Eddie Sotto's take on the current state of the parks (Part II)

[Eddie Sotto]

Out of the blue...

...the ocean blue that is.

Yo ho yo ho

The article even mentions Jean Lafitte in passing, and "a rather astonishing number of bottles."

Thanks for finding that! I'm now tracking the progress. Would love to know what else they find. Just say Jean Lafitte and I'm there!

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Castle on Main Street!

According to the book the Main Street Transportation co.s silhouette of Sleeping Beauty Castle at Disneyland. Is that just an authors interpretation or is that the designers intent.

It was a hidden thing I intentionally did and told no one. Anyone can knock out a little "Hidden Mickey", but a whole "Hidden Castle"? Go for it!

Tony Baxter was standing there looking at the whole block, a day or so before opening and I told him only then when it was all done. He stared at it, I pointed out the references to him and then it "clicked" and he was pretty shocked.

Here's a slide to better explain the similarity, or since it's intentionally vague, the "inspiration".

 

[Eddie Sotto]

There is a thread there as well and I am not fan. I think it just makes the monorail into the fun amusement ride that detractors have long claimed them to be because of their association with Disney. Even at Disneyland where the monorail is considered an attraction, this sort of wrap would likely not happen to other attraction vehicles, although the gold vehicles are a precedent for it happening.

In that same thread, I said I think I would have prefered it to be that the entire Resort was shifted to the world of Cars for a few days. Make every on stage vehicle a Cars vehicle. While this would not have worked for as long, I think it makes for a better premise than just the monorails now jumping away from being themselves.

I get your point. I just thought it was less obtrusive and was at least using the monorail as a personality than an Avenger's hard sell ad (that I ranted on about), that's all.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Hidden Details.

A few pages back I mentioned Walt's initials being hidden on the gaslight "key" on the bottom of the ground floor light sconces. After looking at images, it seems those lights may have been removed when the dining room made way for Lilly's boutique or whatever. I still have a production sample of one of the keys (used to turn the "gas" on and off) and posted a picture so at least you can see the initials on this inch or so wide, by about 2 inch tall brass part looked like. They were inspired by the cast iron initials in the balcony of Mr.Disney's Apartment in New Orleans Square at Disneyland.

 

[lazyboy97o]

I get your point. I just thought it was less obtrusive and was at least using the monorail as a personality than an Avenger's hard sell ad (that I ranted on about), that's all.

I get that too. I liked the wrap that was done for the reopening of the Submarine Voyage.


Does anybody know much about how well the full body wraps can cover the bold colors of the Disneyland Monorails? I know they do not repaint the stripe on the Walt Disney World Monorails (noticed some bad seams in photos) but that is much less color.

 

[Da Man]

It was a hidden thing I intentionally did and told no one. Anyone can knock out a little "Hidden Mickey", but a whole "Hidden Castle"? Go for it!

Tony Baxter was standing there looking at the whole block, a day or so before opening and I told him only then when it was all done. He stared at it, I pointed out the references to him and then it "clicked" and he was pretty shocked.

Here's a slide to better explain the similarity, or since it's intentionally vague, the "inspiration".

Bravo! That is just flat-out cool.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Bravo! That is just flat-out cool.

I thought so and even if you don't think it matches the Castle, still works as a block of buildings. It started out unconsciously, because the central building and tower came first, then the lower roof. The similarity struck me as to what was going on, and the small gazebo on the widow's walk and the rest of the block followed suit. At the 5 minute mark of this 1988 in-office video, you can check out the concept sketch in progress on my board. How weird is that? You see how the central building is defined but the sides have not taken shape and concept sketches are taped to each side, so the Castle thing had not begun yet.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IXAkWJK2F-4

 

[WDW1974]

Eddie ... just back from a long European 'holiday' that included three days at DLP. Got to dine at Walt's again (a tradition) and see Dreams (a wonderful show that Steve Davison put together) ... but it was very sad to see just how poorly that resort is maintained.

I've often used the word 'ghetto' to describe some of what I've experienced at WDW (mostly SQS issues and some general infrastructure neglect) ... but DLP really had that feeling in many places on this trip, which sort of shocked me because they did so much for the 15th anniversary.

Walt's, for instance, had just reopened after a rehab, but there were still issues with lightbulbs out in the lobby. Food and service was terrific as usual, but there were some small things on that front (is it really that hard to properly install paper towels in the restrooms and when you bring it to the attention of multiple CMs during a meal shouldn't it be dealt with immediately? ... not a design question, just a common sense business one). And while the restaurant looked great, I couldn't help look out the window and see horrible peeling paint and a Star Wars toy that had to be stuck up there by a CM as a joke).

Attractions like Small World (which still had the Christmas Holiday overlay banners up in the queue in MAY!) and Space Mountain were in wretched show condition. Worst I have ever seen on both. Others like PM and PoC were largely in great shape, but still had a few key effects not working.

And the resorts were in horrible shape ... Newport Bay Club looks like it is about to fall apart.

I don't know if you've talked to Tony since his return from Paris, but I wonder what his take was on his 'baby' ... because it's very obvious the resort has major issues just about all over ... even the castle, which had been rehabbed for the 20th, had some horrible looking construction doors and walls on the castle balcony that are totally unthemed/unpainted. And that was a common theme ... from the Hotel Santa Fe to the Molly Brown steamer even when they rehab something it really looks half-assed in every sense.

It was just very disheartening to see as I've never seen the parks so busy and the resorts looked full (I was at the nearby Marriott Village in a Grand Villa that I'd like to have as a vacation home!) so it isn't like the resort isn't attracting bodies. At some point, one might think they'd stop using the 1990s debt as an excuse for just letting this amazing place crumble.

Anyway, what have you heard? Any plans to visit soon?

Oh, and your work certainly holds up well!

 

[HMF]

I might have asked this before but can't remember the answer but why ar Adventureland and Frontierland in Paris flipped from their locations in their American Counterparts.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

I might have asked this before but can't remember the answer but why ar Adventureland and Frontierland in Paris flipped from their locations in their American Counterparts.

No Jungle Cruise, so the River fit better and then allowed you to do a second TSI type Island for as Adventure Island.
The other thing was for POTC to be a better transition to F'land and Pan, Captain Hook, etc.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Eddie ... just back from a long European 'holiday' that included three days at DLP. Got to dine at Walt's again (a tradition) and see Dreams (a wonderful show that Steve Davison put together) ... but it was very sad to see just how poorly that resort is maintained.

I've often used the word 'ghetto' to describe some of what I've experienced at WDW (mostly SQS issues and some general infrastructure neglect) ... but DLP really had that feeling in many places on this trip, which sort of shocked me because they did so much for the 15th anniversary.

Walt's, for instance, had just reopened after a rehab, but there were still issues with lightbulbs out in the lobby. Food and service was terrific as usual, but there were some small things on that front (is it really that hard to properly install paper towels in the restrooms and when you bring it to the attention of multiple CMs during a meal shouldn't it be dealt with immediately? ... not a design question, just a common sense business one). And while the restaurant looked great, I couldn't help look out the window and see horrible peeling paint and a Star Wars toy that had to be stuck up there by a CM as a joke).

Attractions like Small World (which still had the Christmas Holiday overlay banners up in the queue in MAY!) and Space Mountain were in wretched show condition. Worst I have ever seen on both. Others like PM and PoC were largely in great shape, but still had a few key effects not working.

And the resorts were in horrible shape ... Newport Bay Club looks like it is about to fall apart.

I don't know if you've talked to Tony since his return from Paris, but I wonder what his take was on his 'baby' ... because it's very obvious the resort has major issues just about all over ... even the castle, which had been rehabbed for the 20th, had some horrible looking construction doors and walls on the castle balcony that are totally unthemed/unpainted. And that was a common theme ... from the Hotel Santa Fe to the Molly Brown steamer even when they rehab something it really looks half-assed in every sense.

It was just very disheartening to see as I've never seen the parks so busy and the resorts looked full (I was at the nearby Marriott Village in a Grand Villa that I'd like to have as a vacation home!) so it isn't like the resort isn't attracting bodies. At some point, one might think they'd stop using the 1990s debt as an excuse for just letting this amazing place crumble.

Anyway, what have you heard? Any plans to visit soon?

Oh, and your work certainly holds up well!

I'd like to go back, yes. Thanks for the report, although discouraging. Have not spoken to Mister Baxter since his trip over there. I'm sure he's not thrilled by the decay, but when you are not making money it's a bit tougher to keep up. Who knows how much dough they get to even do rehabs? That has been a huge issue for 20 years as the place barely keeps afloat. At least the paint that is peeling is in tasteful colors! DLP has posted a 20% loss this last quarter so things have been rough out there. Lots of cutbacks.

 

[HMF]

I'd like to go back, yes. Thanks for the report, although discouraging. Have not spoken to Mister Baxter since his trip over there. I'm sure he's not thrilled by the decay, but when you are not making money it's a bit tougher to keep up. That has been a huge issue for 20 years as the place barely keeps afloat. At least the paint that is peeling is in tasteful colors! DLP has posted a 20% loss this last quarter so things have been rough out there. Lots of cutbacks.

It's a shame that the Park is not as well received as hoped, It really looks awesome. I read when the park opened that there were certain French Cultural things, (lack of Wine on the menu) that were initially a problem. Was it re-named Disneyland Paris because the EuroDisney brand was tainted? I remember it was spoofed on The Simpsons as DCA was later. (Only DCA's trashing was justified)
http://deadhomersociety.files.wordpress.com/2012/02/euroitchyscratchyland.png
(I love the Sketch to reality book BTW)

 

[dagobert]

It's a shame that the Park is not as well received as hoped, It really looks awesome. I read when the park opened that there were certain French Cultural things, (lack of Wine on the menu) that were initially a problem. Was it re-named Disneyland Paris because the EuroDisney brand was tainted?

According to my informations, it was renamed because of the bad association with the word Euro. The Frech associated it with the European Union and our new currency. I prefer Disneyland Paris a lot more, since it connects to one of the most beautiful cities in the world. You have instantly a positive picture about the place. However since DLP caters to all of Europe, the the Euro Disney resort reflected that a lot better.

I know the US Magic Kingdom parks don't offer alcohol, but I've never understood that. I enjoy having a glass of wine or beer with a good meal. It's part of our culture and I think that was a bit short sighted when Disney opened their park in Paris. It's not necessary to sell alcohol at fast food locations, but I just can't imagine having a wonderful meal at Walt's, we always eat there, with a Coke.

 

[dagobert]

I'd like to go back, yes. Thanks for the report, although discouraging. Have not spoken to Mister Baxter since his trip over there. I'm sure he's not thrilled by the decay, but when you are not making money it's a bit tougher to keep up. Who knows how much dough they get to even do rehabs? That has been a huge issue for 20 years as the place barely keeps afloat. At least the paint that is peeling is in tasteful colors! DLP has posted a 20% loss this last quarter so things have been rough out there. Lots of cutbacks.

The maintenance is a huge problem in Paris. The sad thing is that ED SCA launched a big refurb program last year to bring the park back to its old glory for the 20th Anniversary. It seems it was only a cosmetic refurb and not a proper one of the whole attractions and buildings. Hopefully Mr. Baxter got to see the bad spots as well, because that may help to improve the parks again. The parks have never looked nicer than during the 15th birthday and so that makes me wonder why they didn't try the same for the 20th as well. I guess the most money was used for Dreams than for maintenance.

As far as my understanding goes, DLP would make profit if they wouldn't have to repay these high debts.

 

[HMF]

According to my informations, it was renamed because of the bad association with the word Euro. The Frech associated it with the European Union and our new currency. I prefer Disneyland Paris a lot more, since it connects to one of the most beautiful cities in the world. You have instantly a positive picture about the place. However since DLP caters to all of Europe, the the Euro Disney resort reflected that a lot better.

I know the US Magic Kingdom parks don't offer alcohol, but I've never understood that. I enjoy having a glass of wine or beer with a good meal. It's part of our culture and I think that was a bit short sighted when Disney opened their park in Paris. It's not necessary to sell alcohol at fast food locations, but I just can't imagine having a wonderful meal at Walt's, we always eat there, with a Coke.

Alcoholic beverages though legal tends to be somewhat taboo in American culture. That said, beer advertising is rather prominent in certain circles. (Sports Markets usually)
BTW, Eddie, was the Grand Canyon diorama part of the Main Street project?

 

[Eddie Sotto]

It's a shame that the Park is not as well received as hoped, It really looks awesome. I read when the park opened that there were certain French Cultural things, (lack of Wine on the menu) that were initially a problem. Was it re-named Disneyland Paris because the EuroDisney brand was tainted? I remember it was spoofed on The Simpsons as DCA was later. (Only DCA's trashing was justified)
http://deadhomersociety.files.wordpress.com/2012/02/euroitchyscratchyland.png
(I love the Sketch to reality book BTW)

I'm not sure that the issue is that the park is not well received. It is. DLP is the highest attended tourist attraction in Europe by a huge margin. There were issues of overbuilding, guest spending underestimated along with high labor costs, etc. The wine thing was dealt with first year. From what I read, part of the current downturn is that they spent lots of money on restoring the park for the 20th and that is on the balance sheet. You toss in the European economic meltdown underway, and it makes it hard to climb out from debt.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Alcoholic beverages though legal tends to be somewhat taboo in American culture. That said, beer advertising is rather prominent in certain circles. (Sports Markets usually)
BTW, Eddie, was the Grand Canyon diorama part of the Main Street project?

Grand Canyon was part of Frontierland but Eddie Johnson, who was my Art director on Main Street and the trains, art directed it and did a great job. Way better than the original.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

As far as my understanding goes, DLP would make profit if they wouldn't have to repay these high debts.

Simple answer. Seems right to me.

 

[WDW1974]

I'd like to go back, yes. Thanks for the report, although discouraging. Have not spoken to Mister Baxter since his trip over there. I'm sure he's not thrilled by the decay, but when you are not making money it's a bit tougher to keep up. Who knows how much dough they get to even do rehabs? That has been a huge issue for 20 years as the place barely keeps afloat. At least the paint that is peeling is in tasteful colors! DLP has posted a 20% loss this last quarter so things have been rough out there. Lots of cutbacks.

I was still shocked by the level of decay at the resort. The resorts are just in terrible shape (Sequoia aside as it received a refurb recently and DLH to some extent, although it hasn't).

I also wonder just how their accounting works. How are you the most visited destination in Europe for two decades and still bleeding money? How can you charge absurd prices (I did a hotels.com check for fun after doing a hotel tour and Santa Fe was coming up for over $500 a night) for your hotels and have an over 90% occupancy rate and be bleeding money? How can you raise prices for food and admission and ... you get the point. I don't know if it's creative accounting or poor management or both, but this can't all be early 90s debt. Not in 2012.

Anyway, still loved the resort, but was surprised because much of it looked much worse than on my last visit in fall '09.

MSUSA even had issues with facades peeling/rotting ... and some of the gas lamps in the arcades weren't working. I would have thought with the media in for the 20th kickoff that DLP would have made that area shine.

The Pirate Ship looks great, though. Of course, it is BRAND new since the original rotted away.

Was strange because some areas are getting love while others aren't ... and the refurbing that is happening is just not being done with any sort of care/attention to detail. Paint on a pig would be better way of describing things.

The 20th merchandise is sorta blah ... liked a baseball cap, but not for $30 ... did buy the new 20th coffee table book for 49 euros. Haven't done much but skim through it, but it did make me wonder why DL didn't have a book like that for its 50th or WDW for its 40th.

 

[WDW1974]

According to my informations, it was renamed because of the bad association with the word Euro. The Frech associated it with the European Union and our new currency. I prefer Disneyland Paris a lot more, since it connects to one of the most beautiful cities in the world. You have instantly a positive picture about the place. However since DLP caters to all of Europe, the the Euro Disney resort reflected that a lot better.

Euro Disney was a bad name from the start ... and I think it hurt the park ... much like DCA.

I know the US Magic Kingdom parks don't offer alcohol, but I've never understood that. I enjoy having a glass of wine or beer with a good meal. It's part of our culture and I think that was a bit short sighted when Disney opened their park in Paris. It's not necessary to sell alcohol at fast food locations, but I just can't imagine having a wonderful meal at Walt's, we always eat there, with a Coke.

Agree here, but they were following the MK model handbook (no booze at DL, MK or TDL). They should have looked at the local culture when making that call ... although I usually have wine with dinner at Walt's, this time I just had a ... Coke!

It's funny, Eddie was actually a topic of discussion during the meal due to his design work! ... Should have gotten him to pick up the check!:animwink: