Eddie Sotto's take on the current state of the parks

[jt04]

Good point and so true. Alain has built a huge online archive now that will stay up. I don't know of any site that has that much WDI art posted. When we did interviews he would send me things to comment on I had not seen since they were first drawn. When he did that DLP Book I think they gave him access to lots of imagery, but we all benefit from that and his passion to write those great articles.

Yes, and I'm glad to hear he will keep his site going as an archive. It never ceased to amaze me and he really was becomming the source for buzz coming out of Imagineering. I have a feeling the mouse leaned on him or his sources. It was great while it lasted and we should all be grateful for his amazing work. Thanks Alain!!!

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Knott's this weekend

Well, this weekend is the Knott's Berry Farm panel discussion. I'm excited to go to it, but feel pretty old at the same time. It's just kind of hitting me that working there was 30 YEARS ago! Most of you are under 30. I know. Anyway. Chris Merritt did a great job on his book and deserves a great launch for it. So be it.

It got me thinking about what it was like and how hard it was to get a start in this wacky business. I think I was in the right place, at the right time by being persistent. My old friend and first boss Rick Campbell will be there on Sunday and I'm looking forward to that too. Rick designed the 20's area and the Airfield. Right guy for the right project. He thought I might be able to support him creatively. It's good to run into someone who does not see you for who you are, but who you could be. Then all you have to do is live up to it. I was a washer salesman from Sears, so there was not much for him to go on and alot for me to live up to. Brought some storyboards of a ride I'd proposed and some moody models, but that was it.

Disney Legend Rolly and his talented son Chris Crump will be there and they are always good for some laughs and great stories. Should be fun. Time really passes and you can't really go back but it's fun to try. I NEVER dreamed anyone would be talking about the "Soap Box Ride" 30 years later. Never dreamed I'd be on something called an iPad either. Go figure! So swing by if you can. Maybe some of you left coasters will be there.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Knott's Event/

Wow. The Knott's event was both fun and moving. Chris and Eric did a great job illustrating the history of the farm through rare and historic slides. I really would suggest this book as it is truly an inspiring American success story. Walter Knott built quite an empire from a humble berry stand and did it taking risks and using his imagination.

http://www.amazon.com/dp/1883318971/?tag=jfsite4-20

Bud Hurlbut built some of the best rides ever conceived and they inspired lots of things in attractions at Disney. Rolly and Chris Crump told great stories about how the ride they designed got changed upteen times then burned down! There are great lessons in design to be found in the Knott's Story and my short time there last night reminded me just how special and unique "the farm" is.

If Disneyland is about exploring new worlds, Knott's is about coming home. It's casual, folksy and real. I learned not to directly compare Disney and Knott's anymore. I'd rather see them as two distinct art styles that are masterpieces in their own right.

Here's a short article till more comes out.
http://ocresort.freedomblogging.com...ory-book-nearly-20-years-in-the-making/41593/

 

[TP2000]

Walter Knott built quite an empire from a humble berry stand and did it taking risks and using his imagination.

So true, and I always give a thought to the Knott family every time I buy a jar of their delicious Knott's boysenberry preserves at the supermarket.

Knott's Berry Farm the theme park has changed quite a bit in the last decade, and I'll leave that discussion for another day. But the story behind the Knott family is truly a great American success story, and an important part of not just Orange County history, but American theme park history as well.

So many visits to Knott's Berry Farm in the 1950's and 60's by Walt, his current Imagineers, and future Imagineers influenced things to come at Disneyland. And thus, they influenced things to come at WDW and other theme parks in the 1970's. It's nice that Orange County, California has not just one, but two, great theme park success stories. :sohappy:

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Knott's Inspiration

So many visits to Knott's Berry Farm in the 1950's and 60's by Walt, his current Imagineers, and future Imagineers influenced things to come at Disneyland.

This is very true, Big Thunder Mountain, Indiana Jones, TDL Pooh's Hunny Hunt and most likely Frontierland have been shadowed by visits to Knott's. I tried to get a "competitive cycle type" ride into Disney in Sci-Fi City to no avail, but maybe the Tron Cycles will end up happening. All based on the Cycle Chase from the farm. Walt even hired the indians for his Indian village from Knott's. That was probably the last straw.

 

[TP2000]

This is very true, Big Thunder Mountain, Indiana Jones, TDL Pooh's Hunny Hunt and most likely Frontierland have been shadowed by visits to Knott's.

And yet what is interesting about Knott's is that their classic E Ticket style attractions from the 1960's, notably Calico Mine Train and Calico Log Ride, have stayed pretty much exactly the same as they were when Lyndon Johnson was in the White House. If anything, some of the effects have been turned off or decayed to the point of irrelevance.

Contrast that to Disneyland, where they plus and improve and tweak (with an occasional bigger update every couple of decades) all the attractions from the 1950's and 60's, from the Jungle Cruise and Matterhorn to small attractions like Alice In Wonderland or StorybookLand Canal Boats. They get pretty consistent TLC at Disneyland, and still look fresh and relevant in the 21st century.

But at Knott's, all they really do is change the lightbulbs, dust a little bit, and repaint once a decade. You really gain an appreciation for what Disneyland (and most other Disney theme parks) does with their facilities and shows by spending a day at Knott's and going on the circa 1960 mine train and the circa 1968 log ride. Those rides at Knott's can be fun for a theme park history buff, but I can only imagine that for the average 12 year old in 2010 it seems very hokey.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

And yet what is interesting about Knott's is that their classic E Ticket style attractions from the 1960's, notably Calico Mine Train and Calico Log Ride, have stayed pretty much exactly the same as they were when Lyndon Johnson was in the White House. If anything, some of the effects have been turned off or decayed to the point of irrelevance. .

The upkeep of those classic KBF shows is not what it used to be, that's true. It is interesting to note that when Bud Hurlbut owned them himself (he sold them to the farm in 84) he did add things to update them. He maintains his shows very well. The Mine Ride had static figures, but he later animated them. The Log Ride had squirting effects added, things like that. My sense today is that the current owner is focused on thrill rides and knows them very well, so that is their priority. The shows get neglected as they perhaps see them as dated and not worth maintaining. A self fulfilling prophesy.

The inspiration in those rides is the genius found in their layouts. The Calico Mine Ride has an economy in track layout that inspired the single open temple concept in Indiana Jones. Brilliant use of the same dramatic scene from different angles. (I prefer the Log Ride to Splash Mountain!)

The book party seemed to get everyone interested in the potential of bringing some of the old things and magic back to the farm. Once you see the history and how great it was you realize what you have. The book being in front of the present owners may help bring about a bit of a renaissance to the farm. They are all great people down there, many of which were around when I was, they know the past, but this may give them some ammo to work with. Everyone could not have been kinder to us. They have the spirit and the Chicken tasted great!.

 

[misterID]

Man, I really had no idea how important Knotts was to Disney, and I guess theme parks in general, until this thread. Good stuff.

My sense today is that the current owner is focused on thrill rides and knows them very well, so that is their priority.

I've never really understood why so many park focus on thrill rides. They're cutting out a huge group of people by doing that.

 

[Master Yoda]

Man, I really had no idea how important Knotts was to Disney, and I guess theme parks in general, until this thread. Good stuff.



I've never really understood why so many park focus on thrill rides. They're cutting out a huge group of people by doing that.

It is just the sad reality is that it what drives people to most theme/amusement parks. Parks are going to build what makes the turnstiles spin.

 

[Bender!]

I do have to agree, for the the Experimental Prototype City of Tomorrow, there's not really much that lives up to its name, except for Spaceship Earth, Mission: SPACE, and some cutely named restaraunts. At least from what I can see.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Man, I really had no idea how important Knotts was to Disney, and I guess theme parks in general, until this thread. Good stuff.



I've never really understood why so many park focus on thrill rides. They're cutting out a huge group of people by doing that.

To some degree, Coasters are easy and financially predictible. Companies make them without you risking the design $$ .You order it and they put it in. There is a predicted reaction from a certain younger demographic that last 18 months or so, and then you are into the next thrill ride that must top the last. Parks wind up with collections and tear out the least popular one to make room for the next. Show attractions are not easy to market, have higher design costs and who knows if anyone will show up for it. Shows depend on the audience identifying with the imagery or topic and they are usually more expensive to install and maintain. Show Attractions like POTC or HM are few and far between, but when executed well, outlast the others as "classics". So there is room for both.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Epcot 1977

I do have to agree, for the the Experimental Prototype City of Tomorrow, there's not really much that lives up to its name, except for Spaceship Earth, Mission: SPACE, and some cutely named restaraunts. At least from what I can see.

For the real EPCOT..... READ THIS 1977 VERSION. AMAZING ARTICLE

Here's an excerpt from the statement made at the 1977 shareholders meeting about the goals of EPCOT.

"As conceived here, EPCOT will be a “Showcase for prototype concepts,” demonstrating practical applications of new ideas and systems from creative centers everywhere. It will provide an “on-going forum of the future,” where the best thinking of industry, government and academia is exchanged to communicate practical solutions to the needs of the world community. It will be a “communicator to the world,” utilizing the growing spectrum of information transfer to bring new knowledge to the public. Finally, EPCOT will be a permanent “international people-to-people exchange,” advancing the cause of world understanding."

In addition, we are convinced that EPCOT will provide a much needed symbol of hope and optimism that our major challenges can, and will be met. It will provide outstanding family entertainment from which people may draw enlightenment, as well as enjoyment. And it will, of course, represent a major new extension of our business activities around the world."

Sounds like the internet. Here's the rest with images.

http://progresscityusa.com/2010/04/20/epcot-origins-1977-master-plan-5/comment-page-1/#comment-6178

 

[HMF]

But at Knott's, all they really do is change the lightbulbs, dust a little bit, and repaint once a decade. You really gain an appreciation for what Disneyland (and most other Disney theme parks) does with their facilities and shows by spending a day at Knott's and going on the circa 1960 mine train and the circa 1968 log ride. Those rides at Knott's can be fun for a theme park history buff, but I can only imagine that for the average 12 year old in 2010 it seems very hokey.

I think it's a very tricky thing when you update anything in Disneyland or Walt Disney World. You have to be sensitive to two groups. One is the group who have been going there for years and are very nostalgic you want to please them. But you also have to please the young kids of today and make it relevant for them as well. My belief is as long as you stick to the original spirit refurbishments to attractions are always welcome. Within the past few years WDI has made fantastic upgrades to existing attractions. (Haunted Mansion) and others that completely miss the mark and show that someone involved did not understand why the ride worked in the first place (Pirates of the Caribbean, Spaceship Earth). Of course' there is one group who don't want the parks to change whatsoever. I really don't pay that much attention to them. All my opinion of course.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

I thin it's a very tricky thing when you update anything in Disneyland or Walt Disney World. You have to be sensitive to two groups. One is the group who have been going there for years and are very nostalgic you want to please them. But you also have to please the young kids of today and make it relevant for them as well. My belief is as long as you stick to the original spirit refurbishments to attractions are always welcome. Within the past few years WDI has made fantastic upgrades to existing attractions. (Haunted Mansion) and others that completely miss the mark and show that someone involved did not understand why the ride worked in the first place (Pirates of the Caribbean, Spaceship Earth). Of course' there is one group who don't want the parks to change whatsoever. I really don't pay that much attention to them. All my opinion of course.

Welcome to being an Imagineer. You tend to not completely please anyone but the average guest.

 

[jt04]

Welcome to being an Imagineer. You tend to not completely please anyone but the average guest.

Tourists.

 

[misterID]

To some degree, Coasters are easy and financially predictible. Companies make them without you risking the design $$ .You order it and they put it in. There is a predicted reaction from a certain younger demographic that last 18 months or so, and then you are into the next thrill ride that must top the last. Parks wind up with collections and tear out the least popular one to make room for the next. Show attractions are not easy to market, have higher design costs and who knows if anyone will show up for it. Shows depend on the audience identifying with the imagery or topic and they are usually more expensive to install and maintain. Show Attractions like POTC or HM are few and far between, but when executed well, outlast the others as "classics". So there is room for both.

Yeah, I guess a dark ride is a big investment. I always wondered about ride like Dreamflight: is there ever a thought when planning a ride not to invest too much into it so it wouldn't be a huge loss if its not profitable? Or make it easy to replace.

And I think I remember you saying once that you didn't consider Journey To The Center Of The Earth a big E (and if you didn't I apologize!). What do you think that ride would need, or what its lacking, to make it an "E."

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Yeah, I guess a dark ride is a big investment. I always wondered about ride like Dreamflight: is there ever a thought when planning a ride not to invest too much into it so it wouldn't be a huge loss if its not profitable? Or make it easy to replace.

And I think I remember you saying once that you didn't consider Journey To The Center Of The Earth a big E (and if you didn't I apologize!). What do you think that ride would need, or what its lacking, to make it an "E."

I did say that and to some fans, they be fightin' words. I just watched it on youtube to refresh my memory.

First it's "E plus" production value and theming. The volcano itself is amazing. TDS rocks. Maybe that's my problem with it, it's hard for the show to surpass the queue and the mountain itself and live up to it's expectation. I rode it and I thought that it did not payoff big enough, the thrills were not that thrilling and the ending/climax did not really wow me at all. It needed more. You build through lots of beautiful environmental show to seeing a big snake creature that does not really do that much, and then you kinda race out but it's not that intense. I gave it a strong D plus. Didn't feel like i had to repeat it. Tower of Terror I do. Everest succeeds as a stronger thrill ride and the show elements are also striking. Nothing about Journey kept me guessing or exceeded expectations. The ride system felt like the thrill of test track. Most will not agree with me, but that is my take.

 

[misterID]

Nah, you're right. The lava monster is pretty anti climactic. It looks like something you'd find in a Chinese New year parade. I thought everything up to that point was pretty cool. I just didn't know if you didn't like the ride itself

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Another topic to think about.

Another area to consider if you are a designer is the vehicle itself and the effect it has on the guest. The sensations felt from the feedback of the vehicle play a big part of the overall rating impression the guest gives the ride.

Disneyland's Matterhorn is getting in line single person seating configuration versus "toboggan" style two person sharing a less supportive, tub style seat.

http://micechat.com/forums/disneyland-resort/135593-new-matterhorn-bobsled-merged-threads.html

Socially it was understood that dates liked the idea of holding on to each other as it was a natural excuse to be close and added a unique dimension to the ride. This kind of configuration has been around since Coney Island.

The tub interior allowed you to feel a bit more at risk in that you were not tightly held into it and caused you to hold on to interior cleats handles. I think this was a bit of the thrill of the ride. I'm curious as to the effect a traditional seat will have as to taking out the precariousness of the ride experience. Can't know till I get on it. All stuff a designer wants to think about. It all matters in some way.

The one thing you can say will likely improve, is the guest sight lines to the show. Without someone in your lap, you can see the areas around you to the sides much better.

It will be interesting to see how the ride experience is changed (especially for couples that are now separated) just by the dynamic of the orientation of the guest. I will say that the ride changed significantly when it went from a single vehicle to two sleds linked. There was a more jerky sensation to it. So perhaps they fixed that with the suspension.

Note that the capacity will go down from 4 to 3 guests per sled as odd numbers are a bit harder to seat. To keep the numbers up, they will have to make an effort to "harvest" single riders aggressively to fill the odd seats (or just force the separation). All part of a designers per view to deal with. I know that some small kids (like mine) didn't want to ride alone in the big seat and want their parent holding them, so this will be something to deal with as well.

Thought it would be worth posting for Armchair Imagineer discussion. What would you do? Do you think the vehicle is that important? What shows suffer or are made successful largely by their vehicle design? Energy? Everest? HM? Autopia?

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Tim Delaney Artwork

Wanna see some great Disney concept art? I always do. My talented friend Tim Delaney recently launched his own site with some outstanding artwork from the parks as his portfolio, especially EPCOT.

Beautiful stuff.

http://timjdelaney.com/home.html