Eddie Sotto's take on the current state of the parks (Part II)

[Eddie Sotto]

For the "Montana Future" vision to be realized in any understandable way, it's a bit of an "all or nothing" type approach. Disney parks are so intrinsically urban and crowded, it's hard to convey the "paradise" we aspire to be in when you are forcing huge crowds through it, or have to deal with existing concrete monoliths. The "Carousel of Progress" would have been a way to deal with that future. You can theatrically show the home and family in this tech filled, yet Idyllic natural environment. The excitement is in the contrast of the two.

 

[lazyboy97o]

For the "Montana Future" vision to be realized in any understandable way, it's a bit of an "all or nothing" type approach. Disney parks are so intrinsically urban and crowded, it's hard to convey the "paradise" we aspire to be in when you are forcing huge crowds through it, or have to deal with existing concrete monoliths. The "Carousel of Progress" would have been a way to deal with that future. You can theatrically show the home and family in this tech filled, yet Idyllic natural environment. The excitement is in the contrast of the two.

I never really considered the Montana Future to be exclusively rural. I think it could work with an urban environment, but one that is more integrated with environmental system than the more stark, concrete Tomorrowlands.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

It's up to interpretation, but to me it is "greener" and dominates the built environment. The "Montana" phrase was derived from people cashing out of the city and moving there. Planters with edible food trapped between buildings does not seem explicit enough.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Here's something to try on for size..

http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-roller-coaster-rules-20130723,0,168009.story

 

[flynnibus]

Here's something to try on for size..

http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-roller-coaster-rules-20130723,0,168009.story

Kind of a weak article... talks about restraints clicking - which isn't always the case (including the one in the accident) and doesn't address that many attractions do already have 'plus sized' seats in specific locations, etc. The problem is real - but maybe eventually we can stop being so PC and just tell people 'you're too fat to ride'.

 

[Astro Blaster]

Kind of a weak article... talks about restraints clicking - which isn't always the case (including the one in the accident) and doesn't address that many attractions do already have 'plus sized' seats in specific locations, etc. The problem is real - but maybe eventually we can stop being so PC and just tell people 'you're too fat to ride'.

I saw this actually happen on Space Mountain. A woman sat down in the coaster, but her fat was literally spilling over the sides and she couldn't get the restraint to lock. The cast members came over to help but they were also unable to get the restraint the lock in place, so they told her that unfortunately she couldn't ride.

She started crying because it was obviously really embarrassing, and I felt really bad for her but what can you do...

 

[flynnibus]

She started crying because it was obviously really embarrassing, and I felt really bad for her but what can you do...

I really support the idea of putting the 'test fit' ride vehicles outside the attraction (as many rides have done now). This avoids that kind of exclusion while everyone is watching scenario... improves efficiency when guests don't wait in line for something they can't ride.. and it would speed up loading by avoiding the majority of these situations.

 

[Magenta Panther]

I saw this actually happen on Space Mountain. A woman sat down in the coaster, but her fat was literally spilling over the sides and she couldn't get the restraint to lock. The cast members came over to help but they were also unable to get the restraint the lock in place, so they told her that unfortunately she couldn't ride.

She started crying because it was obviously really embarrassing, and I felt really bad for her but what can you do...

Well, we know what she could do. Lose the @#!!! weight. I've heard tell of people who were motivated to lose weight so that they could ride Forbidden Journey. If they can do it, she can do it. Maybe that unfortunate experience was a wake-up call for that lady. Let's hope so.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

I don't think that lady in Texas will be "waking up" anytime soon, so the accident is truly tragic. No one should die at a theme park. The real issue is that you design for the majority of the seating for the "average" sized person. There are size constraints to safety as we all know if you are not yet tall enough you cannot ride. Statistically, the size of the average person has increased over the years and so you have to become sensitive to that at some point. On the other hand, some of these issues arise when the guest is well beyond any size you can reasonably design to and it is lawfully risky to ask them not to ride. Like flying coach, we can experience the effects that plus size individuals have to bear in those conditions. It's not fun for either party.

The ADA (Americans with Disabilities Act) rulings are all about "barrier removal", meaning that you cannot prejudicially screen out someone from experiencing an attraction because of an ergonomic condition you created. This can go to extremes, so there are exemptions and I won't get into that, but by and large you have to make things as accessible as you reasonably can. They just nuked the Sleeping Beauty Castle Hearaldry shop to create a video booth of the neighboring Castle walk thru, so guests who cannot climb stairs can watch it as a compromised way of experiencing the show. Same with Nemo Subs. The issue being raised in the coaster accident is that it might have been possible that the smaller size of the seat contributed to the situation of the heavy set woman flying out. Don't know. At some point, we all have to use good judgement and carry a reasonable level of responsibility for what we submit ourselves to.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

I really support the idea of putting the 'test fit' ride vehicles outside the attraction (as many rides have done now). This avoids that kind of exclusion while everyone is watching scenario... improves efficiency when guests don't wait in line for something they can't ride.. and it would speed up loading by avoiding the majority of these situations.

That is a good idea, but who wants to put themselves on display outside "not fitting" into the test seat in front of a bunch of guests. I'd rather have a color coded seat graphic in the guide book or discreetly marked on signage so you know what to expect. If the ride has a "plus" icon on the entry sign then you can request that seat, etc. Show the test seat measurements online or a mock up sofa type thing that does not look like a car outside the park, etc. Near where you rent those electric carts, etc. I think alot of this can be avoided by giving guests and operators a heads up in a way that does not challenge their personal dignity or slow things down.

 

[flynnibus]

That is a good idea, but who wants to put themselves on display outside "not fitting" into the test seat in front of a bunch of guests

There is plenty of other things you could distract the public with It's certainly better than sitting at load where everyone is focused on one thing.. the train Or put the test vehicle slightly to the side out of view and let the greeter position redirect people to the test vehicle on a 'as needed' basis.

I think the problem with your color code system is simply that each attraction is going to be so different. From an open air, lap bar design, to another that is a butterfly chest restraint, etc. It would be hard to generalize this while still trying to be as inclusive as possible.. without making all vehicles uniform.

 

[rle4lunch]

There's a lot more to it than just putting a 'plus' sign on a certain seat and having them sit there. There's engineering aspects such as CG and weight and balance to look at, evenly distributing the load so that the trains will travel correctly. Putting a fatty in a certain seat will no doubt face a stupid lawsuit for discrimination (think of the people that wait extra to sit in the front or back) at some point. This whole 'inclusion act', dropping fake 'barriers' to accomodate people is just dumb. I think we're at that point in time in where being politically correct is actually going to cause more harm than good.

This argument is so moot it's unbelievable that it even has to be talked about. The coaster crash was not the fault of the rider, it was the fault of the operators. It wasn't a safety issue on equipment, it was a safety issue by the ones that were trying to be polite and let a person that was too big to ride the ride in the manner that the ride was designed.

 

[flynnibus]

This argument is so moot it's unbelievable that it even has to be talked about. The coaster crash was not the fault of the rider, it was the fault of the operators. It wasn't a safety issue on equipment, it was a safety issue by the ones that were trying to be polite and let a person that was too big to ride the ride in the manner that the ride was designed.

Based on what information?

The witness report quoted in most of the early reports has been proven untrustworthy because it cites references that don't even exist on the attraction?

Are the ride operators trained on exactly how much movement is mandatory in the restraint to be 'enough'?
Are the ride operators trained to know what body mass is sturdy and which is transient?

If the cause was the restraint hadn't moved enough to be in the safe position.. why did the train's system allow it to dispatch? Does the system have no safety interlock if all restraints aren't secure?

I think you're jumping too far ahead... the ride operator should never be in the position to make the determination if a restraint is 'safe' for the person's body. It needs to be black and white. These rides are designed to be operated by basically teenagers.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

I posted the article because it is a complicated issue designers face and is part of today's Imagineering challenges. It's not easy to solve and you are held a bit hostage by the legal aspects that surround any common sense decision. As was pointed out, there are many factors as to who should and should not ride based on the wide variety of seat designs and ride experiences.

 

[rle4lunch]

These rides are designed to be operated by basically teenagers.

Exactly. Even if it was the fault of the equipment, it's still the fault of the operator, that was my whole point. I'm sure they'll find something that will need to be beefed up, i.e. safety catch, gearing upgrade, etc., but in order for the system and backup system to fail, it pretty much hinges on the gear being pushed outside of its normal operating parameters. I'm not saying that there wasn't a flaw in the system, just that it probably wasn't designed to take that amount of load. This goes back to your argument saying that it might be high time to start looking at the weight limits and turning people away. This country hasn't adopted an apathetic apologist attitude in where common sense and doing the right thing has went out the door in lieu of being nice.[/quote]

 

[flynnibus]

Even if it was the fault of the equipment, it's still the fault of the operator, that was my whole point

Then your point makes no sense. Systems driven outside their operating specs are not fault of the equipment if the equipment performed as it should - that is the fault of those either operating it or those that decide how its operated. But we don't know if the system even failed at this point.

I'm sure they'll find something that will need to be beefed up, i.e. safety catch, gearing upgrade, etc., but in order for the system and backup system to fail, it pretty much hinges on the gear being pushed outside of its normal operating parameters

No necessarily - that's why they call it a 'failure'...

I'm not saying that there wasn't a flaw in the system, just that it probably wasn't designed to take that amount of load

Now you've jumped to conclusions on what the fault was... with nothing to really base it on.

And if the operators are not trained to exclude that scenario - it wouldn't be their fault for not doing so. That would be an operational failure of the ride procedures.

The point about teenagers is you don't design the system to have non-experts make such decisions - the ride op procedure defines what is allowed and what is not - there should be no room for interpretation. Ride operators are not qualified to make interpretations.

 

[rle4lunch]

Then your point makes no sense. Systems driven outside their operating specs are not fault of the equipment if the equipment performed as it should - that is the fault of those either operating it or those that decide how its operated. But we don't know if the system even failed at this point.



No necessarily - that's why they call it a 'failure'...



Now you've jumped to conclusions on what the fault was... with nothing to really base it on.

And if the operators are not trained to exclude that scenario - it wouldn't be their fault for not doing so. That would be an operational failure of the ride procedures.

The point about teenagers is you don't design the system to have non-experts make such decisions - the ride op procedure defines what is allowed and what is not - there should be no room for interpretation. Ride operators are not qualified to make interpretations.

blah blah blah. Man you come off bad. You really don't have any type of bedside manner. Can't you approach someone in a non confrontational way on here? Every post you're berating someone about something. I sure am glad I don't look down my nose at everyone like you do, that's be a miserable existence. Everyone has their opinions, and for you to poo-poo and nitpick like you do, just to make sure you're opinion trumps everyone elses, well, that's just sad. You sound like Sheldon off of Big Bang Theory. yep. that bad.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

This train wreck is even worse! Now that's operator error...The video is a jaw dropper.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...0-injured-Santiago-Compostela-derailment.html

 

[Wikkler]

Nothing's horrifying to me anymore.

 

[flynnibus]

blah blah blah. Man you come off bad.

Typical response when people can't face the specifics. This isn't about 'opinions' -- this is how the stuff is made. You can make up your own opinions, you don't get to make up your own facts.