable than critters in mid stride. I'm not sure if they still have the Shaman who is very well animated.