Eddie Sotto's take on the current state of the parks (Part II)

[John]

Hey Eddie, I was writing in another thread and a thought occured to me. I know you visited WDW when you were young. Likely even before Eisner. Just wondering if you ever discussed with him the details of where he was taking the resort and if there were other possibilities on the table. I know that if you had your way the resort would have been developed very differently. Any light you can shed would be fascinating. Especially any 'inside baseball' trivia you might have. And perhaps more details of how you would have developed the resort. I am sure many here would want to know as much as you can tell us about WDW from your earliest time with the company and even before.

This.....with baited breath

 

[Eddie Sotto]

This.....with baited breath

I first visited WDW as it was under construction as a 13 year old in January 1971 (VERY wowed), then again in 1974 for a first real visit. Loved it. Did not love Lake Buena Vista village much, or the fact that the Mk did not have more original rides. It felt a bit over scaled and soulless compared to Disneyland, but it was pure Disney and stunning in it's detail. the property was a wow as well, we stayed in the Contemporary and I'd stay outside the room and just watch the monorail go through. Or just ride in circles. And like many, had expectations for what the Preview Center laid out as the "master plan" for the property. That was good enough for me. That is to say that you keep your focus on the MK with more big E shows, add exotic themed hotels around the lake and finally build that future city that you can move into. Done deal.

I never directly talked to Michael about the future of WDW as he saw it, but he pretty much showed us his direction in the real estate division (DDC) created to develop the property. He brought the "real world" into the resort as the business opportunity was for more to stay on property and not International Drive. The architecture itself was his stamp. He added DAK and DHS to the menu, and had us looking at more park ideas, so that was part of it too. He wasn't done but I don't see a huge mystery there. It came at a cost.

He conceded that the Dolphin hotel ruined the vista of the France Pavilion but it was too expensive to berm out. But he did eventually care about the impact to the parks, even though he was warned.

"Celebration" and the Failed "Disney Institute" was his version of "Progress City", so he in his way checked off that box. He always wanted to do a project called "the Workplace" where you see how things are made. Never happened. So he did have a goal that was not just exploitive theme parks or hotels and shops. He wanted to break new ground and use some of the elements that were educational and fun and make them Disney. I respect him for pushing for those types of things. I'll give some thought to what I would have done.

 

[ChrisFL]

"Celebration" and the Failed "Disney Institute" was his version of "Progress City", so he in his way checked off that box. He always wanted to do a project called "the Workplace" where you see how things are made. Never happened. So he did have a goal that was not just exploitive theme parks or hotels and shops. He wanted to break new ground and use some of the elements that were educational and fun and make them Disney. I respect him for pushing for those types of things. I'll give some thought to what I would have done.

I can't fault him for those ideas, they probably could have been implemented better (having the Disney Institute so separate from the actual parks hurt it, I believe), but at least it was an attempt at making Disney more than just a tourist destination and really provide more value.

 

[jt04]

I first visited WDW as it was under construction as a 13 year old in January 1971 (VERY wowed), then again in 1974 for a first real visit. Loved it. Did not love Lake Buena Vista village much, or the fact that the Mk did not have more original rides. It felt a bit over scaled and soulless compared to Disneyland, but it was pure Disney and stunning in it's detail. the property was a wow as well, we stayed in the Contemporary and I'd stay outside the room and just watch the monorail go through. Or just ride in circles. And like many, had expectations for what the Preview Center laid out as the "master plan" for the property. That was good enough for me. That is to say that you keep your focus on the MK with more big E shows, add exotic themed hotels around the lake and finally build that future city that you can move into. Done deal.

I never directly talked to Michael about the future of WDW as he saw it, but he pretty much showed us his direction in the real estate division (DDC) created to develop the property. He brought the "real world" into the resort as the business opportunity was for more to stay on property and not International Drive. The architecture itself was his stamp. He added DAK and DHS to the menu, and had us looking at more park ideas, so that was part of it too. He wasn't done but I don't see a huge mystery there. It came at a cost.

He conceded that the Dolphin hotel ruined the vista of the France Pavilion but it was too expensive to berm out. But he did eventually care about the impact to the parks, even though he was warned.

"Celebration" and the Failed "Disney Institute" was his version of "Progress City", so he in his way checked off that box. He always wanted to do a project called "the Workplace" where you see how things are made. Never happened. So he did have a goal that was not just exploitive theme parks or hotels and shops. He wanted to break new ground and use some of the elements that were educational and fun and make them Disney. I respect him for pushing for those types of things. I'll give some thought to what I would have done.

Great read and looking forward to more.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

One thought.

If money were less an object, I'd have built out the hotels on the lake and then added tributaries for more water transport. Why not have Riverboats leave Frontierland's ROA thru a canal and even head out to the Wilderness Lodge hotels or to a landing for the Fort Wilderness Campground? Maybe a fleet of them? those beautiful ferries were great. Kinetics are powerful.

 

[Blueliner]

If money were less an object, I'd have built out the hotels on the lake and then added tributaries for more water transport. Why not have Riverboats leave Frontierland's ROA thru a canal and even head out to the Wilderness Lodge hotels or to a landing for the Fort Wilderness Campground? Maybe a fleet of them? those beautiful ferries were great. Kinetics are powerful.

Eddie, to your point, how much thought goes into (or went into, or should go into) "property-wide kinetics" (for lack of a better term) as an element of Show? I posted on another thread about the traffic jams leading up to Downtown Disney as you approach on Buena Vista Drive from the west (World Drive, Epcot resorts, DHS, etc.). The traffic in that area seems to be getting worse.

I think that the traffic is - in itself - detrimental to Show. Massive traffic jams on Buena Vista Drive may not be as jarring as, for example, a cast member in Frontierland clothes walking through Tomorrowland, but it is part of the whole experience. It plays a part in destroying the sense of immersion and breaks the suspension of disbelief that I engage in when go under the gate.

I suppose it is the flipside of the blessing of size that WDW enjoys vis a vis Disneyland. You have more of a buffer from the real world, but you have to figure out a way to get people around without souring the experience. The thing I love most about Disneyland is the walkability.

 

[ChrisFL]

Eddie, to your point, how much thought goes into (or went into, or should go into) "property-wide kinetics" (for lack of a better term) as an element of Show? I posted on another thread about the traffic jams leading up to Downtown Disney as you approach on Buena Vista Drive from the west (World Drive, Epcot resorts, DHS, etc.). The traffic in that area seems to be getting worse.

I think that the traffic is - in itself - detrimental to Show. Massive traffic jams on Buena Vista Drive may not be as jarring as, for example, a cast member in Frontierland clothes walking through Tomorrowland, but it is part of the whole experience. It plays a part in destroying the sense of immersion and breaks the suspension of disbelief that I engage in when go under the gate.

Which is the main reason why the Seven Seas Lagoon exists

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Eddie, to your point, how much thought goes into (or went into, or should go into) "property-wide kinetics" (for lack of a better term) as an element of Show? I posted on another thread about the traffic jams leading up to Downtown Disney as you approach on Buena Vista Drive from the west (World Drive, Epcot resorts, DHS, etc.). The traffic in that area seems to be getting worse.

I think that the traffic is - in itself - detrimental to Show. Massive traffic jams on Buena Vista Drive may not be as jarring as, for example, a cast member in Frontierland clothes walking through Tomorrowland, but it is part of the whole experience. It plays a part in destroying the sense of immersion and breaks the suspension of disbelief that I engage in when go under the gate.

I suppose it is the flipside of the blessing of size that WDW enjoys vis a vis Disneyland. You have more of a buffer from the real world, but you have to figure out a way to get people around without souring the experience. The thing I love most about Disneyland is the walkability.

Yes. Traffic is the "real world" we all seek to escape. WDW was the better idea. Take the boat or monorail over vast landscapes to the places you want to be. Another way of life and funner way to get around. That to me was the true added value of WDW over DL. Walt was not only dreaming bigger, it was the freedom from the "real world" stranglehold the Cheap Motels, Traffic and Freeways had on his beautiful Anaheim park. Traffic only brings that all back to your doorstep. the hard part was growing the resort to a ton of hotels to get that marketshare from I Drive. How could you expand the monorail to accommodate the huge growth they wanted? You can't and if you could, how long would that take? They also wanted lower cost rooms and that likely did not "pencil out" with a monorail attached to each one. Enter the Bus.

 

[Jeanine]

It's not been mentioned, and yes it is a great honor to get a window while you're alive to see it! I got some heat for that because some of the other land designers wanted their own window. I told them it used up too many and that we should share. Thought the joke played better as more of a "clinic" idea anyhow. I did the Dentist Voice and agonizing patient moans that play from the dentist office window ( laughter while drills run and teeth are pulled). The same effects play from another "Dr. Bitz office" in MSUSA DL although my name is not featured. Fun stuff.

You can hear it here, along with some other audio stuff I voiced on, like the Market House Phones and the Marceline Hotel.

http://www.themeparkaudioarchives.com/members/disneyland_main_street.html

Ha--I'm here, at DLP, seeing it now. It's amazing, isn't it--to be able to hear the voices someone recorded thousands of miles and two decades away! The park is beautiful, and Tony Baxter gave a couple talks that clearly displayed his great (and well-deserved) pride in it.

Main Street is fantastic, and with the cold and rain we've been having, everyone is grateful for the arcades. All the twisty passageways linking all the different lands are so interesting, and really give depth to the experience of walking around.

The one thing that I find terrifying for some reason however, is the Statue of Liberty display--it's pitch dark when you walk in (I have only seen it when there was no other people around)--and then you start seeing shadowy figures with flashes of light and indistinct voices. I've only managed to stay in for a few seconds before bolting, but I hope to find it when there are other people around to decrease the eerieness.

Thanks for the park--it really is the most beautiful of the MKs!

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Ha--I'm here, at DLP, seeing it now. It's amazing, isn't it--to be able to hear the voices someone recorded thousands of miles and two decades away! The park is beautiful, and Tony Baxter gave a couple talks that clearly displayed his great (and well-deserved) pride in it.

Main Street is fantastic, and with the cold and rain we've been having, everyone is grateful for the arcades. All the twisty passageways linking all the different lands are so interesting, and really give depth to the experience of walking around.

The one thing that I find terrifying for some reason however, is the Statue of Liberty display--it's pitch dark when you walk in (I have only seen it when there was no other people around)--and then you start seeing shadowy figures with flashes of light and indistinct voices. I've only managed to stay in for a few seconds before bolting, but I hope to find it when there are other people around to decrease the eerieness.

Thanks for the park--it really is the most beautiful of the MKs!

Glad you are having a great time. Thanks for giving us an almost live report! It sounds like the display is not working properly. It is that dark transition from the outside, like the Main Street Cinema takes getting adjusted to. It's a "black light" driven sound and light show so you should have been able to see the Steamship and the guests talking. Sorry to creep you out, it's the Orson Welles fan in me!

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Since this is the 20th Anniversary of DLP, I thought I'd post some recollections from that time two decades ago.

The week prior to opening was hectic but depressing. Hectic in that there was still almost an impossible list of small stuff to accomplish, but depressing in that the strategy of management was to send technical people back to the States so the designers could not continue to iterate those finishing touches and you'd save money. Shocking, but true.

We only had a few in-field WDI crew members to do things and one or two laborers. On Main Street, the electrical installation had been a bit of a nightmare as many of the lighting systems were either miswired (can't figure out how to turn on a specific circuit or set of lights) or did not work at all. The flags were not yet on the flagpoles (no one installed cables and pulleys either so they had to be tie wrapped) and window boxes had not been filled with flowers or anything, and the list goes on. It looked unfinished. We had a "Sundae" but not enough hands to add the "Cherry". I had figured that at the last minute Disney would fly in help to finish the project and like ants, we would pour over it all and make it work. Silence. No ants. So we did as much as we could ourselves.

I remember the very cold night before opening, being on a Crane ("Cherry Picker") with our small team, putting the flowers in the boxes and flags on the flag poles ourselves when then Disney President Frank Wells and his wife walked down the Street. He was shocked to see me up there doing that stuff and could not believe it. I told him the story of how there was no one left to do those things. It surprised him but he commended our team on trying. He had been very helpful in the past, funding a program to add detail that was missing from the facades. He was a good guy.

About 3am, we stole away upstairs in Walt's Restaurant and opened up some Champagne in the Art Nouveau Room overlooking the Street, kept warm and had a few good laughs. The flags made it, the flowers made it, but there were always issues with lighting and dimmers! My wife and I spent what was left of the night in the Disneyland Hotel and woke up to that great Disneyland morning sound, the whistle of the Steam Train!

A footnote from the past, patinated by memory.

 

[flynnibus]

Thank you for sharing that Eddie - great to read. Pull it all together in a book for us

I really enjoyed the book by the team working on EPCOT's American Adventure. Alas it was short and pretty narrow to just that small circle of people... I would love to hear stories from a greater swath.

 

[Bolna]

Eddie, thanks for that story!

I will be at DLP in May to celebrate its birthday and already have a dinner reservation for Walt's - it will give me a new perspective when I look at the Art Nouveau room and think of you sitting there 20 years earlier on the night before the opening of DLP!

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Eddie, thanks for that story!

I will be at DLP in May to celebrate its birthday and already have a dinner reservation for Walt's - it will give me a new perspective when I look at the Art Nouveau room and think of you sitting there 20 years earlier on the night before the opening of DLP!

We did not have enough time to finish the elaborate moldings in that room out of mahogany like the fireplace, which was made in England. So we made clay models on site and cast them from fiberglass and scenically painted them to match. I did drawings of each doorframe, but just to get the right Art Nouveau "flow", we lit cigarettes and watched the smoke rise and adjusted the clay models to be more graceful like the billowing ash. Look at the door frames and you may be able to make that connection.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Thank you for sharing that Eddie - great to read. Pull it all together in a book for us

I really enjoyed the book by the team working on EPCOT's American Adventure. Alas it was short and pretty narrow to just that small circle of people... I would love to hear stories from a greater swath.

Working on it now. It will be more than just a recanting of this thread.

 

[DisneyDadof5]

Looking forward to it!

Working on it now. It will be more than just a recanting of this thread.

 

[Blueliner]

Yes. Traffic is the "real world" we all seek to escape. WDW was the better idea. Take the boat or monorail over vast landscapes to the places you want to be. Another way of life and funner way to get around. That to me was the true added value of WDW over DL. Walt was not only dreaming bigger, it was the freedom from the "real world" stranglehold the Cheap Motels, Traffic and Freeways had on his beautiful Anaheim park. Traffic only brings that all back to your doorstep. the hard part was growing the resort to a ton of hotels to get that marketshare from I Drive. How could you expand the monorail to accommodate the huge growth they wanted? You can't and if you could, how long would that take? They also wanted lower cost rooms and that likely did not "pencil out" with a monorail attached to each one. Enter the Bus.

Thanks. After seeing your comment about adding waterways to other resorts, I managed to blow through a couple of hours imagining what they could do with the existing waterways to reduce the dependence on buses.

http://forums.wdwmagic.com/showthread.php?t=835346&page=23

It seems like the main drawback to extensive waterways (including a waterway from Downtown Disney to Bay Lake) would be the fact that boats would not be able to travel very quickly. Also, another person on that thread pointed out that some of the existing waterways are used to control water levels.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Thanks. After seeing your comment about adding waterways to other resorts, I managed to blow through a couple of hours imagining what they could do with the existing waterways to reduce the dependence on buses.

http://forums.wdwmagic.com/showthread.php?t=835346&page=23

It seems like the main drawback to extensive waterways (including a waterway from Downtown Disney to Bay Lake) would be the fact that boats would not be able to travel very quickly. Also, another person on that thread pointed out that some of the existing waterways are used to control water levels.

I have not studied it, but maybe it's in combination with other omnibuses and fun ways to get around. We had a whole reinventing the bus discussion a while back.

 

[Bolna]

We did not have enough time to finish the elaborate moldings in that room out of mahogany like the fireplace, which was made in England. So we made clay models on site and cast them from fiberglass and scenically painted them to match. I did drawings of each doorframe, but just to get the right Art Nouveau "flow", we lit cigarettes and watched the smoke rise and adjusted the clay models to be more graceful like the billowing ash. Look at the door frames and you may be able to make that connection.

Interesting! I shall certainly look for this. I think I know what you mean, but I never associated those Art Nouveau figures with smoke, but it does make a lot of sense! Was that one of the original inspirations for this style - I always thought it had more to do with the way nature grew as so much of it seems to be floral in a way.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Interesting! I shall certainly look for this. I think I know what you mean, but I never associated those Art Nouveau figures with smoke, but it does make a lot of sense! Was that one of the original inspirations for this style - I always thought it had more to do with the way nature grew as so much of it seems to be floral in a way.

You are correct, some of the more fluid designs in Nouveau are drawn from the natural world, flowers, vines and so forth. The art of Alphonse Mucha featured Cigarette Smoke in interesting forms in his JOB Cigarette advertisements.

http://www.yowzers.com/viewitem.php?productid=878

the ceiling of that room was intended to be the vapors of imagination that emanated from the fireplace and extended from there. We were supposed to have carved a piece of wood to reach up and connect the mural to the top of the hearth as they share the same surreal styling.