Eddie Sotto's take on the current state of the parks

[Eddie Sotto]

Just curious since I've gathered you had a lot of insight in Tokyo, what was the reasoning behind this. Tokyo's climate is much milder than Paris and while they can get snow it's very rare. In fact, the whole glass conservatory look (in my mind at least) would have worked much better at DLP. At Tokyo I just stared at it and wondered why it was even needed.

It snows in Tokyo and gets very cold like Paris. Both parks have their extremes. I was not at WDI when TDL park was built. I can address DLP, and it was destined to have the glass roof just like TDL. Tony Baxter did not like the acoustics or the shadows cast from the glass roof (I agree) and in Summer, when most of the guests are there it's not nearly as attractive. They want the raw sunshine and sky. We opted for the arcades instead as you can have both and operations liked the extra passageway for parade blowoff, etc. Overall the Arcades have gotten good guest reviews and work well functionally. I see your point about similar weather.

 

[Exprcoofto]

Have entire lands being "indoors" ever been talked about at WDI? I've sketched out three parks for a location in New England, but due the harsh climate, I've had to make some changes. All of Fantasyland and Tomorrowland would be indoors. The only issue I find with having the lands indoors is that while it may work during the colder part of the year (which is nearly half of the year), the rest of the year can get pretty warm, and the sunshine would be nice to see since we don't see if often around these parts.

 

[kcnole]

The glass roof at Tokyo is the only thing about that park that I despise. It totally ruins the feel of Main Street. I much prefer the idea of the arcades that you used in Paris to putting a roof over Main Street.

 

[kcnole]

Have entire lands being "indoors" ever been talked about at WDI? I've sketched out three parks for a location in New England, but due the harsh climate, I've had to make some changes. All of Fantasyland and Tomorrowland would be indoors. The only issue I find with having the lands indoors is that while it may work during the colder part of the year (which is nearly half of the year), the rest of the year can get pretty warm, and the sunshine would be nice to see since we don't see if often around these parts.

I think that the best way to deal with this is how Futureworld handled it. While the land of Futureworld is all outside, many of the pavilions functioned like indoor lands. So if its raining you can just duck inside a pavilion and spend a few hours there exploring everything. To me that's the perfect solution when implemented properly. You still get the wonderful sun which is so necessary to me, but you also get the opportunity to get out of the elements to enjoy the main attractions without having to wait in long lines outside.

 

[Buried20KLeague]

The glass roof at Tokyo is the only thing about that park that I despise. It totally ruins the feel of Main Street. I much prefer the idea of the arcades that you used in Paris to putting a roof over Main Street.

Totally agree. When you're standing on Tokyo's Main Street, you can see the supports for the glass roof going down directly behind the facades. It was easy to see there really wasn't depth to the buildings. Messed with the forced perspective, too.

Not to mention just the overall goofiness of the idea.

 

[EPCOT Explorer]

Have entire lands being "indoors" ever been talked about at WDI? I've sketched out three parks for a location in New England, but due the harsh climate, I've had to make some changes. All of Fantasyland and Tomorrowland would be indoors. The only issue I find with having the lands indoors is that while it may work during the colder part of the year (which is nearly half of the year), the rest of the year can get pretty warm, and the sunshine would be nice to see since we don't see if often around these parts.

I've always thought of FW's pavilions being like indoor "minilands". Much like kcnole said. :lol:

 

[Esdeebee]

First off, I'm so glad you decided to post here, welcome! 152 pages is quite a feat. To your question, "Disney's America" was not a park I worked on, but as I understand it was not destined to be indoors either. I proposed a "Walt Disney's America" concept for the location now known as DCA, but that was my first week at the company and it never went anywhere. (So much for the 15 story crystal Statue of Liberty!)

There have been so many location based and or resort proposals over the years for different cities. I'm not familiar with the St. Louis one. Sorry, striking out on your questions.

Disney Quest and another more "adult" project I was involved in were to be staged indoors. Not easy to pull off. The challenges with indoor projects is that they tend to be expensive as they cover all the walkways that end up being climate controlled, so each square foot carries a value and that takes away form what you have to do the attractions. So it gets minimized. Circulation either up and down or around your attractions becomes an issue and orienting the guest to that can be challenging. The new "Ferrari World" Attraction in the Middle East is under a mega roof and that should be interesting. I'm prejudiced against indoor projects only that acoustically they can tend to be harsh. I was just in a new indoor mall this weekend that was an acoustic nightmare and I could not wait to get out. TDL's Main Street-ish "World Bazaar" is under a glass roof and it compromises it's feel to a degree. there is this cavernous reverb and the area music echoes through it. So when we did DLP MSUSA (can get very cold and wet) we did East and West "Arcades" which allows you to be warm and cozy in gaslit passages behind each block of shops, while still retaining the open shared experience that is Main Street as in the other parks. I think it does both well. Caesar's Palace Forum Shops in Las Vegas do a pretty nice job of creating an indoor/outdoor feel and so it can be done. You do have light control and the ability to do sets that don't have to endure the weather, which can be a big plus depending on the theme.

I hope this begins to answer your questions about designing for indoor use.

Thank you so much for the response! The article in D23 mentioned that when they were designing the World Bazaar area of TDL, they broke out the plans for the St. Louis park. According to the D23 article, it would have been a one square block, 4 story building that housed the attractions. The little bit of a schematic they posted was intriguing. (The timing of this work would have been in the 60's I assume, prior to even making the final decision on "the Florida Project" - one story is that Walt was insulted by August Busch's voiced opinion that you'd have to be crazy to build something in St. Louis and not sell beer at it...and after that Walt backed off of this - but apparently it probably wasn't going to be a "go" anyway by then...)

I realized that you hadn't necessarily worked on Disney's America but thought it must have been at least in part planned during your tenure (maybe before though?) with WDI. I was thinking about snow removal and such - in Chicago they have "heated" sidewalks around the U of I medical campus, or so I was told when I was going to school there - and I thought this would be one solution to keep the sidewalks snow and ice-free during snowstorms.

Was also thinking about ride systems - almost certainly they'd all have to be enclosed, or you'd have to have rides that didn't operate year-round. Do you do tiered pricing - winter admission and summer admission - in something like this?

I was thinking about Caesar's mall in Vegas when I was thinking about "indoor". Their problem of course is heat, not cold. But they do a very beautiful job of making the space interesting, and I'm sure they pay for it with the rents from some of those upscale type stores! :animwink:

I have to look at the pictures of your Arcades. I always think of an "arcade" as just a big room to house a bunch of games!

I think this is sort of an interesting thought experiment if nothing else. Doesn't matter if it's Disney or someone else. I'd love to see something like this in the north. We used to have a mall/amusement park called "Old Chicago" not far from my house, and it was fun in the middle of winter to go on log flumes and coasters with inversions, but the place didn't make it long term. Cool idea though.

Thank you for the responses! As I said, I have LOVED reading your thoughts on the myriad of issues you've dealt with in this thread!:animwink:

 

[BigThunderMatt]

It snows in Tokyo and gets very cold like Paris. Both parks have their extremes. I was not at WDI when TDL park was built. I can address DLP, and it was destined to have the glass roof just like TDL. Tony Baxter did not like the acoustics or the shadows cast from the glass roof (I agree) and in Summer, when most of the guests are there it's not nearly as attractive. They want the raw sunshine and sky. We opted for the arcades instead as you can have both and operations liked the extra passageway for parade blowoff, etc. Overall the Arcades have gotten good guest reviews and work well functionally. I see your point about similar weather.

Thanks for the info. I personally think the arcades are a great idea. DLP definitely has a lot of cool design aspects to it that a lot of the other parks lack. It's weird that it took so long for DLP to really gain the acclaim that it has for such things when the park's had them since day one. Out of curiosity, I can understand the location choice because of its proximity to Paris, but at the same time do you know if they ever looked at other locations with a more Mediterranean climate such as Nice in the south of France?

 

[Esdeebee]

Here's video of the liberty arcade so you see what we did.

http://www.dlrpmagic.com/video/attractions/liberty-arcade/

Beautiful detail! This is not open to the sky, is it? Seems like a great idea that should have been used more in Disney!

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Beautiful detail! This is not open to the sky, is it? Seems like a great idea that should have been used more in Disney!

No it is not, it cost less to put it all under one roof, The skylights are made up of stained glass and frosted plex but enclosed in a light box that changes throughout the day. I remember going up there and dumping leaves on the panes so it looked more real.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Have entire lands being "indoors" ever been talked about at WDI? I've sketched out three parks for a location in New England, but due the harsh climate, I've had to make some changes. All of Fantasyland and Tomorrowland would be indoors. The only issue I find with having the lands indoors is that while it may work during the colder part of the year (which is nearly half of the year), the rest of the year can get pretty warm, and the sunshine would be nice to see since we don't see if often around these parts.

Believe it or not, HKDL was originally intended to be a small half day Fantasyland of a park under a dome.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Thanks for the info. I personally think the arcades are a great idea. DLP definitely has a lot of cool design aspects to it that a lot of the other parks lack. It's weird that it took so long for DLP to really gain the acclaim that it has for such things when the park's had them since day one. Out of curiosity, I can understand the location choice because of its proximity to Paris, but at the same time do you know if they ever looked at other locations with a more Mediterranean climate such as Nice in the south of France?

Lots of sites were considered, especially a warmer climate in Spain. the reason paris was chosen is that it is the literal crossroads of Europe for tourists. They usually cross through paris en route East or West and spend a night there. Disney hoped to divert or extend the stay as it was on their way to someplace else.

 

[Esdeebee]

I think that the best way to deal with this is how Futureworld handled it. While the land of Futureworld is all outside, many of the pavilions functioned like indoor lands. So if its raining you can just duck inside a pavilion and spend a few hours there exploring everything. To me that's the perfect solution when implemented properly. You still get the wonderful sun which is so necessary to me, but you also get the opportunity to get out of the elements to enjoy the main attractions without having to wait in long lines outside.

I think you're right. Even the way that World Showcase handles it. Epcot is really the only Disney park down there that would work in a colder climate, it seems to me. Even Animal Kingdom would simply become a "Zoo" if placed in a colder climate...a zoo with a couple of nice shows, perhaps, but not much else in terms of attractions...

 

[Thurp]

If I remember correctly, another developer decided to take the site that Disney was considering in Spain and built another theme park called "Porta Ventura" (Port Adventure.) I've been told that it was doing better than the then called EuroDisney.

I doubt that this is the case anymore. I think it was purchased by Warner Brother or something similar several years later. I'm not sure how it's doing now when compared with DLP.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

If I remember correctly, another developer decided to take the site that Disney was considering in Spain and built another theme park called "Porta Ventura" (Port Adventure.) I've been told that it was doing better than the then called EuroDisney.

I doubt that this is the case anymore. I think it was purchased by Warner Brother or something similar several years later. I'm not sure how it's doing now when compared with DLP.

Since the day it opened, DLP has been far and away the number one tourist attraction in all of Europe. Eiffel tower does a bit over 1m, DLP does over 10. when it comes to profit however, DLP has not been able to overcome it's financial hurdles that were set before it.

 

[_Scar]

That's sad.

I'm guessing WDS only worsened DLP's financial situation?

 

[Eddie Sotto]

That's sad.

I'm guessing WDS only worsened DLP's financial situation?

Not sure , they were profitible last year for a while. Generally speaking it would aggravate the situation,yes.

 

[_Scar]

Not sure , they were profitible last year for a while. Generally speaking it would aggravate the situation,yes.

Yea... it's getting better though over time. I think their Toon Studio is pretty nice with Crush and Cars side by side.

I've heard many rumors the new anniverary expansion for DLRP is either Splash for DLP or Ratatouille E-ticket for WDS. Which one would you choose?

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Yea... it's getting better though over time. I think their Toon Studio is pretty nice with Crush and Cars side by side.

I've heard many rumors the new anniverary expansion for DLRP is either Splash for DLP or Ratatouille E-ticket for WDS. Which one would you choose?

Rat for the Studios. Splash seems too wet for that climate.

 

[_Scar]

Rat for the Studios. Splash seems too wet for that climate.

:sohappy:

Me too.

I've always wondered why WDI has not used the concept of Gusteau's (the main restaurant in Ratatouille) as a theme park restaurant.

You can even make the sign talk and interact with guests passing by like in the movie.

Wishful thinking ... :lol: maybe one day at Pixar Place :shrug: