Eddie Sotto's take on the current state of the parks (Part II)

[darthspielberg]

Movie theaters are criminal for what they charge and I resent my family loading up on all that stuff. Then there are all the confusing combo/package deals and upsells to larger sizes they try and sell you that eat up time at the counter and slow down the line. Frustrating. You just want to get into the theater. In the end, all of that gouging at the movies will hurt them as the home theater gets better.

I worked at a Regal for a time, and boy did they love their combos. We were forced to offer and suggest combos despite the fact that the combos at Regal save you zero money. Every combo is the same price as if you bought the items separately. Even McDonalds saves you some money if you get a combo...but not Regal. I found out before I left that horrid company that the reason they were so anxious to get us to sell was that if the theater hit a certain threshold of combos sold, the managers got Bonuses. Isn't that just stupid as hell?

I think Disney is pretty reasonable for food and drink compared to movie theaters. When I bought a bottle of water last time I was down there I was shocked when it didn't cost me 3.00$ or more. Parking has never been an issue for me personally, but 15 is lower than some venues, although it's still a chunk of change.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Atmospheric Perspective.

I had a very fun lunch yesterday with William Creber, a 20th Century Fox Production Designer who, beyond the many features he has done, has also overseen the design of the many "Hollywood Blvd" and New York Streets for the Disney "Studio" themed parks. His specialty is "forced perspective", (making the building appear taller or longer by shrinking different elements optically) and we discussed that at length.

One term he used that I've neglected to mention is "atmospheric perspective". The old masters used to create a soft haze or lighten the color of distant elements in their paintings to give the illusion of distance. we notice the same lack of color saturation in distant hills or skylines don't we? We discussed how the Castle at DL was very reduced in the upper areas and that it's color scheme being soft contributed to the effect, and he felt that by enhancing the colors it actually can work against that illusion of height and distance depending on how severe it is. I've attached three Castle images, one from 1957 DL. and the other more recent and one of the same design in Hong Kong (favors the original color scheme). There is the early 60's image of the Castle appearing beyond Main Street, which I think sells the soft scheme and it's intent to appear more distant (Daveland). Also attached a classical painting from the british master Turner, so you can compare the softness and the palette of color. Interesting to look at the upper tower as the windows are small but are intended to seem full size.

Which scheme works best? Does it even matter?

 

[flynnibus]

One term he used that I've neglected to mention is "atmospheric perspective". The old masters used to create a soft haze or lighten the color of distant elements in their paintings to give the illusion of distance. we notice the same lack of color saturation in distant hills or skylines don't we?

That is heavily used in the rockwork at Carsland.. the peaks are all that greyish tint to them to set them back

 

[Eddie Sotto]

That is heavily used in the rockwork at Carsland.. the peaks are all that greyish tint to them to set them back

Good example. I brought it up because it's not discussed that much and some of you may not be aware of it.

 

[flynnibus]

It's the subtle things that fool the brain the most!

I think it ties into the earlier posts about 'too much theme', etc. Too often people focus in on the 'big in your face' stuff that SCREAMS time/place/style instead of simply SUGGESTING and doing it with 100% coverage/immersion.

It's like.. what props, scents, lighting, etc would you set in a cabin.. are you trying to suggest the idea of a lived in home.. or a indian shootout?

That's why I don't believe these posters of 'story is dead' 'story is artificial', etc that is so popular in trying to bring down the company's work these days. (yes, they promote that angle all too hard, but its not worthless). In all the settings, you need to have a vision of what you are trying to project the space to be. Those need to intertwine in a compatible way to suspend disbelief.

That is the art.. not simply going to an antique store and loading the place up with bits from the time period.

Those subtle bits.. the supporting 'cast'.. the environmentals.. the lighting.. the sounds, the sound intensity.. the colors.. all these things whose purpose is to make you believe or read into something, even subconsciously.. is what differentiates those that just copy from the artists. Because there isn't a cookie cutter for this - it's about methods and applying them to the task.

I wish more fans would study the art - rather than the tools used by the artists!

 

[StageFrenzy]

All the crowns, gizmos and widgets adorning the new pic also make it look significantly smaller.

 

[Cosmic Commando]

That is heavily used in the rockwork at Carsland.. the peaks are all that greyish tint to them to set them back

Yeah, I think they really nailed the "atmospheric perspective" with Carsland. I've noticed it for a while now, but I never knew what to call it!

 

[Eddie Sotto]

It's the subtle things that fool the brain the most!

I think it ties into the earlier posts about 'too much theme', etc. Too often people focus in on the 'big in your face' stuff that SCREAMS time/place/style instead of simply SUGGESTING and doing it with 100% coverage/immersion.

It's like.. what props, scents, lighting, etc would you set in a cabin.. are you trying to suggest the idea of a lived in home.. or a indian shootout?

That's why I don't believe these posters of 'story is dead' 'story is artificial', etc that is so popular in trying to bring down the company's work these days. (yes, they promote that angle all too hard, but its not worthless). In all the settings, you need to have a vision of what you are trying to project the space to be. Those need to intertwine in a compatible way to suspend disbelief.

That is the art.. not simply going to an antique store and loading the place up with bits from the time period.

Those subtle bits.. the supporting 'cast'.. the environmentals.. the lighting.. the sounds, the sound intensity.. the colors.. all these things whose purpose is to make you believe or read into something, even subconsciously.. is what differentiates those that just copy from the artists. Because there isn't a cookie cutter for this - it's about methods and applying them to the task.

I wish more fans would study the art - rather than the tools used by the artists!

One of the better examples of your point is the lobby of the Tower of Terror at WDW. The set decoration is a "snapshot" of the story. The space seems abandoned mid sentence. You may notice clothing, newspapers, etc, but they do not dominate the space, just enhance it. It foreshadows the rest of the show very well without beating you over the head. It's informed by the story and implies what happens rather than being a billboard. Like watching a movie the second time, the props only stand out to you once you know the rest. It also sets up the melancholy emotional tone of the show well and that's what most people get out of it.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Carsland update

There are some images in the micechat update of the DCA Preview Center featuring Carsland. Looks very fun and interesting. There are things not in the movies that are going to be in the land and they show us the layouts. Story beyond the story. Even some preliminary challenges they faced in getting it all to work. Sounds fun.

http://micechat.com/blogs/dateline-...and-buena-vista-details-matterhorn-paint.html

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Western River Article

I was checking out the 626 article on the history of the infamous Western River Expedition Attraction.

http://micechat.com/blogs/the-626/3129-disneys-western-river-expedition-ultimate-ride-never.html

Known as the great unbuilt Marc Davis attraction of WDW. Tony hosts a video recreation of the ride which is really interesting, although you do get the impression that WRE borrows a lot from Pirates formatically. It seems to me that so many things are borrowed from Marc's own past projects and repeated that I left wondering you would be impressed or left comparing the two rides.

Waterfall at the end, Musical theme song, Caverns at the beginning, lots of drunk people shooting, borrowed gags from Nature's Wonderland. Then there are Abstract background sets that don't really "transport" you anywhere, but, by the look of the model are treated like those found in "World of Motion" or "America Sings". Not the escape that you get in POTC. I think the best elements have been used elsewhere so we did get some of Marc's best gags anyway. We even got BTM as a result. Lots to be happy about and I'm not entirely sure that if it had been built, it would not at times feel like a sequel.

 

[flynnibus]

I never felt the fascination for WRE...

I think people go googly over it simply based on the scale of the whole thing.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

I never felt the fascination for WRE...

I think people go googly over it simply based on the scale of the whole thing.

From a scale perspective it was all encompassing. Wow. Very impressive. As a kid I had a postcard rendering of it and wished it would be there for the opening. We had seen them promote it at the Preview Center in January 1971.Very depressing that it wasn't there with the park.

Here's that Post Card with the mega rendering. I was in major froth mode over the "Knott's Calico Mine Ride on Crack" aspects to it. It didn't look cute either.

http://thmb.inkfrog.com/thumbn/jtrons/001_101.jpg=450

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Famous Letterheads.

Off topic for sure, but really interesting. I'd love to collect these. You may have some of them!

http://www.retronaut.co/2012/03/famous-letterheads-1900-1997/

 

[ChrisFL]

Off topic for sure, but really interesting. I'd love to collect these. You may have some of them!

http://www.retronaut.co/2012/03/famous-letterheads-1900-1997/

Hmm, I figured anything creative isn't actually off topic to an imagineer.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Hmm, I figured anything creative isn't actually off topic to an imagineer.

That's how I feel! It's funny how things that are off topic inform the next breakthrough. Walt Disney was a film maker but he applied his experience to Amusement Parks, how off topic was that at the time?

 

[Pixiedustmaker]

WRE-style E-ticket still a good idea

I was checking out the 626 article on the history of the infamous Western River Expedition Attraction.

http://micechat.com/blogs/the-626/3129-disneys-western-river-expedition-ultimate-ride-never.html

Known as the great unbuilt Marc Davis attraction of WDW. Tony hosts a video recreation of the ride which is really interesting, although you do get the impression that WRE borrows a lot from Pirates formatically. It seems to me that so many things are borrowed from Marc's own past projects and repeated that I left wondering you would be impressed or left comparing the two rides.

Waterfall at the end, Musical theme song, Caverns at the beginning, lots of drunk people shooting, borrowed gags from Nature's Wonderland. Then there are Abstract background sets that don't really "transport" you anywhere, but, by the look of the model are treated like those found in "World of Motion" or "America Sings". Not the escape that you get in POTC. I think the best elements have been used elsewhere so we did get some of Marc's best gags anyway. We even got BTM as a result. Lots to be happy about and I'm not entirely sure that if it had been built, it would not at times feel like a sequel.

I think that Western River Expedition would work, especially in Disneyland, for the following reasons.

1. Frontierland has a great ride, BMTRR, which was borrowed from WRE and expanded upon by Tony Baxter. While BMTRR has a lot of great thematic elements, the story element is unknown to most guests, meaning that the thrill ride aspect is much more prominent. Frontierland would be more complete with a ride like Pirates and the Haunted Mansion where a story (albeit a loose narrative) is told. BMTRR hints at a haunted mountain, a mine train ride gone wrong, so adding a relatively slow moving river ride would help tie the land together.

2. Without a doubt, WRE is derivative in terms of ride vehicle and staging, when compared to Pirates. However, Small World uses a similar ride system and staging of scenes in a large show building, yet is obviously a much different ride and attracts a different set of loyal fans. Though the boat ride system could be easily updated.

The boat system used in Pirates was created in the 1960s, with modern technology, and a desire for innovation, it could be improved upon, such as, building a boat run where the boat goes down more waterfalls, perhaps some small and others not so subtle, to create the illusion of rafting down a real river. Or using water cannons to tilt the boat from side to side, creating the illusion of rafting down a raging river. Perhaps even an outside and inside segment could be added.

3. Disneyland lost Country Bear Jamboree, America Sings . . . there aren’t many rides where you can setback and experience audioanimatronic characters anymore. Adding WRE to Disneyland would add a ride with a bit of the show element, which I think is sorely missing in Disneyland.

4. Like Pirates, the old western theme really never is dead, movie like True Grit are being remade and the Lone Ranger movie is on the horizon. There is something mystical about the Old West, that is timeless and exciting, and if done well, I don’t think that a WRE boat ride would go out of style.

Here is one idea from a fan http://voices.yahoo.com/western-river-expedition-may-coming-6524638.html . . . ;-)

Anyway, I really hope that WRE is looked at again and that a similar E-ticket is added to Disneyland! Yes, a WRE-style boat would be a sequel to Pirates, but the cinematic sequels to Pirates weren’t too shabby, and a WRE-style boat ride could perhaps inspire films in the future, and would be a good investment for the mouse house.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

I think that Western River Expedition would work, especially in Disneyland, for the following reasons.

1. Frontierland has a great ride, BMTRR, which was borrowed from WRE and expanded upon by Tony Baxter. While BMTRR has a lot of great thematic elements, the story element is unknown to most guests, meaning that the thrill ride aspect is much more prominent. Frontierland would be more complete with a ride like Pirates and the Haunted Mansion where a story (albeit a loose narrative) is told. BMTRR hints at a haunted mountain, a mine train ride gone wrong, so adding a relatively slow moving river ride would help tie the land together.

2. Without a doubt, WRE is derivative in terms of ride vehicle and staging, when compared to Pirates. However, Small World uses a similar ride system and staging of scenes in a large show building, yet is obviously a much different ride and attracts a different set of loyal fans. Though the boat ride system could be easily updated.

The boat system used in Pirates was created in the 1960s, with modern technology, and a desire for innovation, it could be improved upon, such as, building a boat run where the boat goes down more waterfalls, perhaps some small and others not so subtle, to create the illusion of rafting down a real river. Or using water cannons to tilt the boat from side to side, creating the illusion of rafting down a raging river. Perhaps even an outside and inside segment could be added.

3. Disneyland lost Country Bear Jamboree, America Sings . . . there aren’t many rides where you can setback and experience audioanimatronic characters anymore. Adding WRE to Disneyland would add a ride with a bit of the show element, which I think is sorely missing in Disneyland.

4. Like Pirates, the old western theme really never is dead, movie like True Grit are being remade and the Lone Ranger movie is on the horizon. There is something mystical about the Old West, that is timeless and exciting, and if done well, I don’t think that a WRE boat ride would go out of style.

Here is one idea from a fan http://voices.yahoo.com/western-river-expedition-may-coming-6524638.html . . . ;-)

Anyway, I really hope that WRE is looked at again and that a similar E-ticket is added to Disneyland! Yes, a WRE-style boat would be a sequel to Pirates, but the cinematic sequels to Pirates weren’t too shabby, and a WRE-style boat ride could perhaps inspire films in the future, and would be a good investment for the mouse house.

Maybe they are listening and you will get your wish.

 

[KevinYee]

What about pet projects and the ego issues that go with it?

Marc Davis championed WRE, while Tony Baxter championed Big Thunder. In essence, Tony won. Would Tony now want to back WRE in Disneyland?

I seem to recall also that Marc and Tony held different beliefs about rides. Marc was more about atmosphere and you-are-there; Tony was more about story and a clearly understood narrative.

The changes to Haunted Mansion and Pirates over the years have effectively removed the Davis-era mentality (unconnected vignettes) and made those same scenes now strung together with actual meaning and story.

 

[trs518]

Eddie,

I saw this today and thought you might be interested, as you mentioned several times how you sketch out ideas on a tablet.

http://www.gadgetbox.msnbc.msn.com/...ive-stylus-turns-ipads-drawing-tablets-333140

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Eddie,

I saw this today and thought you might be interested, as you mentioned several times how you sketch out ideas on a tablet.

http://www.gadgetbox.msnbc.msn.com/...ive-stylus-turns-ipads-drawing-tablets-333140

You know me TOO well. I am interested in this and thanks for the tip. I will now fully investigate! I have an ASUS but would love to make my iPad more sketch friendly.