Eddie Sotto's take on the current state of the parks

[TP2000]

Woah. It's those "inside sources" again. They are SO busy. I'm a pretty outside source as some have pointed out. News to me. Hmm, the Arcades in Paris are scaled to the WDW Facades and pretty roomy, like 15 feet wide. The Facades in Anaheim are considerably shorter and so the Arcade if there is one would likely be a more modest one. As I recall, it is really tight behind the JC, but anything is possible at Disneyland! . My guess is that they could justify it as more retail footage and it would kind of pay for itself.

Yes, but the "inside sources" on Miceage are saying the Arcade is being considered for the East side of Main Street, not the West side along the Jungle Cruise property.

From Google Maps, there's a lot more room on the East side of the street between the Main Street buildings and Space Mountain/Star Tours. Like 100+ feet of room.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Yes, but the "inside sources" on Miceage are saying the Arcade is being considered for the East side of Main Street, not the West side along the Jungle Cruise property.

From Google Maps, there's a lot more room on the East side of the street between the Main Street buildings and Space Mountain/Star Tours. Like 100+ feet of room.

I read that. Sounds good to me. It's been pitched on that side many times. "International Street" was planned to use that same route just after the park opened but that sidestreet project has been a bit "doomed" for years.

It's pretty roomy back there, but the issue always has been the nonstop restocking of the stores from behind without crossing the Arcade. We'll see if they finally make it happen this round.

 

[EPCOT Explorer]

I read that. Sounds good to me. It's been pitched on that side many times. "International Street" was planned to use that same route just after the park opened but that sidestreet project has been a bit "doomed" for years.

It's pretty roomy back there, but the issue always has been the nonstop restocking of the stores from behind without crossing the Arcade. We'll see if they finally make it happen this round.

How close is that tied to the "International Land" that appeared on maps in the late 50's for Disneyland? :lol:


...And WS for that matter!

 

[Eddie Sotto]

How close is that tied to the "International Land" that appeared on maps in the late 50's for Disneyland? :lol:


...And WS for that matter!

Same thing. It quickly became a proposal for Liberty Street, then an Edison Square idea developed later as well.

http://www.billlund.com/Mousemaps/Mousemaps3/MouseMaps3-1958/1958a lg.html

http://davelandweb.com/centralplaza/

 

[ValentineMouse]

The issue always has been the nonstop restocking of the stores from behind without crossing the Arcade.

I've always wondered what Disney tactics were for dealing with these unconnected shop/restaurant 'islands' - at least when there's no utilidors. How does Disneyland Paris' Main Street deal with this, Eddie?

 

[EPCOT Explorer]

Same thing. It quickly became a proposal for Liberty Street, then an Edison Square idea developed later as well.

http://www.billlund.com/Mousemaps/Mousemaps3/MouseMaps3-1958/1958a lg.html

http://davelandweb.com/centralplaza/

So we go from a "International Area" to an "American" one, to one based in "Progress", and it's ALL build on the other coast. :lol: Cool stuff!

 

[Eddie Sotto]

I've always wondered what Disney tactics were for dealing with these unconnected shop/restaurant 'islands' - at least when there's no utilidors. How does Disneyland Paris' Main Street deal with this, Eddie?

They have an upstairs stockroom above the shop and the arcades have hidden bridges for each block that go over the guests that lead to that stockroom. On one block there is an employee cafeteria upstairs.

 

[HMF]

Just a heads up' recently released former Imagineer Tim Delaney has an interview on a podcast called seasonpass.
http://micechat.com/forums/micepod-podcasts/132922-wdis-tim-delaney-season-pass.html#post1055847107
Lots of cool stuff and he tells you who the Show Producer was for each land in DLP was. (Which is interesting for me).
Executive designer - Tony Baxter
Main Street USA-Eddie obviously
Adventureland-Chris Tietz
Frontierland-Jeff Burke. (For you Epcot fans he was one of the "Two Brothers" in American Adventure)
Fantasyland-Tom Morris
Discoveryland-Tim

 

[RandySavage]

Hi Eddie,

In the following pic of DLP, you can see that the rear of the soutwest main street buildings appear to be themed (the brick facade with the painted words Remington Mechanics).

My guess would be that when Main Street Motors actually sold vintage automobiles, this is where they were kept/test driven.

Can you shed some light on this mystery? Thanks.


Photographer credit:
http://www.pbase.com/thunderide/aerialdisneyland

 

[RandySavage]

Just a heads up' recently released former Imagineer Tim Delaney has an interview on a podcast called seasonpass.
http://micechat.com/forums/micepod-podcasts/132922-wdis-tim-delaney-season-pass.html#post1055847107
Lots of cool stuff and he tells you who the Show Producer was for each land in DLP was. (Which is interesting for me).
Executive designer - Tony Baxter
Main Street USA-Eddie obviously
Adventureland-Chris Tietz
Frontierland-Jeff Burke. (For you Epcot fans he was one of the "Two Brothers" in American Adventure)
Fantasyland-Tom Morris
Discoveryland-Tim

HMF, if you don't already have it, you should get yourself a copy of From Sketch to Reality, the best book ever published about a Disney park: http://disneyandmore.blogspot.com/2009/12/looking-for-great-disney-gift-for.html. There is information from each of those designers on their respective lands. Tom Morris went on to be the executive designer of HKDL.

 

[HMF]

HMF, if you don't already have it, you should get yourself a copy of From Sketch to Reality, the best book ever published about a Disney park: http://disneyandmore.blogspot.com/2009/12/looking-for-great-disney-gift-for.html. There is information from each of those designers on their respective lands. Tom Morris went on to be the executive designer of HKDL.

I will look into it. However I have never been to DLP.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

HMF, if you don't already have it, you should get yourself a copy of From Sketch to Reality, the best book ever published about a Disney park: http://disneyandmore.blogspot.com/2009/12/looking-for-great-disney-gift-for.html. There is information from each of those designers on their respective lands. Tom Morris went on to be the executive designer of HKDL.

Best source for the most complete and attractive collection of DLP imagery.

http://www.photosmagiques.com/gallery/disneyland_park/main_street_usa/index.php

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Hi Eddie,

In the following pic of DLP, you can see that the rear of the soutwest main street buildings appear to be themed (the brick facade with the painted words Remington Mechanics).

My guess would be that when Main Street Motors actually sold vintage automobiles, this is where they were kept/test driven.

Can you shed some light on this mystery? Thanks.


Photographer credit:
http://www.pbase.com/thunderide/aerialdisneyland

Sure. As far as I can recall, we bought 3 cars, the Vintage Cars were both onstage, maybe there was a third on the warehouse. They killed the sales idea early on and Tom Morris who was in charge of DLP after opening used the 2 cars as photo ops/displays. Today it's all merchandise.

http://www.photosmagiques.com/gallery/disneyland_park/main_street_usa/main_street_motors.php

The Facades were created on the West Arcade to address Frontierland as there are sightline issues. I'm not aware of any real relationship other than story.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Where to go from 3D? 4D? 5D? Double D?

"Alice in Wonderland" did big weekend business in 3D. When you read the reviews, most say the story was dull but "Wonderland" was amazing. No surprise.

In theme parks we try to deliver what a movie cannot, which usually is the "world" of that 2D fantasy in 3D, meaning we actually build it. The "wow" has been that it is finally real to you and you are in the middle of it. So when a surreal world is already created in 3D in the movie and you experience that for 2 hours, how much desire will there be to visit it as a real place? Maybe more? True, you can linger and wonder around in the park version, but that's constrained by the realities of wheelchair ramps, exit signs, queues, gravity, crowds and other spell breaking distractions from the fantasy. Will the 3D movie fulfill the "Jones" of being in that surreal world, or whet the appetite for more, but at a higher level of expectation?

With rides like "Toy Story Midway Mania" out there or even "Nemo Subs" (even EO for that matter) where media is used in 3D and or 2D embedded in 3D physical places, you can see the motivation is there to deal with that or deliver on it in the same way. Once it starts as 3D at the movies, where does it go next as a platform? TSMM is the Wii or "interactive" version. Maybe that's the answer, but the home is catching up on that front. I think it's an interesting discussion for you future ride designers out there.

In the future, how well can "bricks and mortar" fantasy compete (or live up to the expectations set in) tomorrow's immersive 3D movies?

 

[jt04]

"Alice in Wonderland" did big weekend business in 3D. When you read the reviews, most say the story was dull but "Wonderland" was amazing. No surprise.

In theme parks we try to deliver what a movie cannot, which usually is the "world" of that 2D fantasy in 3D, meaning we actually build it. The "wow" has been that it is finally real to you and you are in the middle of it. So when a surreal world is already created in 3D in the movie and you experience that for 2 hours, how much desire will there be to visit it as a real place? Maybe more? True, you can linger and wonder around in the park version, but that's constrained by the realities of wheelchair ramps, exit signs, queues, gravity, crowds and other spell breaking distractions from the fantasy. Will the 3D movie fulfill the "Jones" of being in that surreal world, or whet the appetite for more, but at a higher level of expectation?

With rides like "Toy Story Midway Mania" out there or even "Nemo Subs" (even EO for that matter) where media is used in 3D and or 2D embedded in 3D physical places, you can see the motivation is there to deal with that or deliver on it in the same way. Once it starts as 3D at the movies, where does it go next as a platform? TSMM is the Wii or "interactive" version. Maybe that's the answer, but the home is catching up on that front. I think it's an interesting discussion for you future ride designers out there.

In the future, how well can "bricks and mortar" fantasy compete (or live up to the expectations set in) tomorrow's immersive 3D movies?

Hence the motivation to move towards interactive participatory experiences such as those planned for the FLE. And TWWoHP for that matter. That is what so many critics of the new Meet & Greets are missing.

The new FLE experience is a look into the future. Passive dark rides are going to be tougher to justify now. LM may be the last end of an era and way of doing business.

Discovery Cove, TWWoHP, FLE and the Kim Possible Adventure are cutting edge. Disney should keep those Night Kingdom plans in mind. They may be needing them.

 

[RandySavage]

Eddie, thanks for answering my question.

***

One of the first things I thought after seeing "Avatar" was that it reminded me of a great, classic theme park attraction in that it every frame was bursting with gorgeously designed, hyper-detailed, transportative elements. Obviously in film, story is of paramount importance (I happened to like Avatar's story), but the visual feast of a fully-rendered fantasy world felt akin to something that only really good theme park can do.

Similarly, I find the appeal and repeatability of attractions like Pirates, Haunted Mansion, JTTCOTE, Horizons, Tom Sawyer Island and Maharajah Jungle Trekm among others lies in the myriad of beautifully-rendered, smal details - each journey may reveal something wonderful heretofore unseen.

So while my views may not be mainstream, I think the advent of highly-detailed, large-frame feature films that take the viewer to another world (Avatar, Harry Potter, Alice) make 3-D/screen-based experiences like T-2 3-D, Shrek 3-D, Honey I Shrunk the Audience, Finding Nemo rides, Toy Story Mania, less compelling, while making highly-detailed, non-screen-based, immersive attractions more timeless and compelling.

 

[HMF]

Eddie, thanks for answering my question.

***

One of the first things I thought after seeing "Avatar" was that it reminded me of a great, classic theme park attraction in that it every frame was bursting with gorgeously designed, hyper-detailed, transportative elements. Obviously in film, story is of paramount importance (I happened to like Avatar's story), but the visual feast of a fully-rendered fantasy world felt akin to something that only really good theme park can do.

Similarly, I find the appeal and repeatability of attractions like Pirates, Haunted Mansion, JTTCOTE, Horizons, Tom Sawyer Island and Maharajah Jungle Trekm among others lies in the myriad of beautifully-rendered, smal details - each journey may reveal something wonderful heretofore unseen.

So while my views may not be mainstream, I think the advent of highly-detailed, large-frame feature films that take the viewer to another world (Avatar, Harry Potter, Alice) make 3-D/screen-based experiences like T-2 3-D, Shrek 3-D, Honey I Shrunk the Audience, Finding Nemo rides, Toy Story Mania, less compelling, while making highly-detailed, non-screen-based, immersive attractions more timeless and compelling.

I have been saying for a while that the over-use of Video screen-based Attractions have been a major problem for WDI in recent years. While rides like Soarin' and Toy Story Midway Mania are great attractions When you use a video screen in place of Audio-Animatronics you make the guest feel as though you are watching a movie not immerse them in three-dimensional worlds. I was completely dumbfounded by WDI's recent decision to outsource Animatronic production (Which WDI invented mind you) and the subsequent laying off of Sculptor Valerie Edwards plus the possibility of Tony Baxter being forced into retirement. Also regarding Avatar as we all know that story has never been told before and is completely original except for "The Man who dances with Wolves.' "Pocahontas, Ferngully and the Matrix.

 

[ChrisFL]

I was completely dumbfounded by WDI's recent decision to outsource Animatronic production (Which WDI invented mind you)

I don't see this as necessarily a bad thing. If they can keep quality up and make more animatronics for less money, then what's the problem?

Most of the animatronics made these days are not new/revolutionary designs...and I'm sure the ones that are would still be designed and made by WDI.

 

[gettingsmaller]

I have been saying for a while that the over-use of Video screen-based Attractions have been a major problem for WDI in recent years. While rides like Soarin' and Toy Story Midway Mania are great attractions When you use a video screen in place of Audio-Animatronics you make the guest feel as though you are watching a movie not immerse them in three-dimensional worlds. I was completely dumbfounded by WDI's recent decision to outsource Animatronic production (Which WDI invented mind you) and the subsequent laying off of Sculptor Valerie Edwards plus the possibility of Tony Baxter being forced into retirement. Also regarding Avatar as we all know that story has never been told before and is completely original except for "The Man who dances with Wolves.' "Pocahontas, Ferngully and the Matrix.

First off, I love the classic dark ride, but one place that I think that they (or screen-based rides) can compete with the new wave of 3-d movies is the senses of smell and touch. It's amazing what a fan can do when paired with the sounds and sights of a tornado--OR--how many people do you see here talking about the smell of Rome burning? How about the feel of warm breath when you're staring at a toothy dino? Things like this (particularly smell, I think) are something the ride designers can exploit to "top" those movie experiences.

Besides, I think there is an emotional difference between sitting in a theater seat and watching a screen vs. walking through a nicely done park or riding through a well done ride...

Just the whole experience of being away from everything at a park--with work and other troubles miles away--is reason enough for me to have the desire to be in the World...

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Check this out...

I noticed on the Disneyology blog (when I was 12 I called myself a "Disnetologist" till the mouse lawyers wrote me and made me stop!) someone is responding to our discussion. Interesting read so I thought I'd call attention to it here.

http://disneyology.blogspot.com/2010/03/3d-films-versus-3d-environments.html