Eddie Sotto's take on the current state of the parks (Part II)

[Eddie Sotto]

I was not at WDI at that time, but my guess is that the TOT follows the DCA version for budget reasons. Having the cab leave the shaft and roam around is a big wow in Florida and I miss it in the newer versions. The budget version also makes the building look ridiculous with that "T" shape. You'd never know $$ was an issue by the look of the ornament on the TDS version.

 

[Pixiedustmaker]

There's a sort of a silver lining emerging in the gigantic grey cloud that is Detroit's bankruptcy . . . potential for a massive redevelopment project. One group wants to buy an island/park in the middle of Detroit, about 1,000 acres, in order to build semi-autonomous city-state that would lure private investment.

http://www.commonwealthofbelleisle.com/

http://www.michigancapitolconfidential.com/18920

And, yes, it comes with a monorail. From the website:

Belle Isle is currently an uninhabited island of 982 acres in the Detroit River, bordering the U.S. and Canada. It is owned by the City of Detroit and used as a public park. In the book Belle Isle, investors buy the island from Detroit for $1 billion and build a supercharged community with its own laws, customs, transportation systems, taxation and currency, transforming Belle Isle into the “Midwest Tiger,” rivaling Singapore and Hong Kong as an economic miracle. Served by a monorail, Belle Isle is a walking community, with restricted hours for vehicles. With emphasis on great planning and architecture, people from all over the world come to Belle Isle, to be part of its freedom and opportunity culture.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

There's a sort of a silver lining emerging in the gigantic grey cloud that is Detroit's bankruptcy . . . potential for a massive redevelopment project. One group wants to buy an island/park in the middle of Detroit, about 1,000 acres, in order to build semi-autonomous city-state that would lure private investment.

Wow. A fascinating solution to be sure. The thing that stands out to me most is that the design is the least important or should I say attractive aspect. Business Autonomy drives the design. I get that. An Island of business and wealth. Experimental Prototype CashCow of Tomorrow. Could it be that new transportation systems are not really what should be prototyped as much as new free market business models? Hong Kong was the business prototype for China. Detroit was the wealthiest City in the US in 1950 and now is bankrupt. Shocking. It is interesting to me that it takes something that defies or ignores current law and bureaucracy to be a "breakthrough". EPCOT was the same way in that it was on private land and was a clean slate, or "start over" proposition. It was an urban planning breakthrough. This is tax and business breakthrough with a nice layout. Is the real message that true prosperity is held "hostage" by regulation? Unless you can dodge "the system" by making your own business friendly Island, there is no "game changer" as Detroit declined under the present system. So if this worked, then what message does Belle Isle send to other cities on the brink? Will it be like Indian Casinos where every City needs a tax haven?

What a question this poses to civic leaders who if they approved this (I imagine there is little chance) would have to watch this thrive over the fence of their broken metropolis.Hopefully you adopt the things that work and ignore those that don't. That is what prototyping is all about.

The proposal speaks volumes wether it happens or not.

 

[flynnibus]

What a question this poses to civic leaders who if they approved this (I imagine there is little chance)

No one is lining up to do this - it's just a piece of fiction. There is nothing to approve.. there is nothing on the table. The subject is a book of fiction written by a developer as a kind of dream vision of what the world could be.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

No one is lining up to do this - it's just a piece of fiction. There is nothing to approve.. there is nothing on the table. The subject is a book of fiction written by a developer as a kind of dream vision of what the world could be.

Of course, and as most proposals remain fiction until someone steps up and turns them into fact. Disneyland was scoffed at too with no prototype. To me it's a bit more like Jules Verne's predictions. Lockwood is an accomplished developer, so in the Verne analogy he has built Rockets. The harmless fictional "story" is kind of there so it does not have to be taken seriously, but the idea still is pollenated. He wrote it because he wants it discussed at some level.
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/08/opinion/detroit-sinks-with-belle-isle.html?_r=0

It does have supporters although everyone knows at this point it's DOA.
"Though it is still considered a long shot by some, the plan has some influential supporters, including Mackinac Center for Public Policy senior economist David Littmann, retired Chrysler President Hal Sperlick and co-founder of Detroit’s Conerstone Schools Clark Durant. The group, along with Lockwood, presented their plan to city officials last week." -The Blaze.

The Zeitgeist is there sensing the desperate need for Detroit to save itself, so the fiction mounts, and eventually that "future" will happen somewhere if the need is great enough. Hong Kong does exist so it's not as outlandish as it seems, but politically I can't imagine anyone allowing this project to happen. It's a great "story" for now like Verne's trip to the moon. It does continue to be a topic on the list of things that Detroit could do so it's being discussed like Verne's Rocket. Again, it being out there at all as an option does speak volumes.

 

[flynnibus]

Again, it being out there at all as an option does speak volumes.

I just don't understand how making something up and socializing it makes it an option tho. Detroit being on the ropes sure sounds like an interesting catalyst... but Detroit isn't the one who would be making treaties with foreign entities anyways.

I think the comments about Jules Verne point out another strong tie.. science fiction.

Haven't read the book.. but I'm perplexed by the idea that you can have some self-sustaining utopian society in the next <50 years without strong transportation or industrial connections... with virtually ever material need needing import.

 

[DisneyDrum]

The budget version also makes the building look ridiculous with that "T" shape.

Do you happen to know why they need the T-shape building for those TOT versions? I assume its for some part of the lifting mechanism, but why does it have to be positioned on the side like that?

BTW, Thanks for the great thread Eddie!

 

[Wikkler]

Do you happen to know why they need the T-shape building for those TOT versions? I assume its for some part of the lifting mechanism, but why does it have to be positioned on the side like that?

BTW, Thanks for the great thread Eddie!

There are three elevator shafts on the other Towers but I don't know why the T-Shape...

 

[Eddie Sotto]

I just don't understand how making something up and socializing it makes it an option tho. Detroit being on the ropes sure sounds like an interesting catalyst... but Detroit isn't the one who would be making treaties with foreign entities anyways.

I think the comments about Jules Verne point out another strong tie.. science fiction.

Haven't read the book.. but I'm perplexed by the idea that you can have some self-sustaining utopian society in the next <50 years without strong transportation or industrial connections... with virtually ever material need needing import.

We are a society of fiscal facilitation, we don't make anything. Look at Monaco and Hong Kong. They are financially driven in that they just need their own rules to attract money. Like we do with redevelopment areas in cities where there are tax incentives to invest in certain zones. This is a bigger scale idea and is it's own Commonwealth so that's extreme. I can't say they are utopian, but they thrive.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

There are three elevator shafts on the other Towers but I don't know why the T-Shape...

I believe that's where the show scenes are.

 

[flynnibus]

We are a society of fiscal facilitation, we don't make anything. Look at Monaco and Hong Kong. They are financially driven in that they just need their own rules to attract money. Like we do with redevelopment areas in cities where there are tax incentives to invest in certain zones. This is a bigger scale idea and is it's own Commonwealth so that's extreme. I can't say they are utopian, but they thrive.

Those examples exist and can be sustaining because they are connected. They can be specialized because somewhere else can create those things and they can get them easily into this 'specialized' place.

It's akin to people pointing out how great labor laws are in part of western europe. They can get away with that because products can still be made cheaply ELSEWHERE and easily imported. The model relies on 'someone else' doing all the dirty work in a place outside of the same rules applied here. You can afford to be elite and specialized.. as long as you are connected and can get the things you don't have the space for, resources for, or things you can't do economically under your model.

Looking at it simply.. its why Manhatten can support millions and be a powerful city today... without any agg, manufacturing, etc. But it works because it's a connected 'brain'. Cut the head off from the body.. and it would die.

Here, you have the proposal of something similar... yet it does not have the same connecting body feeding it so easily. To be a pure consumer society.. you still need to be connected to those making what you consume Sure you can export knowledge easy enough without impedment of physical or political barriers... but your society still needs that material aspect to survive day to day.

Monorail bridge to an island looks cool... but does it carry the consumables your population needs every day just to function?

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Monorail bridge to an island looks cool... but does it carry the consumables your population needs every day just to function?

Good points all...It's "semi" autonomous, it needs the "host" to survive.. but that's why it's fiction!

 

[Pixiedustmaker]

Wow. A fascinating solution to be sure. The thing that stands out to me most is that the design is the least important or should I say attractive aspect. Business Autonomy drives the design. I get that. An Island of business and wealth. Experimental Prototype CashCow of Tomorrow. Could it be that new transportation systems are not really what should be prototyped as much as new free market business models? Hong Kong was the business prototype for China. Detroit was the wealthiest City in the US in 1950 and now is bankrupt. Shocking. It is interesting to me that it takes something that defies or ignores current law and bureaucracy to be a "breakthrough". EPCOT was the same way in that it was on private land and was a clean slate, or "start over" proposition. It was an urban planning breakthrough. This is tax and business breakthrough with a nice layout. Is the real message that true prosperity is held "hostage" by regulation? Unless you can dodge "the system" by making your own business friendly Island, there is no "game changer" as Detroit declined under the present system. So if this worked, then what message does Belle Isle send to other cities on the brink? Will it be like Indian Casinos where every City needs a tax haven?

What a question this poses to civic leaders who if they approved this (I imagine there is little chance) would have to watch this thrive over the fence of their broken metropolis.Hopefully you adopt the things that work and ignore those that don't. That is what prototyping is all about.

The proposal speaks volumes wether it happens or not.

I think that if Walt had gone through with Epcot, as he originally envisioned, it would have been a lot less utopian than some would have liked. Yes, it would have had some great urban planning, but it also would have been dominated by corporations. Would the Reedy Creek legislation have encouraged businesses to setup their headquarters there? As a lot of people know, many corporations maintained a "closet" headquarters in the state of Delaware, often times nothing more than a small room, in order to evade certain tax laws.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/01/b...-corporate-tax-haven.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

Check out this blurb:

"1209 North Orange, you see, is the legal address of no fewer than 285,000 separate businesses.
Its occupants, on paper, include giants like American Airlines, Apple, Bank of America, Berkshire Hathaway, Cargill, Coca-Cola, Ford, General Electric, Google, JPMorgan Chase, and Wal-Mart. These companies do business across the nation and around the world. Here at 1209 North Orange, they simply have a dropbox."

Something tells me that Joe Biden is perfectly fine with his state making a modest amount of money off of tax-evading corporations (at the expense of states where they really have their headquarters). Apparently all politics is local!

Presuming that Walt had built Epcot, a lot of people would have wanted to live there, but I think that in reality it would have been limited to mid-level to high-level employees of major corporations, a sort of super corporate think tank, and experimental community in one. (Remember Epcot would have been on private property). If Epcot were working today, the CEO of Google might well live and that would be where Google Glasses would be tested first, as well as numerous other pieces of technology, a sort of urban Area 51. I'm reminded of the American cities that the Soviets built in order to learn about, and pretend, to be Americans.

Epcot might have become the Silicon Valley of the US had it been completed.

Belle Isle has a lot of interesting, even experimental, urban planning features, such as no car travel allowed past a certain time of day, probably to allow for safer/easier recreation on the island.

 

[Pixiedustmaker]

Monorail bridge to an island looks cool... but does it carry the consumables your population needs every day just to function?

Ah, there is automobile traffic as well. The plans calls for a massive hotel, so they've got that covered.

 

[Pixiedustmaker]

It does have supporters although everyone knows at this point it's DOA.
"Though it is still considered a long shot by some, the plan has some influential supporters, including Mackinac Center for Public Policy senior economist David Littmann, retired Chrysler President Hal Sperlick and co-founder of Detroit’s Conerstone Schools Clark Durant. The group, along with Lockwood, presented their plan to city officials last week." -The Blaze.

It probably is DOA, in its current form, but $1 billion cash payment for the island, plus all of the money with construction jobs and supporting Belle Isle would, in essence save/revitalize Detroit. (Though the politicians might frit away this windfall as well).

Big corporations are trying to get around paying taxes all the time. I'm not sure of the specifics, but there are borderline grey stuff going on all the time with funds managed elsewhere.

http://www.csmonitor.com/Business/T...omney-manage-his-investments-from-the-Caymans

The biggest loser would be Wall Street, as many investment fund managers would pony up the $300,000 to become a Belle Isle citizen, and manage their fund from the island. The population would be only 35,000, but the average income would likely be in the millions.

Belle Isle is less about making a utopian city, and more about putting a money maker in the US and giving foreign companies a reason to setup shop and do more business here. Can't say it is entirely a bad idea.

Why should Switzerland and the Cayman Islands have all the fun and make money off of having lucrative deals for bankers? Obama criticized the Cayman Islands, but why not put one in Detroit's backyard to save one of America's most bankrupt and violent places to live?

 

[Omnispace]

I've been to Detroit quite a bit these past several years. I like the enthusiasm behind projects like this but I am not sure they are the solution. The Renaissance Center development of the 1970's was supposed to turn around Detroit's fortunes but ended up being an island in a deteriorating downtown. The Belle Island project is more profoundly isolated. I believe the appeal of it is that they don't have to deal with the rest of the city and can make an easy buck. Cloak the project in a 19th Century sense of urbanism and say it is a new model for society. Hopefully people are smarter than that.

I think the best solutions are going to be those that restore the fabric of the community and take advantage of cleared space. I've even read about possibilities for farming the land which could reestablish some much needed greenbelts in the urban region. Sure, a lot of Detroit's ills were the result of a multitude of factors so each of those should be looked at but the opportunities for the city are also very unique. It's going to take a lot of creative thinking and fortitude - much more so that the encapsulated Belle Island proposal.

 

[Pixiedustmaker]

This is a little off topic, but couldn't help notice some recent pictures of the state of some of the animals around DL's river. There's a bird's nest which has a blue wire frame! Maybe Eddie or somebody else knows why they went with blue wire, would figure that you'd want to make the frame brown in case any of it is visible. (Or just use un-insulated wire which will rust and turn brown anyway . . . )

Amazing that the bird next to the nest is sitting on a "rock"!

Also, with the blad eagle, they glued or somehow attached real feathers onto the bird. Hard to believe they maintain animatronics in the Jungle Cruise, yet the Mark Twain's scenery gets so much less love . . . maybe they're just temporary and they plan on expanding Frontierland in five years.

Did the bird find somebody's blue sweater and make it part of her nest?

 

[Pixiedustmaker]

The Belle Island project is more profoundly isolated. I believe the appeal of it is that they don't have to deal with the rest of the city and can make an easy buck.

. . .

I've even read about possibilities for farming the land which could reestablish some much needed greenbelts in the urban region.

It is very true that the would-be residents of Belle Isle would live mostly on their isolated island, maybe taking the monorail to revitalized downtown to catch a show, or only reside there a fraction of the year for tax purposes. I think the possibility is that the project would be massive ($20 billion?) in terms of construction and there would be a steady stream of construction jobs for probably half a decade, if not longer. Plus, when it is done, there would be some jobs for those who live in Detroit and could commute in, support staff, etc. . .

Detroit has a high murder rate, I think that the only way to really tackle that is to hire more police and increase the prosecution/conviction rate. It used to be in the 1950's that the conviction rate for murder was high, like near 90%. And with the rise of large cities, where people don't know each other as well as they used to, the closure rate is something like 62% nationwide, in Detroit the closure rate is 33-35%.

http://www.examiner.com/article/why-detroit-leads-the-nation-violent-crime

In countries with abysmal closure rates for homicide, like near 10%, you see a whole lot more murders because the bad guys know that they can get away with it. Detroit also has something like 30 arsons a day. There has also been a lot of corruption in Detroit. Don't see the city turning around without more money for police and basic services. If businesses are too afraid to setup shop in Detroit, maybe Belle Isle would be a much needed bastion of peacefulness and jobs for people who are stuck in a really horrible situations.

Agree that the old buildings and empty lots needs to be cleared, and that plants/trees should be put there. I've got a garden, my tomato plant I let go wild puts out about 5 tomatos every couple days for the past 3 months . . . but soil quality is all important, and that includes making sure there aren't contaminates and heavy metals. Is there lead in these old buildings? Asbestos? I'd be kinda hesitant about putting up some planters on a recently cleared lot, unless I could removed the first six inches or so of soil, and build 36" planters filled with quality stuff AND do testing, and only if there wasn't a building there previously.

Are they also going to dig up foundations and test the soil on the lots? I think if they planted trees/shrubs, and mulched, nature would sort of heal itself in a decade or so.

"Phytoremediation" of soil (using plants to absorb and concentrate the bad stuff and sometimes process into a less dangerous form), such as to remove lead/arsenic can be done, and there are other ways to make sure the soil is healthy. If done on a large scale, it would probably be cost effective and efficient.

I only use a compost blend which is tested for heavy metals and certain bacterial contaminants. I personally wouldn't eat anything grown near a gas station (lead),

https://www.boundless.com/biology/p...iation-a-form-of-bioremediation-using-plants/

 

[Black Pearl]

Just looked up a video of Pooh at TDL and that does look awesome! Haven't been there yet to experience it in person, but great stuff. Love that rebel talk Eddie about "not supposed to create a new ride system... But did anyway"

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Just looked up a video of Pooh at TDL and that does look awesome! Haven't been there yet to experience it in person, but great stuff. Love that rebel talk Eddie about "not supposed to create a new ride system... But did anyway"

The problem was to create a new attraction without R&D. There was not much on the shelf at the time. Frankly, I hated using anything already done so we kind of cheated with the Aquatopia, but it was something in process and at the time. I thought we could just use the guts of the system, but it was guided by lasers that needed a clear line of sight to each car from a central location. You can't do that with physical dark ride sets in the way, so we had to rethink the guidance. Once you do that, the strategy unraveled into a new system. The show was funded and going by then and we were off to the races. There were lots of problems with the software when it opened and it had to be rewritten in Japan, from what I heard. We had trouble finding programmers at the time as they were all fixing Test Track.