Eddie Sotto's take on the current state of the parks (Part II)

Eddie Sotto

Premium Member
I'm really loving the Tron:Uprising Cartoon. If you look at how Lucas has kept Star Wars alive by creating "Clone Wars" as a hit animated show, TU has done the formula one better and they spare no expense in making the show compelling and visually stunning. Check it out. http://disney.go.com/xd/tron/videos/?video=0_2nyk1k6g

BTW. "The Poster Art of the Disney Parks" book is on sale at WDW. Looks pretty cool in the Miceage update. I was interviewed for the book about the DLP Attraction posters and the authors were serious about adding lots of extras, works in progress,etc. Should be great and it covers all the park ride posters, even the ones that never got printed. Amazon has it for 25 preorder, but the park sells it for 40.
http://www.amazon.com/Poster-Disney...qid=1344004175&sr=8-2&keywords=disney+posters
 

Eddie Sotto

Premium Member
This sounds strange, but I'm reading this article on Holidayland, the least photographed land at Disneyland" (for good reason)

http://www.disneyhistoryinstitute.com/2012/04/holidayland-least-photographed-land-in.html

and it occurs to me that in many ways it was a metaphor of sorts for DCA 1.0. Designed to add cheap capacity (birthday parties and group parties) and extend stay, it features minor theming if any and seeks to leverage generic activities commonly found in the real world, like picnics, playgrounds, and the Circus. A very minor Disney overlay is added to the playground equipment and the Circus (via the Mouseketeers) and all you can drink beer is served. Rides the coattails of the brand and the big 5 characters are not really present there. Does not obey the sight lines and berming of the rest of the park. Compared to the other lands, it's insanely average and never catches on as it lacks the quality both asthetically and creatively found in the other "lands". I know that this is not a direct comparison, DCA was far more than a Circus, so I'm not saying that at all. DCA had theming and some good attractions. But at a very high level, they were both weak by comparison to the creative richness of the park that adjoined them. Just a thought. Adding the richness of Carsland and the BV street this year changed the tide of DCA, as adding Pirates in place of Holidayland returned that acreage to legend status at DL.
 

Eddie Sotto

Premium Member
If they had marketed this better I think this movie would have been a big hit.... I do hope that they do a sequel...the movie did do very well outside of the USA market where the Disney marketing did not apparently sabotage their own movie....

Out here in California I sometimes wonder about the marketing of the parks. There are lots of billboards showing Mater or Lightning McQueen with a tagline "You Auto swing by" or similar and a Carsland logo. Cute.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-1isgYaMxWbc/T9qB_u_q2uI/AAAAAAAAsmM/mMXdyAu0wQg/s1600/Mater Cars Land billboard.jpg

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-JNdlP2u5sxk/T9qB7ZE7nnI/AAAAAAAAsmE/BSeZyUXDFuM/s800/CarsLand entire family billboard.jpg

Look at the Nemo subs billboard. How many people would actually get that the 1959 Sub ride is back? How many Angelenos knew it left? Or that it's fun? "Toy Story Mania" looks like a direct to DVD movie ad.
http://farm2.staticflickr.com/1075/540376523_489198cae1.jpg
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3175/2909733615_62178c488c.jpg

Nothing about what we do there. The imagery seems too subtle when you are screaming by at 70 Mph. People see characters on a sign and think it's about the movie or a DVD. They need to explicitly show screaming guests in the Car racing another car of guests and show what you DO in Carsland. Universal does this way better with Transformers. It's all you. You can argue that they exaggerate so much you dismiss it, but Universal delivers the best rides in the business today.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-duK9J5tXj6I/T-vMZGcIH1I/AAAAAAAAtOY/LMDrhfTRPQY/s800/transformers ride billboard installation.jpg
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-_80h2r2K0-g/TixhosaJtJI/AAAAAAAAe-M/aEp7SYXuQmA/s800/KingKong+3D+ride+billboard.jpg

They show guests getting attacked in the vehicle so you get the fact that it's a cool ride. They made a huge mistake with this a few years back with Terminator 3D. Everyone assumed it was just a theater based movie, not an attraction and no one went. It's all about what is in it for you if you drive down there, and not just how cute the character is as that only works for families with small kids. You want the kids to beg the parents to go on the ride.

The recent Carsland TV ads show the ride and they are great. You say wow! I have to go do that.
 

flynnibus

Premium Member
great insights eddie..

I love the discussion about Holidayland and riding on the brand. Maybe there should be a simple litmus test... 'If this were done by one of our competitors, would we expect it to be successful? and be worried about it?'. If not, you are probably relying on your brand to sell it rather than the product itself :)
 

Californian Elitist

Well-Known Member
Out here in California I sometimes wonder about the marketing of the parks. There are lots of billboards showing Mater or Lightning McQueen with a tagline "You Auto swing by" or similar and a Carsland logo. Cute.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-1isgYaMxWbc/T9qB_u_q2uI/AAAAAAAAsmM/mMXdyAu0wQg/s1600/Mater Cars Land billboard.jpg

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-JNdlP2u5sxk/T9qB7ZE7nnI/AAAAAAAAsmE/BSeZyUXDFuM/s800/CarsLand entire family billboard.jpg

Look at the Nemo subs billboard. How many people would actually get that the 1959 Sub ride is back? How many Angelenos knew it left? Or that it's fun? "Toy Story Mania" looks like a direct to DVD movie ad.
http://farm2.staticflickr.com/1075/540376523_489198cae1.jpg
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3175/2909733615_62178c488c.jpg

Nothing about what we do there. The imagery seems too subtle when you are screaming by at 70 Mph. People see characters on a sign and think it's about the movie or a DVD. They need to explicitly show screaming guests in the Car racing another car of guests and show what you DO in Carsland. Universal does this way better with Transformers. It's all you. You can argue that they exaggerate so much you dismiss it, but Universal delivers the best rides in the business today.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-duK9J5tXj6I/T-vMZGcIH1I/AAAAAAAAtOY/LMDrhfTRPQY/s800/transformers ride billboard installation.jpg
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-_80h2r2K0-g/TixhosaJtJI/AAAAAAAAe-M/aEp7SYXuQmA/s800/KingKong+3D+ride+billboard.jpg

They show guests getting attacked in the vehicle so you get the fact that it's a cool ride. They made a huge mistake with this a few years back with Terminator 3D. Everyone assumed it was just a theater based movie, not an attraction and no one went. It's all about what is in it for you if you drive down there, and not just how cute the character is as that only works for families with small kids. You want the kids to beg the parents to go on the ride.

The recent Carsland TV ads show the ride and they are great. You say wow! I have to go do that.

As a native and local Angeleno, I can also say that Universal creates way better billboards than Disney, although I think the Cars Land billboards are awesome. They really do grab your attention in a great way. Just like Disneyland, Universal Studios Hollywood has its own fan following too (including me), so people are going to show up for new offerings, no matter what.
 

Eddie Sotto

Premium Member
If they had marketed this better I think this movie would have been a big hit.... I do hope that they do a sequel...the movie did do very well outside of the USA market where the Disney marketing did not apparently sabotage their own movie....
Given what they lost, I can't imagine them investing more in it.
 

HMF

Well-Known Member
Out here in California I sometimes wonder about the marketing of the parks. There are lots of billboards showing Mater or Lightning McQueen with a tagline "You Auto swing by" or similar and a Carsland logo. Cute.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-1isgYaMxWbc/T9qB_u_q2uI/AAAAAAAAsmM/mMXdyAu0wQg/s1600/Mater Cars Land billboard.jpg

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-JNdlP2u5sxk/T9qB7ZE7nnI/AAAAAAAAsmE/BSeZyUXDFuM/s800/CarsLand entire family billboard.jpg

Look at the Nemo subs billboard. How many people would actually get that the 1959 Sub ride is back? How many Angelenos knew it left? Or that it's fun? "Toy Story Mania" looks like a direct to DVD movie ad.
http://farm2.staticflickr.com/1075/540376523_489198cae1.jpg
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3175/2909733615_62178c488c.jpg

Nothing about what we do there. The imagery seems too subtle when you are screaming by at 70 Mph. People see characters on a sign and think it's about the movie or a DVD. They need to explicitly show screaming guests in the Car racing another car of guests and show what you DO in Carsland. Universal does this way better with Transformers. It's all you. You can argue that they exaggerate so much you dismiss it, but Universal delivers the best rides in the business today.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-duK9J5tXj6I/T-vMZGcIH1I/AAAAAAAAtOY/LMDrhfTRPQY/s800/transformers ride billboard installation.jpg
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-_80h2r2K0-g/TixhosaJtJI/AAAAAAAAe-M/aEp7SYXuQmA/s800/KingKong+3D+ride+billboard.jpg

They show guests getting attacked in the vehicle so you get the fact that it's a cool ride. They made a huge mistake with this a few years back with Terminator 3D. Everyone assumed it was just a theater based movie, not an attraction and no one went. It's all about what is in it for you if you drive down there, and not just how cute the character is as that only works for families with small kids. You want the kids to beg the parents to go on the ride.

The recent Carsland TV ads show the ride and they are great. You say wow! I have to go do that.
I have felt for a while that Disney has a really poor marketing department and that over the past decade has done major publicity damage to the brand. Between over-marketing to young children in lieu of adult audiences, The Princess Brand, Disney Channel, over-reliance on MAGICal catchphrases, Years of a Million Dreams, "Disney Parks" "One Disney' Re-naming Rapunzel to Tangled and of course more recently the "lets remove Walt's name and 's from everything initiative' and of course the John Carter debacle. WDI literally had to fight marketing over the name of the Toy Story "MIDWAY" Mania attraction and Marketing almost wrapped the new Disneyland Monorails when they debuted with promotional ads for the year of a million dreams".
 

Eddie Sotto

Premium Member
The interesting thing is that marketing is done by several departments. The Parks have one department, the films another. Films are positioned to a particular audience, so you get the trailers "spun" to attract who they think will show up to a film. The Studio has films they want to push, or an overall corporate initiative (dropping the "S") and everyone rallies around those brand stewards in corporate and have to allow for the premiere in the park, etc. They have to go after missing demographics that they are not getting at the parks and craft campaigns to get those folks. Campaigns get blessed by executives that are not marketers, and I've seen incredibly good programs lose out because they did not set well upstairs. (I'd actually take marketing's side on the word "midway", it seems too long). Tough job. If no one goes to your movie, you blame the marketing, and if it's a good movie then it sold itself. All I'm saying is that there are lots of "cooks" in the marketing "kitchen" and sometimes the best ideas don't always make it to the public. My company works in marketing and brand development and has even done work for Disney at times. Films and theme parks are sold differently. You have to presell the parks, as groups and families plan in long in advance, so it's a harder thing to do.

The philosophy at Sotto Studios is that the marketing people are not the enemy, in fact, you develop the product with them in mind. You want them involved, it would be stupid not to. In fact, it's the marketers that determine how much attendance your ride idea will attract, the "finger in the wind" that determines how much budget you can justify and if the show will get built at all! You need them to love what you propose and believe it will be something they can clearly communicate to the public. Will the public show up for Captain Nemo, Tron, or Avatar? They don't get a bonus for taking big risks with lesser known franchises for what rides cost today. It's a tough sell and you cannot blame them. They have lots of sway. Bob Iger still makes the final call. This opinion based phase has been the source of the occasional conflict between WDI and marketing over the years.

You also don't want to have them promising things the show cannot deliver. You need to see their issues with what you have up front. You may be wrong. There can be conflict, but that's ok. Work it out. After WDI won the battle for the longest name in history ("Indiana Jones and the Temple of the Forbidden Eye"), guests just say "let's go on the Indiana Jones Ride". Comes with the territory. This does not necessarily mean that you drive the idea from demographic data either, but you holistically grow the idea together in a way that their marketing is organic to the project and not an afterthought. The worst thing is that you spring it on them and they slap on a campaign that is completely discordant to what the show is. Usually the process works and they come up with great ideas, or you have a trust where you suggest fun things to them. Indiana Jones is a good example where the WDI team suggested decoder cards and stuff like that and they got ATT to pay for that. In the end, it's a commercial product that has to attract guests. Marketing people are generally very creative and helpful so you want to give them something to build on but they have marching orders too and you cannot deny that. Seamless promotion that that never feels like "selling" is what we're all after. I used to work directly with participant affairs to get the sponsors to kick in with fun show enhancements instead of just putting their name up everywhere. They love that if it's reasonable. On-board Audio Music was added to Space Mountain because of Fedex and drove the system to be on other rides. So you can make it all more coheasive.

As was said earlier, the new Carsland commercial on TV right now is really great. The characters are out there enjoying the land and rides to land our attention, and then you see guests like yourself having a ball on the rides. Perfect.
 

Eddie Sotto

Premium Member
As a native and local Angeleno, I can also say that Universal creates way better billboards than Disney, although I think the Cars Land billboards are awesome. They really do grab your attention in a great way. Just like Disneyland, Universal Studios Hollywood has its own fan following too (including me), so people are going to show up for new offerings, no matter what.

I'm a native Angeleno as well. Universal Billboards usually communicate mayhem, Disney says family. Both work well in that respect. I was only pointing out that the Disney boards assume that you know that the "Subs" were ever gone, or what Carsland is beyond a character, and if anything are a bit too subtle and can get confused with video game and movie billboards in the 3 seconds you have to read a freeway sign. In most situations, the majority of the DL audience is an AP who knows about the park so you can afford that, but on a freeway sign in LA, where the school district has 130 languages spoken, it's a melting pot and it may pay to be more graphically clear about what you are selling. You already have the AP's, it's the new money you are after.
 

BlueSkyDriveBy

Well-Known Member
Hey Eddie. First time poster here on WDWMagic, but long time fan of your work.

I was just wondering if you caught the Opening Ceremony for London 2012 and what you thought of it all, particularly the use of space and sound. Thanks.
 

Californian Elitist

Well-Known Member
I'm a native Angeleno as well. Universal Billboards usually communicate mayhem, Disney says family. Both work well in that respect. I was only pointing out that the Disney boards assume that you know that the "Subs" were ever gone, or what Carsland is beyond a character, and if anything are a bit too subtle and can get confused with video game and movie billboards in the 3 seconds you have to read a freeway sign. In most situations, the majority of the DL audience is an AP who knows about the park so you can afford that, but on a freeway sign in LA, where the school district has 130 languages spoken, it's a melting pot and it may pay to be more graphically clear about what you are selling. You already have the AP's, it's the new money you are after.

True. I always wonder that too. I wonder how many people have looked at attraction specific billboards, like Cars Land for example, and are totally clueless. Plenty of people move to LA everyday, not everyone is going to be in the know.

Speaking of LA, if we get that football team, getting to Universal is only going to get harder. And I wish the city would build a train station that goes straight to Disneyland. Have you experienced Transformers yet?
 

Eddie Sotto

Premium Member
Hey Eddie. First time poster here on WDWMagic, but long time fan of your work.

I was just wondering if you caught the Opening Ceremony for London 2012 and what you thought of it all, particularly the use of space and sound. Thanks.

Welcome BSDB! I've read you elsewhere and enjoy your writing. We're glad to have you. Love the Avatar!

I did see some of the opening and I thought it was all pretty interesting and quite breathtaking at times. The transitions from the Farm to the Industrial Revolution reminded me of something Baz Luhrmann (Moulin Rouge) would do. The Smokestacks rising and the flying Rings were also really dramatic and cool. They blended many different tracks at once and it must have been a wild sonic experience. It made me wonder why World Showcase could not do something more abstract...kind of multi cultural and yet historic to update Illuminations. I usually enjoy the openings as they raise the bar in one way or another. This one did so too. Thanks for asking. What did you like?
 

Eddie Sotto

Premium Member
The ride is amazing.

Have you heard about the high speed train that's supposed to go from LA to San Francisco? What do you think about that?

Sounds great. It's been compared to the great projects of the past. Usually those grand projects fill a critical need that was not filled previous. The Panama Canal and Golden Gate bridge were solutions that exclusively shortened the distance between two points and increased efficiency. They were solutions to problems. The train seems a bit more like an cool idea in search of an audience. It seems to me that most would still drive for less money directly to more places than SF or fly and arrive much sooner for likely less money. You still have to rent a car once you get to the station, so to me it does not seem like a solution that I would ever use. Others might.
I lived in France and took the TGV trains and they were great, but Airfare was insanely high for a short hop as the government controlled it. So the train was the better deal although still not cheap. I think people are more addicted to anything arriving sooner rather than later and will still fly. Sounds great, but for what it will cost, and what they will have to charge as it is not supposed to be subsidized by the government, I'm not sure of how many will actually ride it. Amtrak loses money on every soda and burger they sell. Time will tell, maybe we will look back and not be able to do without it!
 

Californian Elitist

Well-Known Member
Sounds great. It's been compared to the great projects of the past. Usually those grand projects fill a critical need that was not filled previous. The Panama Canal and Golden Gate bridge were solutions that exclusively shortened the distance between two points and increased efficiency. They were solutions to problems. The train seems a bit more like an cool idea in search of an audience. It seems to me that most would still drive for less money directly to more places than SF or fly and arrive much sooner for likely less money. You still have to rent a car once you get to the station, so to me it does not seem like a solution that I would ever use. Others might.
I lived in France and took the TGV trains and they were great, but Airfare was insanely high for a short hop as the government controlled it. So the train was the better deal although still not cheap. I think people are more addicted to anything arriving sooner rather than later and will still fly. Sounds great, but for what it will cost, and what they will have to charge as it is not supposed to be subsidized by the government, I'm not sure of how many will actually ride it. Amtrak loses money on every soda and burger they sell. Time will tell, maybe we will look back and not be able to do without it!

People are definitely always looking for ways to do things quicker. I myself would spend a hundred dollars to fly to Frisco from LA because I absolutely hate long drives. The train sounds really cool. Based on the price, if I saw it fit, I'd probably pay to ride the train once, for the experience. I don' think I could ever see it as a permanent solution to getting to Frisco from LA but it sounds like something I'd want to experience at least once. I'm more excited about the possibility of the city putting a streetcar in Downtown. Downtown, specifically the area around LA Live, straight down Figueroa street is starting to look really nice and a streetcar would be interesting, though it wouldn't travel far.
 

Eddie Sotto

Premium Member
People are definitely always looking for ways to do things quicker. I myself would spend a hundred dollars to fly to Frisco from LA because I absolutely hate long drives. The train sounds really cool. Based on the price, if I saw it fit, I'd probably pay to ride the train once, for the experience. I don' think I could ever see it as a permanent solution to getting to Frisco from LA but it sounds like something I'd want to experience at least once. I'm more excited about the possibility of the city putting a streetcar in Downtown. Downtown, specifically the area around LA Live, straight down Figueroa street is starting to look really nice and a streetcar would be interesting, though it wouldn't travel far.

Agree. I'd do it once with the family for the experience too. I like the Street Car idea for Downtown even better. The Red Streetcar at DCA is fun and I rode it once. It's better for the charm and kinetics it adds visually, like the Streetcar at the Grove Shopping Center. Been on that many times. A lot cheaper to build than a bullet train too!
 

Californian Elitist

Well-Known Member
Agree. I'd do it once with the family for the experience too. I like the Street Car idea for Downtown even better. The Red Streetcar at DCA is fun and I rode it once. It's better for the charm and kinetics it adds visually, like the Streetcar at the Grove Shopping Center. Been on that many times. A lot cheaper to build than a bullet train too!

Same here. I've yet to ride the Red Streetcar at DCA but I plan on doing it soon! I love the trolley at the Grove, though I admit I don't ride it as much as I used to when the Grove first opened. If my feet hurt for some reason and I want to go to Farmer's market then I'll ride it. Seriously! The cost for that train is so massive and apparently it's going to take close to twenty years? That's a very long time and I'm sure many people will forget about it by that time, including me.
 

Eddie Sotto

Premium Member
Same here. I've yet to ride the Red Streetcar at DCA but I plan on doing it soon! I love the trolley at the Grove, though I admit I don't ride it as much as I used to when the Grove first opened. If my feet hurt for some reason and I want to go to Farmer's market then I'll ride it. Seriously! The cost for that train is so massive and apparently it's going to take close to twenty years? That's a very long time and I'm sure many people will forget about it by that time, including me.

20 years is a long time and if you look at change, who would have seen the smartphone coming in 1992? I was touring Boeing some time ago and they are out there researching algae jet fuel and other cheaper, cleaner and naturally renewable alternatives to fossil fuels for planes. The only issue is how you can make enough of it to eventually fuel the whole industry. The military does not seem to be worried about that.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2010/feb/13/algae-solve-pentagon-fuel-problem
http://allaboutalgae.com/aviation-fuel/

Some interesting alternatives. In 20 years, who knows where technology will have taken that industry when the train arrives? Other than the random price fluctuation of fossil fuel caused by manipulation, Air travel by design is only getting more efficient (as it is privately competitive) with lighter carbon fiber fuselages (Dreamliner)
http://www.newairplane.com/787/design_highlights/#/home
and more efficient engines (A380), so pricing will likely be more competitive in the future. Rail travel seems the opposite (unless they do an algae powered Scumtrak express.) It's the hassle of security and packing in too many people that keep me from wanting to fly.
 

Californian Elitist

Well-Known Member
20 years is a long time and if you look at change, who would have seen the smartphone coming in 1992? I was touring Boeing some time ago and they are out there researching algae jet fuel and other cheaper, cleaner and naturally renewable alternatives to fossil fuels for planes. The only issue is how you can make enough of it to eventually fuel the whole industry. The military does not seem to be worried about that.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2010/feb/13/algae-solve-pentagon-fuel-problem
http://allaboutalgae.com/aviation-fuel/

Some interesting alternatives. In 20 years, who knows where technology will have taken that industry when the train arrives? Other than the random price fluctuation of fossil fuel caused by manipulation, Air travel by design is only getting more efficient (as it is privately competitive) with lighter carbon fiber fuselages (Dreamliner)
http://www.newairplane.com/787/design_highlights/#/home
and more efficient engines (A380), so pricing will likely be more competitive in the future. Rail travel seems the opposite (unless they do an algae powered Scumtrak express.) It's the hassle of security and packing in too many people that keep me from wanting to fly.

Amen. This is the first time I've heard of the algae fueled system. That would be really interesting!
 

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