Eddie Sotto's take on the current state of the parks (Part II)

[Eddie Sotto]

Anyway, for those of us who want to discuss futuristic Progress City style urban planning, here's something interesting from Sweden, an urban area which utilizes space so that you have cycling paths and walk-ways in a high density city block.

Interesting concept, IMHO, I'm sure that creative types, like Eddie, could figure out how to make such a project even more beautiful, and/or how to incorporate such a design into a theme park resort.

I've always liked bucolic areas of WDW, like the Norway pavilion, and think it would be nice to have a hotel room in such an area, only the presence of thousands of other guests is intrusive in a way. Maybe such a design could be used to, in a way allow thousands of guests at a resort to experience a naturalistic setting without being continually aware of the fact they are in a hotel. I could see such a green space design being used for an Animal Kingdom type resort such that you mostly see hills and greenery, instead of just a massive hotel.

http://inhabitat.com/new-heden-by-kjellgren-kaminsky-architects/

I like it.This is great in a unique way. Could you imagine making a fortune mowing lawns as a kid! Just put a coaster on those hills!

 

[Pixiedustmaker]

I like it.This is great in a unique way. Could you imagine making a fortune mowing lawns as a kid! Just put a coaster on those hills!

LOL, yeah, a teenager could make a fortune mowing those hills.

They could also put little paved roads down the hills and hold elaborate soap box derby races there. And this is from Sweden, imagine what happens when it snows . . .

 

[unkadug]

Imagine the lawsuits when someone falls off the side of these hills.

 

[Californian Elitist]

The trailer for the Lone Ranger is up. The film looks pretty realistic, even gritty. I think it will be a big hit on the scale of the Pirate movies, IMHO. Will we get a Lone Ranger themed ride in DLR?

This is the current hot topic with Disneyland folk over on MiceChat. Oh, and an expansion. There are rumors of a Lone Ranger attraction and an Oz Land. Highly doubt we'd get both, but I'm hoping for the Lone Ranger attraction. I agree, this looks like a money-maker.

 

[RSoxNo1]

A little off topic, but just noticed that the signage for the Mermaid ride is kind of . . . gruesome. They've got Ariel tacked up on the front of a shipwreck, almost in a crucified manner as the wooden masts of the shipwreck look almost like a cross. Plus, this was how Ariel's mom died . . . she got smashed between a ship and some rocks on the coast! I get it from an artistic viewpoint, I guess, if you want to equate Ariel with wooden women nailed on the front of ships, but you can bet that little girls will wonder if Ariel is stuck or hurt, given how she looks.

Ariel, the young mermaid sitting on a rock looking at Eric's ship is Ariel's story, this monstrosity reduces Ariel to a generic mermaid, a smiling unaware bimbo tacked on the front of a shipwreck, oblivious to the world around her because she is reduced to an inanimate object.

I bet if you took a picture of Ariel face on, you could get a shot that looks like she is up on the cross. Somebody tell me I'm crazy, but this is just an awful artistic choice, I'd bet real money that the sign is removed and replaced with something less . . . offensive. Wonder if they'll realize that the thing on the balcony is a trellis which had vines on it in the film.

I think what it accomplishes here is that it makes the Little Mermaid look a bit more grand then it is. The exterior facade is awesome, and I'd think I'm going into Pirates of the Caribbean. I know you're not a fan of Mermaid, but I do like this facade as well as the signage. However, I don't know that it's representative of what you're going to find inside.

Eddie, I believe you told a story in the previous incarnation of this thread about the queue for Pooh's Hunny Hunt where it was intentionally made somewhat underwhelming so that guests would be surprised by the attraction within. Can you elaborate/clarify on that?

 

[Pixiedustmaker]

I think what it accomplishes here is that it makes the Little Mermaid look a bit more grand then it is. The exterior facade is awesome, and I'd think I'm going into Pirates of the Caribbean. I know you're not a fan of Mermaid, but I do like this facade as well as the signage. However, I don't know that it's representative of what you're going to find inside.

Eddie, I believe you told a story in the previous incarnation of this thread about the queue for Pooh's Hunny Hunt where it was intentionally made somewhat underwhelming so that guests would be surprised by the attraction within. Can you elaborate/clarify on that?

I agree with most of this. ^

I'm a big fan of the Little Mermaid film, and while the queue for MK's Mermaid is certainly "lavish" in terms of a lot of the details, 100% agree that it is more like Pirates than a Fantasyland ride. Might be the first attraction that has such an elaborate queue that guests expect something grander, or maybe more realistic? I mean, the attraction itself doesn't use this level of realism and is more "cartoonish".

I wanted more of a storybook facade, and I think they should have moved the showbuilding back as you've got a feeling you're in a cavern due to the disguised massive showbuilding. I think they shot themselves in the foot by using one of the old walls of the 22K Leagues Under the Sea showbuilding, if they expanded back, it would have left room for a bigger 7DMT, or whatever else they might have added in the future.

 

[lazyboy97o]

I like it.This is great in a unique way. Could you imagine making a fortune mowing lawns as a kid! Just put a coaster on those hills!

LOL, yeah, a teenager could make a fortune mowing those hills.

They could also put little paved roads down the hills and hold elaborate soap box derby races there. And this is from Sweden, imagine what happens when it snows . . .

BIG architects have a few projects with multifunctional stairs that double as a roof or wall for something below. There are large steps for sitting, normal steps for walking and then the last extreme is no steps, often shown as a slide or sled run if its an area where it snows.

 

[Pixiedustmaker]

This is the current hot topic with Disneyland folk over on MiceChat. Oh, and an expansion. There are rumors of a Lone Ranger attraction and an Oz Land. Highly doubt we'd get both, but I'm hoping for the Lone Ranger attraction. I agree, this looks like a money-maker.

Which expansion?

1.The Tomorrowland expansion they are running by guests with questionnaires this week?
2.The expansion of Main Street to the east?
3.The massive Frontierland expansion starting up near Critter Country, taking out Westsider Grill and back stage areas like Circle D and expanding all the way around to Big Thunder Ranch? (I like the idea of walking from Pooh to the Big Thunder area the long way around the river, having a Lone Ranger ride would be a great weenie). Or maybe just a first stage part of this expansion?
4.The removal of Fantasyland Theatre in five or so years to build perhaps a 7DMT clone or Brave ride with a BoG clone?

Not sure which expansion you're talking about as I'm not really up on these things.

 

[RSoxNo1]

I agree with most of this. ^

I'm a big fan of the Little Mermaid film, and while the queue for MK's Mermaid is certainly "lavish" in terms of a lot of the details, 100% agree that it is more like Pirates than a Fantasyland ride. Might be the first attraction that has such an elaborate queue that guests expect something grander, or maybe more realistic? I mean, the attraction itself doesn't use this level of realism and is more "cartoonish".

I wanted more of a storybook facade, and I think they should have moved the showbuilding back as you've got a feeling you're in a cavern due to the disguised massive showbuilding. I think they shot themselves in the foot by using one of the old walls of the 22K Leagues Under the Sea showbuilding, if they expanded back, it would have left room for a bigger 7DMT, or whatever else they might have added in the future.

The Seas with Nemo and Friends is also a much grander queue then the attraction. I like the attraction, but the queue is for a D/E-ticket not a C ticket

 

[Pixiedustmaker]

The Seas with Nemo and Friends is also a much grander queue then the attraction. I like the attraction, but the queue is for a D/E-ticket not a C ticket

I do love the queue for Nemo and Friends, maybe even a tad bit more than the ride. Nice subtle effect where you feel like you're walking along the beach and then under the ocean. Does Nemo and Friends' queue oversell the attraction? The Living Seas Pavilion was always pretty impressive, IMHO, and Nemo is part of this, but it is just a gussied up omnimover and projections, though it does have some good effects.

Sometimes, the queue undersells the ride, like Pirates in DL, which uses the surrounds of New Orleans Square and then a dock, though you do see a sliver of the Blue Bayou from the load area.

Given that sometimes a ride might underwhelm, maybe it is a good idea that rides like Nemo and Mermaid in WDW have these extensive queues, which often times is the most memorable part of a visit.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Eddie, I believe you told a story in the previous incarnation of this thread about the queue for Pooh's Hunny Hunt where it was intentionally made somewhat underwhelming so that guests would be surprised by the attraction within. Can you elaborate/clarify on that?

Sure. Since the big "wow" of Pooh was the fact that the vehicles were trackless and had the ability to spin, roam and move in any direction, I wanted to reveal those things over time. In turn, managing expectations by making the queue and even the load area on par with the other tracked dark rides of that genre. Instead of building a grandiose facade that over-promises, we hid the show building behind the "100 Acre wood" forest and did an open storybook where, like the Pooh stories, everything takes place between the pages. You see other guests in the open illustration entering the story. This later pays off as the narrative scene changes in the ride itself.
Keeping the queue abstract and simple you wait between oversized pages once inside the story, then finally arrive at the typical massive mural with a long strand of vehicles in front of it (as if the ride is on tracks). Once dispatched, the cars all separate and group themselves magically in front of a page that comes "alive", (setting up the "hunny hunt" premise) and then the pages part and the show begins.

Here's someone's video.

 

[Californian Elitist]

Which expansion?

1.The Tomorrowland expansion they are running by guests with questionnaires this week?
2.The expansion of Main Street to the east?
3.The massive Frontierland expansion starting up near Critter Country, taking out Westsider Grill and back stage areas like Circle D and expanding all the way around to Big Thunder Ranch? (I like the idea of walking from Pooh to the Big Thunder area the long way around the river, having a Lone Ranger ride would be a great weenie). Or maybe just a first stage part of this expansion?
4.The removal of Fantasyland Theatre in five or so years to build perhaps a 7DMT clone or Brave ride with a BoG clone?

Not sure which expansion you're talking about as I'm not really up on these things.

I'm talking about an expansion for the entire resort. Where another park could go, hotels, a parking lot, etc..

 

[RSoxNo1]

Sure. Since the big "wow" of Pooh was the fact that the vehicles were trackless and had the ability to spin, roam and move in any direction, I wanted to reveal those things over time. In turn, managing expectations by making the queue and even the load area on par with the other tracked dark rides of that genre. Instead of building a grandiose facade that over-promises, we hid the show building behind the "100 Acre wood" forest and did an open storybook where, like the Pooh stories, everything takes place between the pages. You see other guests in the open illustration entering the story. This later pays off as the narrative scene changes in the ride itself.
Keeping the queue abstract and simple you wait between oversized pages once inside the story, then finally arrive at the typical massive mural with a long strand of vehicles in front of it (as if the ride is on tracks). Once dispatched, the cars all separate and group themselves magically in front of a page that comes "alive", (setting up the "hunny hunt" premise) and then the pages part and the show begins.

Here's someone's video.

Awesome, thanks for sharing.

 

[Cosmic Commando]

The Seas with Nemo and Friends is also a much grander queue then the attraction. I like the attraction, but the queue is for a D/E-ticket not a C ticket

I'd say the queue is F-ticket long with nice D-ticket details. The beach/sea transition that everyone likes is accomplished in the first 25 ft of queue; the other 1/4 mi of unused switchbacks is mostly undersea darkness.

 

[Cosmic Commando]

I wanted more of a storybook facade, and I think they should have moved the showbuilding back as you've got a feeling you're in a cavern due to the disguised massive showbuilding. I think they shot themselves in the foot by using one of the old walls of the 22K Leagues Under the Sea showbuilding, if they expanded back, it would have left room for a bigger 7DMT, or whatever else they might have added in the future.

Remember that when they started construction they thought they were putting in the two M&G houses. Also, I think any perceived shortcomings of 7DMT (it won't even open for a year; give it time) are due to budget more than space. The hill will already block the Mermaid facade if you're standing on the other side of the castle walls looking into New Fantasyland... they probably could have just gone taller to add in more coaster and/or show scenes.

 

[Pixiedustmaker]

. . . Since the big "wow" of Pooh was the fact that the vehicles were trackless and had the ability to spin, roam and move in any direction, I wanted to reveal those things over time. . . .

Wow, thanks for explaining all of that! Tokyo's Pooh is awesome technically and from an artistic viewpoint, and it is nice that the facade doesn't feel the need to advertise, which may detract from the reality the queue is trying to sell.

I was really impressed by how the transitions in the queue were handled:

1. Guests first see the large storybook which is also intimate and charming and you instantly start thinking about the story.
2. Then you have a transition to what looks like a Japanese formal garden, though it is obviously a garden where a gardener is working, maybe somebody's private garden.
3. Then you enter something like a greenhouse.
4. Then guests transition into a room which looks like a gardener’s shed as you've got tools and plants, and you’ve got the map of the 100 acre woods on the wall, and in another corner some of Christopher Robin’s toys, and then some signs including “Pooh’s Thoughtful Spot”.

Not sure what the back-story for the gardener is, (if there is one), but the whole queue leads me to imagine a boy who's parents have a garden and greenhouse, (and I guess a whole 100 acre woods), and he sort of invents this world of animals which talk, and makes his own map of the garden and woods. And maybe when he is grown-up, his parents store his toys in the gardener's shed, and we relive his childhood through the books.

Anyway, it was a nice juxtaposition having the tools of adult's work, i.e. garden tools, next to the tools of childrens' work, i.e. play and imagination. And with the rest of the queue being the "space between the pages", the whole queue is more a celebration of imagination than a line.

For whatever reason, these transitions before you hit the pages in the book seem to work really well.

 

[choco choco]

Who determines the length of a queue? Has there ever been a point where you refuse to give up anymore square footage in the allotted expansion pad to give to the queue?

I admit I'm always a little perplexed about the queue accolades. The original Pirates of the Caribbean ride barely has a queue, and I think it is perfect that way. There's so much effort put into theming the environment, use the park as the queue.

 

[Pixiedustmaker]

Remember that when they started construction they thought they were putting in the two M&G houses. Also, I think any perceived shortcomings of 7DMT (it won't even open for a year; give it time) are due to budget more than space. The hill will already block the Mermaid facade if you're standing on the other side of the castle walls looking into New Fantasyland... they probably could have just gone taller to add in more coaster and/or show scenes.

Weren't the M&G houses supposed to be sort of castle-like? Anyway, it is interesting how you've got two castles in FLE. Obviously, the castle in Beauty & the Beast played a major role, and in Mermaid perhaps to a lesser extent. At some point, you get a little "castled out." Personally, I think that Eric's ship is a bit more iconic than his castle, and might have been more suited for the queue for an "underwater" ride.

With Snow White, the best of both world is getting to experience both the dark ride, and the 7DMT later at some point. I feel sorry for young kids on the east coast who might never travel to DLR, and won't get the dark ride experience, yet will get to experience 7DMT.

I think it would have been hard to make 7DMT's mountain too much bigger as it would blot the view of MK's big castle too much, and you would have felt like you're walk around the Matterhorn. My solution would have been to have the 7DMT enter greatly expanded rockwork around BoG, and perhaps have a show building hidden in the same building as BoG. Like maybe have the show scenes above the dining rooms/kitchens.

They'd probably have to build an elevated mine train bridge over walk-ways, unless it was subterranean and totally blocked from view.

I would have liked to see a plausible village where all of the characters have ties. You've got the Beast's castle, Belle Village, and Eric's ship docked at a port which is part of Belle's village and the Seven Dwarf's mine located in the mountains surrounding the Beast's castle. Right now, I kind of feel that Mermaid is the odd man out.

 

[Pixiedustmaker]

The original Pirates of the Caribbean ride barely has a queue, and I think it is perfect that way.

Though perhaps not physically long, Pirates queue accomplishes a lot in terms of storytelling and coaxing the audience into believing later scenes in the ride.

Pirates queue:

1. You start off in New Orleans Square. You might think of the historical context to Pirates, but certainly you aren't in the modern world.
2. Entrance below the dream suite. You've got the drawings of pirates on the walls, and the small parrot scene with the treasure map. You don't see the physical pirates, but in the modern world there is treasure maps and buried treasure, and these items still sought by treasure hunters in this day and age are physical links to the golden age of pirates.
3. Lafitte's landing/Blue Bayou. No evidence of Pirates, but you're subtly drawn back in time. Back to the age of clandestine docks, majest southern mansions, the bayou.

Later on, the ride starts with caverns and pirate skeletons, things still possibly in existence in today's world, and when you hit the Wicked Wench scene (I guess now Barbossa and the Black Pearl), you've already had pirates on the brain for a good amount of time, thanks in part to the queue.

It might be short, but Pirate's queue accomplishes a lot, IMHO, and what it accomplishes is critical to the believability of the ride itself.

 

[Pixiedustmaker]

Tokyo Pooh's LPS system is completely amazing, sad that over ten years later it hasn't been used in stateside parks. Wish they would have used it on Mermaid (maybe in a couple decades if they decide to re-do the ride), would have been awesome to have trackless and random movements inside of a massively detailed "Under the Sea" scene, or even just a scene with Ursula, could be kind of fun.

Imaging having an "Under the Sea" scene with a large "dance floor" for the LPS vehicles, with dozens of them weaving in and out about the seaweed/coral/sea animals and each other, the guests would feel like they were part of the whole big musical production. Now that would be an experience that would have garnered real re-rideability!