Eddie Sotto's take on the current state of the parks (Part II)

[Eddie Sotto]

Aren't the old mining equipment artifacts used in Big Thunder Mountain Railroad genuine antiques? Since this ride opened in 1980 at Walt Disney World, it would seem that the Imaginers have been using authentic, as well as replicas in their presentations for a very long time.

I am curious as to the cost differential in fabricating an object from scratch, versus buying the authentic piece. Especially in an attraction like Expedition Everest - Legend of the Forbidden Mountain. I'm not ready to fire Joe Rohde yet. At least not until I see the bar tab that he put on his expense account while in Nepal.

I think it is usually cheaper to buy something that exists, vintage or not than make it. Yes, BTMRr is filled with real antiques, especially the DLP version. In the case of Asian/Indian carved artifacts, you'd be nuts to make that custom here or through the Disney process of design and build, as it is much cheaper to buy it abroad given all the labor and carving involved. I defend the designer going out there and directing the propping effort as I'd do the same thing. Joe happens to be an expert in this subject and knows what historically and culturally works for the show, as he has travelled this part of the world on his own and it is his personal passion. I'm sure his bar tab in that part of the world can't be worse than mine in NYC when they sent me to research the 1920's Main Street for DLP..

 

[KevinYee]

The queue isn't really the "first act" in the story anymore. Since FASTPASS has been incorporated into new rides from the design onward, the queue no longer will be seen by everybody. This has been true starting around 2002 perhaps? Anything built immediatley after the 1999 introduction, including DCA, would have been designed already.

These days, the queue is used more as an enhanced waiting room rather than a line that unfolds slowly. Hence the move toward a real waiting area, as Dueling Dumbos will have, makes sense. The use of a lot of props will make visitors bored if the props don't do anything, so I'm guessing we'll see more interactivity. The cell phone culture and today's tolerance for simply 'waiting' play a role too. The future, whether we like it or not, is probably going to be some variation on the Kim Possible concept.

What would make ME excited is if future designers said to heck with it, and made the interactive queue part of the story after all. Didn't see the queue because you used XPass or FastPass? Stinks to be you. Maybe you should get in line again. If the story elements are Easter-eggy enough, people will get in line anyway.

I wouldn't skip the Tokyo Tower of Terror (Shiriki Utundu) story elements if you offered me a straight line to the elevator!

 

[HMF]

The queue isn't really the "first act" in the story anymore. Since FASTPASS has been incorporated into new rides from the design onward, the queue no longer will be seen by everybody. This has been true starting around 2002 perhaps? Anything built immediatley after the 1999 introduction, including DCA, would have been designed already.

There are some attractions mostly thrill rides for which fastpass works wonders, then there are others (Dark Rides , Pirates of the Caribbean etc.) that immerse you in a world and the queue is an integral part of the experience. A far as I am concerned the new intearctive queues are far more dangerous to the attraction experience than fastpass.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

The queue isn't really the "first act" in the story anymore. Since FASTPASS has been incorporated into new rides from the design onward, the queue no longer will be seen by everybody. This has been true starting around 2002 perhaps? Anything built immediatley after the 1999 introduction, including DCA, would have been designed already.

These days, the queue is used more as an enhanced waiting room rather than a line that unfolds slowly. Hence the move toward a real waiting area, as Dueling Dumbos will have, makes sense. The use of a lot of props will make visitors bored if the props don't do anything, so I'm guessing we'll see more interactivity. The cell phone culture and today's tolerance for simply 'waiting' play a role too. The future, whether we like it or not, is probably going to be some variation on the Kim Possible concept.

What would make ME excited is if future designers said to heck with it, and made the interactive queue part of the story after all. Didn't see the queue because you used XPass or FastPass? Stinks to be you. Maybe you should get in line again. If the story elements are Easter-eggy enough, people will get in line anyway.

I wouldn't skip the Tokyo Tower of Terror (Shiriki Utundu) story elements if you offered me a straight line to the elevator!

The HM is that way in that you accept the stretching room and hallways as the show because it is pulsed, and not just the queue to the Doombuggies. I think they will design with that in mind now as these kinds of queues are becoming proven.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

There are some attractions mostly thrill rides for which fastpass works wonders, then there are others (Dark Rides , Pirates of the Caribbean etc.) that immerse you in a world and the queue is an integral part of the experience. A far as I am concerned the new intearctive queues are far more dangerous to the attraction experience than fastpass.

Tell us more.

 

[Alektronic]

I used to imagine what it would like to be an Imagineer. Back in '92, I think it was, there was a contest for CMs where we could submit an idea for a new attraction, with the idea that the winner's idea would be made into reality. I submitted an idea for a rollercoaster based on Aladdin called "The Cave of Wonders." I was quite proud of it at the time, as I recall. I imagine it was pretty silly, but I used to love thinking about it being built someday. Years later, when I tried out the VR Aladdin stuff at DisneyQuest, I realized that real talent could make so much more of an idea than I could. I eventually became what I am now, which is the Director of Quality Assurance for a software company in Pennsylvania. I don't design much, but I do get to tell people what they are doing wrong, which is perfect for me.

I remember that contest, in fact, I entered also and my idea was about Aladdin also, it was a Flying Carpet ride based on the same ride system as Peter Pan. As I remember it, if they used your idea then they would offer you a job in WDI. Then later, I saw the Aladdin VR prototype at Innoventions and I thought I was close but close enough.

Then they used to have the "The I Got an Idea" program where cast members could submit their ideas and suggestions for new ideas, money saving ideas, energy saving ideas, or just more efficient operation ideas. And then get rewarded if they used your idea. But that was way back when they actually appreciated CM input and creative ideas.

 

[HMF]

Tell us more.

In the case of the Haunted Mansion
*It's loud
*It completely destroys the buildup to the ride, It shows that the ghosts are friendly before that is supposed to be revealed. Throughout the first half of the ride you are supposed to feel "did I just see that? with the new queue you experience some obvious ghostly manifestations prematurely.
*It is loud and obnoxious. The idea is as you enter the Mansion you feel a dark sense of foreboding. With the new queue you are basically interacting and playing with friendly ghosts in what is basically a slightly better designed McDonalds playground.
HBG2's blog did a better job of explaining it
http://longforgottenhauntedmansion.blogspot.com/2011/05/decadence.html
I don't necessarily agree with everything he says but it makes it's point.
The Interactive queue idea MIGHT work for some less carefully structured attractions that does not have to follow such a set of ground rules set by the original Imagineers but it's implementation for the Haunted Mansion is fundamentally wrong.

 

[njDizFan]

I am a queue fan. It gives the ride a life of it's own. It prepares the story, unravels the plot and immerses you in the attraction. A great queue can even make up for a so-so attraction( i.e KRR).

But going even farther into this mindset, think of The Olde World Antiques in WDW. Jack Olsen was given a budget of a million dollars annual and the store had sales in the 100K range. I know it is a huge disparity but the enhancement of the theming of the land was amazing. Can you imagine no Mickey merchandice being allowed to be sold in ALand,Fland, or Liberty Sqaure?

Great article here..with a little quip about you Kevin.


http://passport2dreams.blogspot.com/2010/08/snapshot-olde-world-antiques.html

 

[ChrisFL]

Then they used to have the "The I Got an Idea" program where cast members could submit their ideas and suggestions for new ideas, money saving ideas, energy saving ideas, or just more efficient operation ideas. And then get rewarded if they used your idea. But that was way back when they actually appreciated CM input and creative ideas.

They still have a Disney inventor program for CM's, but if Disney uses it, they give you max of $1,000 and they take all of the credit.

 

[HMF]

I am a queue fan. It gives the ride a life of it's own. It prepares the story, unravels the plot and immerses you in the attraction. A great queue can even make up for a so-so attraction( i.e KRR).

The best Attractions don't have stories or plots, They immerse you in an experience that you can't find anywhere else. Walt and Marc Davis championed this approach.Putting guests into immersive environments is much more important than just telling guests a story. IMHO

 

[njDizFan]

The best Attractions don't have stories or plots, They immerse you in an experience that you can't find anywhere else. Walt and Marc Davis championed this approach.Putting guests into immersive environments is much more important than just telling guests a story. IMHO

I agree, and if I contradict my previous statement so be it. I don't neccesarily believe the themeing has to part of story but part of the immersion. For example HM and PotC, both great queues but not exactly "telling a story" (except for fan made backstory).

 

[CBOMB]

Yes, good point about BTMRR. Those antiques are more targeted (they aren't everywhere) but more importantly they 'idealize' and 'romanticize'.

The Everest artifacts do the opposite - they try to convince you it's real and NOT a simulation.

Big Thunder done in the Everest style would have stinky horses and ________ everywhere. Exactly what 1955 frontierland had, in fact, except that the smell was the only authentic part back then. In Walt's day, there seemed to always be an element of artifice, if only to reassure the audience that it will all be all right.

I look at Everest as a huge artifice. It's a roller coaster inside a fabricated mountain containing a fabricated mythical beast. Personally I believe the artifacts were merely used as a prop to enhance the storyline. I guess you could say to add a touch of realism to the setting of the attraction.

You are certainly much more astute than I am Kevin when it comes to all things concerning Walt Disney World. I just think that Joe Rohde, and his team approached the attraction in the only way they could.

 

[CBOMB]

Well, well ... look what the possum dragged in. Nice to see ya back oldtimer and Merry Christmas.:xmas:

BTMRR does indeed feature old artifacts. I'm almost 100% positive that all four versions have real props.

As to the Joe Rohde comment, I tend to read a lot of comments taking shots at him for the trips he took to Asia and the props he acquired. WDI has been doing that for a long time ... research trips go all the way back to Old Dead Guy Walt's days.

Now, whether they got their money's worth from JR's roadtrips is certainly open to debate.

A very Merry Christmas to you my good friend. I hope Mickey doesn't sneak in and leave a lump of coal in your stocking again this year.:xmas:

We could argue about the cost of that trip to Nepal, and probably never reach a consensus in this forum. My feeling is, that's a pretty impressive queue, and I consider the queue to be a major part of any well done attraction. A Pineapple Dole Whip cost $3.18. Is it worth it? To me it is, but not to you.

 

[CBOMB]

I think it is usually cheaper to buy something that exists, vintage or not than make it. Yes, BTMRr is filled with real antiques, especially the DLP version. In the case of Asian/Indian carved artifacts, you'd be nuts to make that custom here or through the Disney process of design and build, as it is much cheaper to buy it abroad given all the labor and carving involved. I defend the designer going out there and directing the propping effort as I'd do the same thing. Joe happens to be an expert in this subject and knows what historically and culturally works for the show, as he has travelled this part of the world on his own and it is his personal passion. I'm sure his bar tab in that part of the world can't be worse than mine in NYC when they sent me to research the 1920's Main Street for DLP..

This leads me to another question Eddie that WDW1974 brought up. You've probably already been asked this a dozen times already. So feel free to pass up on an answer if you get bored with the same question.

When doing research for a project do you feel it is necessary to make those trips like Joe Rohde did to Nepal for Everest, and like you did to NY when designing the layout for the Main Street in Disneyland Paris. Do you feel it is a must to have a hands on, 3-D experience by actually visiting a site. There are certainly enough books, and pictures, and film around to cover just about every place on the planet. I realize that artistic inspiration is also involved, but does it justify the cost or do you feel it is a necessity. Especially when it is a major project. Is that just considered the cost of doing business.

 

[WDW1974]

Queues, when done right (and, yes, I'd put EE in this much like PoC or ToT etc), help set the mood ... the tone of the attraction.

But a great queue like KRR doesn't change an attraction that stinks.

I also would question the whole interactive deal because if you just watch guests at WDW at Pooh and Mansion, you'll see the vast majority of adults aren't interested beyond touching something (no jokes) and while the kids are occupied, they are at a cost (I had to leave the Pooh queue on my last visit because the noise was actually hurting my ears).

I think it's telling that all this NEXT GEN money is being blow...I mean spent at WDW. I absolutely don't see these type of queues winding up in Anaheim or the international resorts. Sure, you may see some more interactive elements. But you won't have the loud, garrish, in your face queues that are being forced on guests in O-Town.

 

[WDW1974]

I am a queue fan. It gives the ride a life of it's own. It prepares the story, unravels the plot and immerses you in the attraction. A great queue can even make up for a so-so attraction( i.e KRR).

I wouldn't go that far, myself. I think KRR is one of the worst three WDW attractions by a long run. Great queue. Short soaking off-the-shelf raft ride with a muddled (has to be with very short ride time) burning the forests is bad message (which it is, usually but not always!)

But going even farther into this mindset, think of The Olde World Antiques in WDW. Jack Olsen was given a budget of a million dollars annual and the store had sales in the 100K range. I know it is a huge disparity but the enhancement of the theming of the land was amazing. Can you imagine no Mickey merchandice being allowed to be sold in ALand,Fland, or Liberty Sqaure?

I don't have to, I lived it. ... Yes, the MK actually had real themed lands at one time.

It absoluely doesn't now, which might be an interesting discussion topic for this particular thread.

The Disney BRAND and toons do not equal storytelling, placemaking and immersive theming. :drevil::xmas:

 

[CBOMB]

The queue isn't really the "first act" in the story anymore. Since FASTPASS has been incorporated into new rides from the design onward, the queue no longer will be seen by everybody. This has been true starting around 2002 perhaps? Anything built immediatley after the 1999 introduction, including DCA, would have been designed already.

These days, the queue is used more as an enhanced waiting room rather than a line that unfolds slowly. Hence the move toward a real waiting area, as Dueling Dumbos will have, makes sense. The use of a lot of props will make visitors bored if the props don't do anything, so I'm guessing we'll see more interactivity. The cell phone culture and today's tolerance for simply 'waiting' play a role too. The future, whether we like it or not, is probably going to be some variation on the Kim Possible concept.

What would make ME excited is if future designers said to heck with it, and made the interactive queue part of the story after all. Didn't see the queue because you used XPass or FastPass? Stinks to be you. Maybe you should get in line again. If the story elements are Easter-eggy enough, people will get in line anyway.

I wouldn't skip the Tokyo Tower of Terror (Shiriki Utundu) story elements if you offered me a straight line to the elevator!

Kevin that's one of the reasons I dislike fast pass so much. It encourages the commando lifestyle at the Disney Parks. The Parks are so much more than a bunch of 3 minute rides. They were designed to be explored, and enjoyed at a relaxed pace.

I do realize that the powers that be running the resorts are much smarter than I am, but I feel they are going in the wrong direction with this hurry up, plan everything in advance attitude.

I would really like to hear the opinions of the imagineers who spent months working on a design only to have it eliminated to some of the guest because of FP, or is it just accepted as a way of life Eddie? Do you become immune to such things after having so many ideas shot down for various reasons?

 

[WDW1974]

I look at Everest as a huge artifice. It's a roller coaster inside a fabricated mountain containing a fabricated mythical beast. Personally I believe the artifacts were merely used as a prop to enhance the storyline. I guess you could say to add a touch of realism to the setting of the attraction.

You are certainly much more astute than I am Kevin when it comes to all things concerning Walt Disney World. I just think that Joe Rohde, and his team approached the attraction in the only way they could.

I think you can say that ... well, you just did ... but I'd say you're right about that. You could have just entered a warehouse building and the have switchbacks ... or even caves with lanterns hung, but I don't think they'd set the mood. EE was an Imagineering success creatively (minus a hole or two in the mountain and a bird on a stick) before every major effect decided to stop working and Disney's response was 'who cares? they're toursists. they don't know better'

Oh, as for Kevin, he's not as astute as he looks!:ROFLOL:
(But I think I smell another book in this thread!)

 

[WDW1974]

A very Merry Christmas to you my good friend. I hope Mickey doesn't sneak in and leave a lump of coal in your stocking again this year.:xmas:

Mickey should behave less like a rat and be happy with me (I actually PAID to get into DL last week for the first time since 2007!)

We could argue about the cost of that trip to Nepal, and probably never reach a consensus in this forum. My feeling is, that's a pretty impressive queue, and I consider the queue to be a major part of any well done attraction. A Pineapple Dole Whip cost $3.18. Is it worth it? To me it is, but not to you.

I used to think Dole Whips at WDW (larger portions still at DL, I believe) were fairly priced. Then they cut the portion by a third and raised the price 50-60 cents. It's just the Disney Way. :xmas:

 

[redshoesrock]

In the case of the Haunted Mansion
*It's loud
*It completely destroys the buildup to the ride, It shows that the ghosts are friendly before that is supposed to be revealed. Throughout the first half of the ride you are supposed to feel "did I just see that? with the new queue you experience some obvious ghostly manifestations prematurely.
*It is loud and obnoxious. The idea is as you enter the Mansion you feel a dark sense of foreboding. With the new queue you are basically interacting and playing with friendly ghosts in what is basically a slightly better designed McDonalds playground.
HBG2's blog did a better job of explaining it
http://longforgottenhauntedmansion.blogspot.com/2011/05/decadence.html
I don't necessarily agree with everything he says but it makes it's point.
The Interactive queue idea MIGHT work for some less carefully structured attractions that does not have to follow such a set of ground rules set by the original Imagineers but it's implementation for the Haunted Mansion is fundamentally wrong.

You've said in both one and three that they are "loud", so really we can lump reasons one and three together. And to be frank, you've said nearly the same thing in reasons two and three, so instead let's clear the clutter and see what you're saying:

1. It's loud and obnoxious
2. It ruins the build-up of the ride by showing the ghosts to be friendly before they're supposed to be revealed as such rather than keeping the sense of foreboding prior to entering the HM.
3. It's poorly designed, only slightly better than a McDonalds' playground

Reasons one and three are, to me, not valid reasons to show why the new HM queue is bad. Those are individual value judgments based on the opinion of YOU. Simply because you think the queue is loud, obnoxious, and poorly designed does not actually make them so. I personally don't find the HM queue loud, obnoxious, or poorly designed - so who is right? Me? You? Hence why neither reason can be considered - they're too subjective.

The second reason has a bit more weight and can be considered. One thing to keep in mind is that the Imagineers could never truly come to a consensus between the HM being scary or funny because the person who could break the tie, Walt, had died. Which is why the HM has both elements within it. The other thing to keep in mind is the location of the HM - the Magic Kingdom. While I personally love things that are quite scary, the reputation that the Magic Kingdom has is for family-style rides and attractions. Nothing too fast, nothing too scary. Do we need to re-hash the entire fiasco with Alien Encounter to show what happens when something *really* scary is put into the Magic Kingdom? An attraction called "The Haunted Mansion" already has a built-in scary factor into it - a musical organ and some moving books are not going to take that away. And if it can re-assure some smaller younger guests that the HM isn't terrifying (just slightly creepy, IMO) and get them to experience it, I'm all for it.