Eddie Sotto's take on the current state of the parks (Part II)

[Darth Sidious]

I would not consider that a compliment.

Admittedly it was backhanded but for what it's worth they get the job done for shareholders. Well... At least as of late they have. I wouldn't use any superlatives to describe their work other than serviceable. They just need someone to take it to the next level and I do understand they are sort of pigeonholed into taking little risk.

 

[Cosmic Commando]

I know but all the other lands suggest Genres rather than specific franchises the lands would be
*World Bazarr
*Adventureland
*Westernland
*Critter Country
*Fantasyland
*Tomorrowland
*Carsland?
One of these things is not like the other things, unless Cars Land is somehow integrated into Westernland and I don't see how that would work if Westernland is aiming for the same Old West motif as the stateside parks. I suppose since it is "Western" and not "Frontier" you could bend the rules and justify the Route 66 theme as the gateway to the west but that would really be pushing it.

I've thought for a long time about what makes a land fit in a park, and I keep thinking back to the first new land: New Orleans Square. Before New Orleans Square, Disneyland's lands were like sections in a library or a day at the movies. You had small town America, Fantasyland, Frontierland, Adventureland, and Tomorrowland. It was very broad definitions for everything, but then comes New Orleans Square! It's set in a very specific, very real place that probably had a reputation for debauchery (although Southern gentlemen with mint juleps debauchery back then, not Girls Gone Wild debauchery) even in the 60's. How did that fit? Well, I guess the answer is that it just did. I think we get stuck in our rut of thinking we know what belongs based on what already exists. If it's a good experience, and Cars Land is an awesome experience, I generally think it will be OK. Entire lands have much more latitude to be their own thing than a single attraction within a land that we fans may not think fits.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Admittedly it was backhanded but for what it's worth they get the job done for shareholders. Well... At least as of late they have. I wouldn't use any superlatives to describe their work other than serviceable. They just need someone to take it to the next level and I do understand they are sort of pigeonholed into taking little risk.

In today's world, "vision" can also be attributed to acquiring creative resources if you don't possess them in of yourself. Bob Iger has not tried to pretend he is the new Walt, but rather has tried to infuse the company with those who loved and mimic the traditions of the company in buying Pixar. Even George Lucas was a great Disney fan and now they can benefit from his legacy. Marvel is an attempt to grow the company in areas it was weak, so in a way that is a strategic vision too. John Lassiter as a creative force inside Disney has had a great effect. I was there when he was absent and the lack of creative vision and quality ethic is what led to the original DCA, and other derivative products. Bob understands this and writes more checks than press releases when it comes to quality. Eisner has creative talent and led on his own instincts, but as he admits, it was best tempered when he and President Frank Wells were a team.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

I've thought for a long time about what makes a land fit in a park, and I keep thinking back to the first new land: New Orleans Square. Before New Orleans Square, Disneyland's lands were like sections in a library or a day at the movies. You had small town America, Fantasyland, Frontierland, Adventureland, and Tomorrowland. It was very broad definitions for everything, but then comes New Orleans Square! It's set in a very specific, very real place that probably had a reputation for debauchery (although Southern gentlemen with mint juleps debauchery back then, not Girls Gone Wild debauchery) even in the 60's. How did that fit? Well, I guess the answer is that it just did. I think we get stuck in our rut of thinking we know what belongs based on what already exists. If it's a good experience, and Cars Land is an awesome experience, I generally think it will be OK. Entire lands have much more latitude to be their own thing than a single attraction within a land that we fans may not think fits.

New Orleans Square was my favorite land of all. It had a sophisticated realism that was just romanticized enough. It's the cleaned up 1850's New Orleans, and that works for me.Disney defines things as he sees them and left out the sleaze and just gave us the better nature of what New Orleans never was, but we can enjoy it because it exists. Walt reinvented it. It felt so real and composed like a labyrinth on a backlot. The live music was beautiful and perfectly fit the space. Mint Juleps, Beignets, and French Dip Sandwiches. The sensory formula was tight and at an all time high. The Riverboat was the backdrop (all you needed was Lafitte on the Island). Wow. And no Cartoon tie ins, it was adult. NOS never talked down to you. The original colors were restrained and Parisian (rich and grayed), very elegant and so were the unique shops. Underneath the "skin" and out of sight were Pirates in a dream world someplace very close, yet miles away. You could even dine with one foot in the nighttime "fantasy" and the other grounded in the "reality" at the "Blue Bayou"! The two worlds met there. So incredible. I got to first experience this all at age 9. Quite an impact. I Immediately found a book of historic drawings and images of the real place and began copying the details of the iron lace and moody architecture. That land inspired me to go to history books, not the toy store. If you have a set or can find one, look at the Viewmaster reels of NOS from that time and you'll feel the tight integration of everything from the "One of a Kind" merchandise to the food and the shows, even the talent in the streets. NOS is the pinnacle of impeccable (20th Century Fox) theming and Walt's dream of what Disneyland can be for all ages. He knew it, as he was planning to move in himself with another Apartment.

He could have a 2nd home in "Europe" and one back home in MSUSA America.

 

[Darth Sidious]

In today's world, "vision" can also be attributed to acquiring creative resources if you don't possess them in of yourself. Bob Iger has not tried to pretend he is the new Walt, but rather has tried to infuse the company with those who loved and mimic the traditions of the company in buying Pixar. Even George Lucas was a great Disney fan and now they can benefit from his legacy. Marvel is an attempt to grow the company in areas it was weak, so in a way that is a strategic vision too. John Lassiter as a creative force inside Disney has had a great effect. I was there when he was absent and the lack of creative vision and quality ethic is what led to the original DCA, and other derivative products. Bob understands this and writes more checks than press releases when it comes to quality. Eisner has creative talent and led on his own instincts, but as he admits, it was best tempered when he and President Frank Wells were a team.

Yeah that evaluation using the word serviceable is harsh. I am happy with the deals Iger has made and his managing the company through a terrible economic crisis. I also need to give Bob some bonus points for growing up only a few towns over here on Long Island. I think my opinion was tainted by my failure to realize where the company was and where Bob has taken it. Fans of WDW haven't seen the mind blowing changes that happened over at DCA but they may see them in the future. Bob seems to have taken to wanting his own legacy of truly making the company better. His acquisitions filled a void in the company and I hope the future brings some brand new IP from TWDC as well. I think having John Lasseter is great for quality and creativity. Although it is premature... Do you think there are any front runners for the CEO job when Iger retires (as he has announced)? (Do you have anyone you're rooting for?)

 

[Cosmic Commando]

Underneath the "skin" and out of sight were Pirates in a dream world someplace very close, yet miles away. You could even dine with one foot in the nighttime "fantasy" and the other grounded in the "reality" at the "Blue Bayou"! The two worlds met there. So incredible.

That is one of my favorite parts of NOS, the way Pirates is right there in the middle of it, but doesn't dominate at all. You could even say it's hiding. No castle or mountain or other giant facade marking the entrance to the ride.

 

[EPCOTCenterLover]

NOS is my favorite Disney land ever, Eddie- and for the reasons you shared so eloquently. As far as SoCal goes, Cars Land is so well done, it's becoming second place.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

That is one of my favorite parts of NOS, the way Pirates is right there in the middle of it, but doesn't dominate at all. You could even say it's hiding. No castle or mountain or other giant facade marking the entrance to the ride.

Yes. Isn't that incredible? I think it does hide in plain sight as it looms as this alternative world right under your nose. I think that is part of the impact of that show,here you exit into bright sunlight of Royal Street and say to yourself, "Where was I just now? Was that a dream?" The Catacombs of Paris is the only other experience like that I recall. You are under the city in all this labyrinth of death and ossuary, and then pop out to a modern world that seems oblivious to it's existence, yet it's all around you. It's like connecting two worlds and collapsing time. Pirates feels the same way. Carsland is great, and very immersive. It does not have the same depth or richness that New Orleans had with the whole system of experience clicking.It is probably the best effort ever given today's corporate culture. Yet Carsland feels like it could use more variety in the "city" portion and the merchandise shops do not deliver as well as they could. I feel done too quickly. NOS had shops (in the beginning) that were thematically rich to experience (Silver,Perfume, Artists, Antiques,Crystal) and sacrificed the mass popularity of the product. It seemed that it was truly what Walt and Lillian liked to shop for on vacation and that is what ended up there.

We read about how Universal's WWHP has reinvented the brand franchise with themed areas, linking seamlessly to the food and merchandise with the "Butter Beer", "Wands" and all of this themed "Immersion" based on the big anchor attraction. NOS did that decades earlier and even better in it's own way. So good in fact, that it spawned a movie franchise of it's own in POTC with nothing in the way of awareness other than it's existence as a ride, 3 decades after it's inception! What an impact. To me, NOS and all that was woven into it was the pinnacle of an art that too soon became a "lost art" (How could you follow NOS with "Bear Country"?). Universal rediscovered it, and now that the money is rolling in for them, it is the new benchmark for the all "sharp pencil boys" on how to succeed in theming. That is, until someone spends too much and no one shows.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

You made an interesting comment regarding Bob Iger and quality. Many on these boards have expressed quality concerns with WDW, similar to those that existed a decade ago at DLR. Do you think these WDW quality concerns are well-founded? If so, do you think Iger is aware of them?

I do think they are well founded. I'm sure he is aware of these things at least in a general way at one level or another. He does walk the properties.

As I posted before, I do think there is only so much money you can justify spending each year in any one area and they have to prioritize over time. Like an Emergency Room,, there were some trauma patients (DCA) bleeding on the table that they had to save first. They proved to me that they will spend heavily on good projects and Carsland and even Nemo both stand up as well funded jobs. Even the DCA makeover is not complete, and they are plussing it. The results are there and so DL will likely be next. Bob pushed for and wrote the check himself for the restoration of DL for the 50th. That was a big rehab. I'm sure the MK will get plussed if the New FL is a success. That project seems to be well done and rich in detail, so the tradition seems to be more in the do it right,versus doing less.

Personally, Bob Iger is impeccable and meticulous in how he does things. He is not and does not appreciate anything sloppy. That's why I think he supports and will eventually support things being made right as it become possible within the grand priorities he has to deal with. WDW is a big property and it's within the priorities of all of the parks, some like DLP, that are in far worse shape. Bob just reorganized that problem fiscally so they can make a better difference and have more of a free hand to fix it, even in a horrid collapsing economy.

Bob also was wise to spend in the down economic moments. In 2008 and 09 he was writing checks to redo DCA while contractors were hungry, but profits were slim. Lesser CEOs would beg off and hibernate. He threw a "party" and got the work going. It paid off. Bob Iger's legacy is not about him being on TV, but rather fixing the past while laying a massive foundation for the future with all of these creative brand acquisitions. Remember he was dissed big time by being called a "nice guy" that had little ability to run the company, and he has shown those doubters to be dead wrong.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Bob seems to have taken to wanting his own legacy of truly making the company better. His acquisitions filled a void in the company and I hope the future brings some brand new IP from TWDC as well. I think having John Lasseter is great for quality and creativity. Although it is premature... Do you think there are any front runners for the CEO job when Iger retires (as he has announced)? (Do you have anyone you're rooting for?)

I'd love to see a Walt/Roy "Creative vs. Fiscal" team versus just looking at one guy. I'd love to see Lassiter or even Lucas if he would do it, be a visionary that could be tempered by a Staggs or someone like Frank Wells was. Art and Commerce. Eisner/Wells was magic and it worked, like Walt and Roy. I'd love to see (fat chance) a partnership management with lots of fighting, vision, and a dash of fiscal temperance, enabling the company to have some reasonable risk going on. Too often, large Corporations become "large beasts" that seek their own food and do so in the safest harbors (Apple is becoming this). You need the "Big Game Hunters" out there hunting for sport rather than mere survival, and that's what the Lucas or Lassiter types represent to slow moving beasts. a big trophy is a bigger win than a chicken dinner. the corporation just wants lots of chicken dinners and will look for larger chickens. No one needs a mounted Zebra head, but it's illogical, cool and they hunt for it anyway. The iPhone, iPad and other innovations like iPod are not products of typical corporate process, but the result of personal instinct, vision and leadership and are "Gamechangers". That is what Disney was built on. Disneyland was the iPhone of Amusement Parks, was the result of a personal vision in spite of the corporate appetite (to stay in film) and invented, like the iPad, it's own product category called the theme park. Partnerships keep the "Big Game Hunters" from either being "eaten" by their prey or "running out of bullets", as the "bad cop" fiscal guy reins them in from themselves and their egos. Wells could humble Eisner when his ideas were dumb, Roy fought with Walt or found the money. Balance with high creativity seems to me like the best way to proceed. I root for partnerships.

 

[smikes]

Its not Nintendo hardware that I would miss, though that may be changing as I really do love the Wii U so far but for me longterm Nintendo has always been software based love and me truly disliking some of the consoles themselves for certain things.

The NES was prone to failure every bit as much as the 360, PS1 or PS2.

I and my family were less then thrilled when the SNES (which is ugly enough to begin with) turned that ugly shade of yellow.

The N64 had its issues that I personally weren't personally ed about from using carts but the analog sticks we less then sturdy.

The GCN was great accept for the tiny original memory cards, short controller cords, lack of online support and the dumb idea of using less main system memory then PS2 despite using more overall memory.

The Wii was simply over priced in my eyes and not just the system, I've had an issue with the costs of wiimotes and nunchuk's from day one and I have an open thread on the subject right now.

For me, I've been a Nintendo guy because they make some of the best games on the planet and I like to play the best games on the planet.

 

[Cosmic Commando]

Yes. Isn't that incredible? I think it does hide in plain sight as it looms as this alternative world right under your nose. I think that is part of the impact of that show,here you exit into bright sunlight of Royal Street and say to yourself, "Where was I just now? Was that a dream?" The Catacombs of Paris is the only other experience like that I recall. You are under the city in all this labyrinth of death and ossuary, and then pop out to a modern world that seems oblivious to it's existence, yet it's all around you. It's like connecting two worlds and collapsing time. Pirates feels the same way.

And that all reminds me very much of your plan to unify Pirates, Mansion and Tom Sawyer Island through Jean Lafitte. I can definitely see the angle from which you were approaching the idea. It would've been a brilliant way to expand the "underworld" of NOS.

 

[flynnibus]

NES failures? The cartridge slot was an issue.. usually MANY YEARS after you had it. And was generally easy to overcome. At least it didn't brick your system... they weren't seen as unreliable. Want unreliable? Try Atari 2600 joysticks. Or the membranes on Intellivision controllers. The NES was a tank in comparison.

The 360 had problems that literally caused internal failure - and it took a long time for MS to address it. That was a huge blackeye. Finally when they did come around, they did the right thing... and RROD of course is history.

SNES color fading? Really? You're gonna harp about UV color and heat fading? At least pick on something impactful.. like the sheathing on the controller cords pulling out of the controllers.. something that happened to both NES and SNES generations.

Wii overpriced? It was half the price of the PS3 and $100 cheaper than the 360. Controllers for the 360 or PS3 aren't any cheaper really. The difference is on a Wii there is a REASON to have 3-4 controllers...

 

[ParentsOf4]

I do think they are well founded. I'm sure he is aware of these things at least in a general way at one level or another. He does walk the properties.

Assuming these quality issues did not occur overnight, what do you believe are the sources of these quality issues?

 

[Darth Sidious]

I'd love to see a Walt/Roy "Creative vs. Fiscal" team versus just looking at one guy. I'd love to see Lassiter or even Lucas if he would do it, be a visionary that could be tempered by a Staggs or someone like Frank Wells was. Art and Commerce. Eisner/Wells was magic and it worked, like Walt and Roy. I'd love to see (fat chance) a partnership management with lots of fighting, vision, and a dash of fiscal temperance, enabling the company to have some reasonable risk going on. Too often, large Corporations become "large beasts" that seek their own food and do so in the safest harbors (Apple is becoming this). You need the "Big Game Hunters" out there hunting for sport rather than mere survival, and that's what the Lucas or Lassiter types represent to slow moving beasts. a big trophy is a bigger win than a chicken dinner. the corporation just wants lots of chicken dinners and will look for larger chickens. No one needs a mounted Zebra head, but it's illogical, cool and they hunt for it anyway. The iPhone, iPad and other innovations like iPod are not products of typical corporate process, but the result of personal instinct, vision and leadership and are "Gamechangers". That is what Disney was built on. Disneyland was the iPhone of Amusement Parks, was the result of a personal vision in spite of the corporate appetite (to stay in film) and invented, like the iPad, it's own product category called the theme park. Partnerships keep the "Big Game Hunters" from either being "eaten" by their prey or "running out of bullets", as the "bad cop" fiscal guy reins them in from themselves and their egos. Wells could humble Eisner when his ideas were dumb, Roy fought with Walt or found the money. Balance with high creativity seems to me like the best way to proceed. I root for partnerships.

If I could like that post more than once I would. I agree 100% and I personally would like Lasseter and Staggs. I think both of them would do an excellent job together.

 

[Darth Sidious]

I do think they are well founded. I'm sure he is aware of these things at least in a general way at one level or another. He does walk the properties.

As I posted before, I do think there is only so much money you can justify spending each year in any one area and they have to prioritize over time. Like an Emergency Room,, there were some trauma patients (DCA) bleeding on the table that they had to save first. They proved to me that they will spend heavily on good projects and Carsland and even Nemo both stand up as well funded jobs. Even the DCA makeover is not complete, and they are plussing it. The results are there and so DL will likely be next. Bob pushed for and wrote the check himself for the restoration of DL for the 50th. That was a big rehab. I'm sure the MK will get plussed if the New FL is a success. That project seems to be well done and rich in detail, so the tradition seems to be more in the do it right,versus doing less.

Personally, Bob Iger is impeccable and meticulous in how he does things. He is not and does not appreciate anything sloppy. That's why I think he supports and will eventually support things being made right as it become possible within the grand priorities he has to deal with. WDW is a big property and it's within the priorities of all of the parks, some like DLP, that are in far worse shape. Bob just reorganized that problem fiscally so they can make a better difference and have more of a free hand to fix it, even in a horrid collapsing economy.

Bob also was wise to spend in the down economic moments. In 2008 and 09 he was writing checks to redo DCA while contractors were hungry, but profits were slim. Lesser CEOs would beg off and hibernate. He threw a "party" and got the work going. It paid off. Bob Iger's legacy is not about him being on TV, but rather fixing the past while laying a massive foundation for the future with all of these creative brand acquisitions. Remember he was dissed big time by being called a "nice guy" that had little ability to run the company, and he has shown those doubters to be dead wrong.

You know I wish I could take back my post being slightly critical of Bob. I just remembered an interview he had with Bloomberg where they rode RSR and he actually noticed a glitch in the ride. He asked the interviewer if he had noticed it and if he saw anything else because he'd like to get it fixed. So your characterization of him having an eye for detail is truly illustrated in that interview.

http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2012-08-09/bob-iger-on-disney-california-adventure

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Assuming these quality issues did not occur overnight, what do you believe are the sources of these quality issues?

It's hard to say.

There are many possible reasons, some of which can be poor design or cost cutting in construction, improper maintenance processes, deferring maintenance, understaffing, guest abuse, and more.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

You know I wish I could take back my post being slightly critical of Bob. I just remembered an interview he had with Bloomberg where they rode RSR and he actually noticed a glitch in the ride. He asked the interviewer if he had noticed it and if he saw anything else because he'd like to get it fixed. So your characterization of him having an eye for detail is truly illustrated in that interview.

http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2012-08-09/bob-iger-on-disney-california-adventure

Thanks for that article, I'd not seen it. There are things I'm sure to be critical about, but I think his basic intent is to be a long term thinking CEO, which is refreshing.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

And that all reminds me very much of your plan to unify Pirates, Mansion and Tom Sawyer Island through Jean Lafitte. I can definitely see the angle from which you were approaching the idea. It would've been a brilliant way to expand the "underworld" of NOS.

I guess I just love that theme so much I was hoping for an opportunity to continue it in some way. The Mark Twain riverboat is such a natural connection to New Orleans, but it wasn't that much of a stretch to take that idea to the other shoreline. Most of the Lafitte Island took place in underground earth structures so it didn't conflict with bear country or any of those other elements. You would not see pirate masts and all kinds of obvious stuff like that. I suppose I'm as guilty as anyone for trying to indulge my own interests so I can get paid to see them get built! Maybe someday I'll get do a Lafitte's Restaurant to put next to all those RainForest Café's!

 

[Cosmic Commando]

I guess I just love that theme so much I was hoping for an opportunity to continue it in some way. The Mark Twain riverboat is such a natural connection to New Orleans, but it wasn't that much of a stretch to take that idea to the other shoreline. Most of the Lafitte Island took place in underground earth structures so it didn't conflict with bear country or any of those other elements. You would not see pirate masts and all kinds of obvious stuff like that. I suppose I'm as guilty as anyone for trying to indulge my own interests so I can get paid to see them get built! Maybe someday I'll get do a Lafitte's Restaurant to put next to all those RainForest Café's!

No shame in that! There's that famous quote: Why did Walt build Disneyland? Because he wanted one.