Eddie Sotto's take on the current state of the parks (Part II)

[Otamin]

A bit off-topic, but I do find it sad how much land Disney has gotten rid of at WDW, and they're only going to get rid of more.

Of course it's good to focus on what they already have, but even so.

I remember reading they now only have space to make 1 major park and 2 little parks, or something like that.

 

[stevehousse]

Can anyone back up otomin?

 

[Pixiedustmaker]

Can anyone back up otomin?

It is true that Disney has sold some land on the periphery, but overall it looks like a small amount. A good chunk of WDW will remained undeveloped, but that's ok b/c most of it is unsuitable for development anyway.

There is a large tract of suitable land directly east of the Magic Kingdom parking lot, plus a lot of suitable land to the west of the Magic Kingdom. Both of these plots could easily hold a Magic Kingdom sized park, and conveniently, they are close to either the TTC, or the MK's monorail station, plus all the Seven Seas Lagoon resorts. So given that these two chunks could hold a MK, or even something bigger, I'd say the information above isn't exactly accurate, though it would take a while to get *two* other gates.

In terms of logistics, I'd put my money on enlarging the Magic Kingdom's parking lot/TTC, and building east of this as they've already got the roadways going into this area.

 

[CptnSkippy]

I remember reading they now only have space to make 1 major park and 2 little parks, or something like that.

Have you ever looked at google earth or satellite views of Walt Disney World? There is room to put in anything they could possibly want. While some of that is earmarked for conservation/undesirable for building, there's still plenty of space to work with.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Who determines the length of a queue?[/B] Has there ever been a point where you refuse to give up anymore square footage in the allotted expansion pad to give to the queue?

I admit I'm always a little perplexed about the queue accolades. The original Pirates of the Caribbean ride barely has a queue, and I think it is perfect that way. There's so much effort put into theming the environment, use the park as the queue.

Not sure what does the determining factors are now, but in my day you used linear square footage allotments against the capacity of the ride and chose a number for the acceptable wait, like 20 minutes for a C ride or an hour for an E. All pre fast pass.

So let's say your queue was 4 feet wide and you decide that you were going to generously allow 16 square feet per person, then you can figure out how many people fit in your queue. Then given that the show does 2000 an hour you'll know how fast the line can move based on the number of people in it. Operations weighs in on what is acceptable. You also look at shade requirements.

POTC at DL also had a substantial outdoor queue which was a number of switchbacks to the left of the building that is now occupied by Indiana Jones, but it did have one that worked out to about 45 minutes.

Indy's queue was borne of necessity as the show building had to be outside of the berm, so it's long and today is pulsed through because of fast pass.

 

[flynnibus]

Have you ever looked at google earth or satellite views of Walt Disney World? There is room to put in anything they could possibly want. While some of that is earmarked for conservation/undesirable for building, there's still plenty of space to work with.

I encourage you to find the Reedy Creek overall development plans and master planning. It has maps showing what areas are suitable for development and what areas are set aside for conservation. You will find far more of the property is actually set aside to NOT be developed then you might think.

 

[flynnibus]

Have you ever looked at google earth or satellite views of Walt Disney World? There is room to put in anything they could possibly want. While some of that is earmarked for conservation/undesirable for building, there's still plenty of space to work with.

Side back and enjoy the RCID information on future land use..
http://www.rcid.org/uploads/Future Land Use Element.pdf

 

[Pixiedustmaker]

Indy's queue was borne of necessity as the show building had to be outside of the berm, so it's long and today is pulsed through because of fast pass.

It is interesting how a lot of queue and ride decisions were made by necessity, but greatly improved the overall attraction in terms of aesthetics.

1. HM’s elevator to lower guests to get under the berm, a popular part of the overall experience.
2. Pirates grotto scenes, waterfall plunges.
3. Indy long queue, even with FP, and when waits are low, you still experience a whole of theming before you hit the ride vehicles, which always seem to build the suspense.
4. Alice’s outdoor section to get guests to the second floor of the combined Toad/Alice showbuilding.
5. Lack of berm around DCA, maybe helped get Carsland OK’d given how the Cadillac Mountain range is a sort of berm where none existed.

 

[Pixiedustmaker]

Side back and enjoy the RCID information on future land use..
http://www.rcid.org/uploads/Future Land Use Element.pdf

Thanks for the info as it can clear up some questions folks have,

The report mentions that Epcot and Magic Kingdom have more expansion area than DHS (infill and redevelopment), unless you look at expanding DHS across World Drive somehow:

Both Epcot and the Magic Kingdom may expand through infill and intensification of previously developed areas. Disney’s Hollywood Studios has a potential expansion area west of the theme park although the area is located across World Drive from the existing attractions. Animal Kingdom has substantial room within its existing boundaries for additional attractions. There are also several undeveloped sites within the District that are large enough for an entirely new theme park. Although Table 2-1 (Maximum Development 2010-2020) allows for development of one major and two minor theme parks there are no plans under review. Approximately 591 acres would be required for these uses.

This is where this talk of one major and two minor theme parks comes from, that for 2010-2020, they are demonstrating that they have thought out the expansion of WDW over the next ten years and that they *could* add both a major theme park and two minor ones, under "Maximum Development Scenario." In fact, they could add two major theme parks, maybe more, if they wanted to spend the $$ to develop marginally suitable land and did over a longer time frame.

The report also talks about how attendance overall is growing only one percent per year, instead of the 2% in decades past.

I mention the DHS info as it would be very hard to build Carsland at DHS, it is surrounded by unsuitable land on one side, parking lot on the other, roadways and Fantasmic's lagoon on the north, and World Drive on the west side and the suitable land is on the other side of World Drive. Very expensive to move such a major roadway.

I think post Avatarland, the next big move would be to build in the site east of the Magic Kingdom parking lot (alluded to in this report). Radiator Springs could work great as the Main Street of this new park, IMHO, the Cadillac Mountain Range could be the wennie! And you've got material from Disney Seas that could be worked into this park. If they start building in 2016-7, they could have it open for the 50th anniversary.

 

[Cosmic Commando]

I mention the DHS info as it would be very hard to build Carsland at DHS, it is surrounded by unsuitable land on one side, parking lot on the other, roadways and Fantasmic's lagoon on the north, and World Drive on the west side and the suitable land is on the other side of World Drive. Very expensive to move such a major roadway.

Once upon a time, people just had to fit things into the space they had. Strange that you mention this as they fit Carsland into the tiny DLR, surrounded by public roadways that they had no option of moving. Photoshop overlays show that they can fit it into DHS with a little imagination removing some attractions that few will miss.

 

[Pixiedustmaker]

Once upon a time, people just had to fit things into the space they had. Strange that you mention this as they fit Carsland into the tiny DLR, surrounded by public roadways that they had no option of moving. Photoshop overlays show that they can fit it into DHS with a little imagination removing some attractions that few will miss.

Theoretically, if the cadillac mountain range of Carsland was pushed into the southwest corner of DHS, then this would involve taking out the backlot tour, LMA, 1/4 to 1/3 of New York street, cutting into Toy Story Mania, and a bit of the land for Honey I Shrunk the Audience and going up right next to the Muppets, in Carsland's present configuration.

However, if New York Street was extended to become the main street of Radiator Springs, and if they sort of built in a "U" Carslands up around the backlot tour, they would technically have enough space, but, you'd only have one entrance to Carsland, AND half of Carsland would be behind backstage areas to the west of Pixar Place. They'd have to demolish the backstage areas so that you'd have two entrances, but then the backstage area would be cut-off from the outside of the park, to say nothing of the extra cost involved. And the remaining backstage buildings would be an eyesore as they'd be right up against Carsland. Trees and greenery could be used, though with buildings that close, it would be hard to hide.

Plus, Luigi's would be moved away from its current location to the narrow part of the "U", thus changing the layout of Radiator Springs somewhat. This is a problem, IMHO, b/c Radiator Springs has a well defined layout based on the films.

Could be done, but they don't have the room to build Radiator Springs like it is in DCA, IMHO, and they'd have to do a whole lot more work than in DCA as Carsland was essentially a parking lot before construction, plus they'd probably have to demolish a whole section of backstage area and build an underground access road for trucks.

Possible, but it would cost more than DCA's version, might even be a tad bit smaller, possibly wouldn't have the "correct" RS layout, and you'd lose a backstage building or two, plus LMA and the backlot tram.

Wouldn't be impossible, but would be much more difficult than what was done in DCA. DCA's Carsland destroyed only a parking lot, in DHS, were talking about destroying two attractions, who despite current popularity, can always be refreshed at a fraction of the cost of tearing them down and building a new land. Yes, they tore down Sunshine Plaza at DCA, but Catastrophe Canyon and LMA are a lot more expensive.

Plus, the company concluded that DHS's possible expansion would be west of World Drive, no re-development and infill like in Epcot where they've got unused land for pavillions.

 

[ChrisFL]

I honestly don't see the space issue you guys are seeing with CarsLand

This is just a quick example I drew up, taking out the LMA and backlot tour but most of the other stuff would still be there. Re-arrange a few buildings on the lower end of CarsLand and it would fit

 

[flynnibus]

And you're including things that aren't actually part of Carsland.. like the long rectangle at the top is the parade storage building.

I don't think space is the issue.. they can adapt if needed.

 

[Pixiedustmaker]

I honestly don't see the space issue you guys are seeing with CarsLand

This is just a quick example I drew up, taking out the LMA and backlot tour but most of the other stuff would still be there. Re-arrange a few buildings on the lower end of CarsLand and it would fit

You cut-off Radiator Springs at the Cozy Cone! There is more, i.e. Mater's and Filmore . . . if you had this stuff, it would go about to where the "N" is in the word New York on your map. Plus, the stuff on the left hangs over into the roadway's shoulder/drainage area.

As you can see, your overlay demolishes one backstage building, and you had to build a walkway for the second entrance somewhere around here, likely necessitating the demolishment of more of the backstage street and other backstage areas, but could be done to connect with the Pixar Place area. Of course, this is assuming Carsland's current configuration.

 

[FrankLapidus]

I don't really see the issue either, Disney will presumably have plans in place to deal with any concerns over the placement of Carsland that have been brought up here.

 

[ChrisFL]

You cut-off Radiator Springs at the Cozy Cone! There is more, i.e. Mater's and Filmore . . . if you had this stuff, it would go about to where the "N" is in the word New York on your map. Plus, the stuff on the left hangs over into the roadway.

As you can see, your overlay demolishes one backstage building, and you had to build a walkway for the second entrance somewhere around here, likely necessitating the demolishment of the backstage street and other backstage areas. Of course, this is assuming Carsland's current configuration.

Ah, I see what I missed....oops.

I guess it would help if I had been to Carsland in person, but haven't been there yet.

 

[Pixiedustmaker]

Ah, I see what I missed....oops.

I guess it would help if I had been to Carsland in person, but haven't been there yet.

It's kinda hard to pick out stuff from a satellite photo taken during construction. Radiator Springs is awesome, and the main roadway doesn't feel too long, kinda short actually when compared to street like Main Street, if they took out Mater's & Filmore it would make it easier to fit, but it would feel more like a "plaza" than a street.

They could fit the whole Carsland, but they have to construct outside of DCA Carsland's foot print for building walkways, assuming same configuration. Can't seem them building the place with just one entrance as it gets pretty crowded with the three entrances in DCA. Backlot Express would have to, and they'd have to somehow make it work with New York Street, probably with a lot of plants to disguise the entrance.

 

[Pixiedustmaker]

I don't really see the issue either, Disney will presumably have plans in place to deal with any concerns over the placement of Carsland that have been brought up here.

I think the issue, i.e. losing LMA, Backlot Tour, Backlot Express and a couple backstage buildings and building an entrance pathway to Pixar Place is that the company would essentially be tearing down a good chunk of DHS that had already been built. This would raise construction costs, i.e. tearing down a lot of expensive stuff. And given that they would have to move backstage areas for DHS (I don't know where DHS doesn't have much space), I would guesstimate it would raise the price of construction maybe $100 million (including the cost of demolition of 12 blocks), adding from $600 million to $700 million.

Carsland at DCA was built on a parking lot, nothing in terms of attractions was lost. Even when they closed Superstar Limo at DCA, they didn't tear down the building, they repurposed it into Monsters Inc.

To get the biggest bang for the buck, I think the company would decide to build Carsland somewhere else, i.e. an empty lot (a much cheaper proposition). Then they'd have attractions at DHS which could be plussed, (and which still "eat" guests), plus the draw of Carsland. In the report linked above, the company says that they wouldn't decide to expand within DHS, presumably as this would require tearing down areas already built up and which represent a prior investment.

 

[FrankLapidus]

But like you say, you're guesstimating here. Disney will have a budget in mind for Carsland and will have taken into account the cost of demolishing anything that has to go to make way for any eventual construction.

 

[Pixiedustmaker]

But like you say, you're guesstimating here. Disney will have a budget in mind for Carsland and will have taken into account the cost of demolishing anything that has to go to make way for any eventual construction.

Of course. But besides the cost of demolishing rides, eateries, and buildings in DHS, this would also reduce the capacity of DHS for maybe 3 years. DCA's suffered no such reduction in capacity because Carsland was built on a parking lot. So, $50 to $100 million for the difficulty of building Carsland in DHS, plus the loss of maybe 1.5 million guests each year to DHS for three years, that would be a total of maybe 4.5 million guests lost over three years, and if they disney makes 100 bucks off of each guests . . . you're talking about a lot of money.

Frankly, I can see why it would be cheaper, and a better long term option. to build on DHS's designated expansion lot west of World Drive. They could do it without ripping out part of a park that is making money, and when this expansion is finished, they'd have more rides. Even if it costs 100's of millions moving World Drive, might be about the same or cheaper when you talk about shutting down 1/4 of DHS for three years.

How much does it cost to move a freeway? I'm thinking hundreds of millions, but you can see why this is the preset expansion plan. Folks who know more about the issue at the company already thought this out.

That being said, Carsland would probably be $800 million at DHS, at least, if they do either option, probably less with expanding west of World Drive. You can why the report hints at expanding AK with tons of land inside the park ready to go.

It would actually be cheaper to build Carsland east of the Magic Kingdom parking lot in the massive expansion pad, of course they'd have to build more for a half-day park, but at least they save hundreds of millions in costs when it comes to moving a major roadway, plus there is room for parking lot expansion there.