Duplicate Animatronics/Figures in Little Mermaid

[RSoxNo1]

Actually, a lot of Disney history makes us think that they would develop a new ride system. Look at Indy, they were going to go with a mine train ride, but changed it to Jeeps because they felt it would be derivative to Big Thunder. Disney makes a conscious effort to develop new ride systems, or at least different ride vehicles.

What you basically just said was that, "Disney created a new ride system once." I'm not doubting that they're capable of creating new ride systems and new e-ticket rides. I'm not disagreeing that the Magic Kingdom could use another e-ticket ride. What I'm saying is that Mermaid was never intended to be an E-ticket ride, not every attraction has to be groundbreaking, and despite not being groundbreaking, Mermaid will still be the best dark ride in Fantasyland.

Restricting field of view is OK in some circumstances, but on Toad you've got 360 views and on Mermaid it is 180 . . . yet you can still look up and see the ceiling and all the lights.

It was Eisner who said that rides trick people into having a good time and that nobody would ever "look back" on a Disney ride. If you know where to "look back" on Toad you can Sherlock Holmes in a window and other cool stuff.

I'd rather have 180 degrees of viewing something of substance than 360 degrees of viewing of cardboard cutouts. People are clouded by their nostalgia with regards to classic Fantasyland dark rides. Mr. Toad's Wild Ride is an novelty attraction, nothing more.

 

[Pixiedustmaker]

What you basically just said was that, "Disney created a new ride system once." I'm not doubting that they're capable of creating new ride systems and new e-ticket rides.

I'm not sure exactly what you are saying when you summarized my comments. Disney has a long tradition of designing new ride systems for rides, new track effects, new ride vehicles, new systems. So much so that the ride system/vehicles used in individual rides varies quite a bit.

Here's another problem for LM, look at the ride vehicle below, it is used in Nemo and looks a lot like LM's modified doombuggy

Here's is the Little Mermaid clam shells design for DCA

I would be surprised if you argued that this was OK given the rides are in separate parks or something. It would be nice if LM had its own identity and didn't look so similar to other rides. They didn't need to invent a new ride system, necessarily, but why can't the clam shells look different?

 

[Pixiedustmaker]

Mermaid will still be the best dark ride in Fantasyland.

I'd rather have 180 degrees of viewing something of substance than 360 degrees of viewing of cardboard cutouts. People are clouded by their nostalgia with regards to classic Fantasyland dark rides. Mr. Toad's Wild Ride is an novelty attraction, nothing more.

Mermaid isn't a dark ride, it uses mostly "white light", like in Pooh and Small World, though they recently added some UV in DCA.

I love Mr. Toad in Disneyland, it is fast paced and despite the flat props, the ride works.

Oh, and if you didn't know, LM in DCA has "cardboard cutouts" standing in for Ursula blowing up, and the scene where Ariel gets her voice back, and screens are used in the ride. In fact, the "cardboard cutouts" look worse in Mermaid than in Mr. Toad as the white light really wrecks whatever the intended effect is.

Mermaid is my least favorite ride when compared to pretty much everything in Disneyland's Fantasyland that is a dark ride.

 

[danlb_2000]

Mermaid isn't a dark ride, it uses mostly "white light", like in Pooh and Small World, though they recently added some UV in DCA.

I love Mr. Toad in Disneyland, it is fast paced and despite the flat props, the ride works.

Oh, and if you didn't know, LM in DCA has "cardboard cutouts" standing in for Ursula blowing up, and the scene where Ariel gets her voice back, and screens are used in the ride. In fact, the "cardboard cutouts" look worse in Mermaid than in Mr. Toad as the white light really wrecks whatever the intended effect is.

Mermaid is my least favorite ride when compared to pretty much everything in Disneyland's Fantasyland that is a dark ride.

The lighting in the ride doesn't have any bearing on whether it's a "dark ride" or not. Here is a good definition from About.com:

"A dark ride is an industry term for any amusement park or theme park ride that uses vehicles to send passengers into an indoor environment and through a series of scenes or tableaus"

So Mermaid and Small World are "dark rides" even though the environments might not be dark.

 

[RSoxNo1]

I'm not sure exactly what you are saying when you summarized my comments. Disney has a long tradition of designing new ride systems for rides, new track effects, new ride vehicles, new systems. So much so that the ride system/vehicles used in individual rides varies quite a bit.

Here's another problem for LM, look at the ride vehicle below, it is used in Nemo and looks a lot like LM's modified doombuggy

Here's is the Little Mermaid clam shells design for DCA

I would be surprised if you argued that this was OK given the rides are in separate parks or something. It would be nice if LM had its own identity and didn't look so similar to other rides. They didn't need to invent a new ride system, necessarily, but why can't the clam shells look different?

Mermaid isn't a dark ride, it uses mostly "white light", like in Pooh and Small World, though they recently added some UV in DCA.

I love Mr. Toad in Disneyland, it is fast paced and despite the flat props, the ride works.

Oh, and if you didn't know, LM in DCA has "cardboard cutouts" standing in for Ursula blowing up, and the scene where Ariel gets her voice back, and screens are used in the ride. In fact, the "cardboard cutouts" look worse in Mermaid than in Mr. Toad as the white light really wrecks whatever the intended effect is.

Mermaid is my least favorite ride when compared to pretty much everything in Disneyland's Fantasyland that is a dark ride.

I'm paraphrasing, but you said that they invented a new ride system for Indiana Jones so they can invent a new one for Mermaid. Can they? Yes. Was it necessary? You haven't convinced me yet.

Mermaid isn't a dark ride, it uses mostly "white light", like in Pooh and Small World, though they recently added some UV in DCA.

I love Mr. Toad in Disneyland, it is fast paced and despite the flat props, the ride works.

Oh, and if you didn't know, LM in DCA has "cardboard cutouts" standing in for Ursula blowing up, and the scene where Ariel gets her voice back, and screens are used in the ride. In fact, the "cardboard cutouts" look worse in Mermaid than in Mr. Toad as the white light really wrecks whatever the intended effect is.

Mermaid is my least favorite ride when compared to pretty much everything in Disneyland's Fantasyland that is a dark ride.

You're arguing semantics at this point. If the limited definition of dark ride is the fun house style ride vehicle through black light sets, then I'll make the statement that dark rides are some of the worst attractions in any Disney park.

Yes, Ursula is a 2 dimensional image in the last scene. Yes, this could have been a grander effect with fire, energy coming from Triton's staff and a very dramatic sinking into the water. This could have been a triggered effect had the vehicle been something different than an omnimover, and something like that could have qualified Mermaid as a true E-ticket. But Mermaid wasn't ever intended to be an E-ticket, it told the "book report" of the movie better than any other "dark ride" on either coast and yet the insatiable fan base is whining and complaining about it. There are plenty of things wrong with attractions at Disney World - The Little Mermaid should be no where near the top of the list.

 

[Pixiedustmaker]

The lighting in the ride doesn't have any bearing on whether it's a "dark ride" or not. Here is a good definition from About.com:

"A dark ride is an industry term for any amusement park or theme park ride that uses vehicles to send passengers into an indoor environment and through a series of scenes or tableaus"

So Mermaid and Small World are "dark rides" even though the environments might not be dark.

Maybe there is no definite definition, but traditionally, dark rides referred to rides that were primarily "dark" other than the special UV light which causes phosphorescent pain to light up. The light used in rides like Pooh is "white light" which is the same light used to light up parades and stuff, nothing special there. I believe About.com is wrong and doesn't reflect the obvious history of the term. Calling all inside rides "dark rides" is silly, then the term dark ride doesn't mean anything.

You do know that a UV light is often called a "dark light"? Yes? This is where the history of the term came from.

 

[Pixiedustmaker]

How come nobody has commented on the fact that the rides vehicles for Nemo and Mermaid are almost identical? Doesn't this obviate the uniqueness of Nemo, and vice-versa Mermaid?

Look at the ride vehicle below, it is used in Nemo and looks a lot like LM's modified doombuggy, almost identical.

Here's is the Little Mermaid clam shells design for DCA

I would be surprised if you argued that this was OK given the rides are in separate parks or something. It would be nice if LM had its own identity and didn't look so similar to other rides. They didn't need to invent a new ride system, necessarily, but why can't the clam shells look different?

 

[danlb_2000]

Maybe there is no definite definition, but traditionally, dark rides referred to rides that were primarily "dark" other than the special UV light which causes phosphorescent pain to light up. The light used in rides like Pooh is "white light" which is the same light used to light up parades and stuff, nothing special there. I believe About.com is wrong and doesn't reflect the obvious history of the term. Calling all inside rides "dark rides" is silly, then the term dark ride doesn't mean anything.

You do know that a UV light is often called a "dark light"? Yes? This is where the history of the term came from.

I have never heard the term "Dark Ride" restricted to just rides that are dark.

From About.com: "Today, attractions such as it's a small world (sic) aren't necessarily spooky--or even dark--but are still considered "dark" rides."

From Wikipeadia: "A dark ride ... is an indoor amusement ride where riders in guided vehicles travel through specially lit scenes that typically contain animation, sound, music, and special effects. A dark ride does not have to be dark. They are enclosed, so all illumination is artificial, and most use special lighting to achieve theatrical effects."

From E-How: "The definition of a dark ride gives lie to its very name. A dark ride simply means a ride that is enclosed rather than a ride without four walls or a ceiling."

Finally Dafe.com, one of the biggest sites for darkride enthusiasts lists Little Mermaid as a dark ride

 

[danlb_2000]

How come nobody has commented on the fact that the rides vehicles for Nemo and Mermaid are almost identical? Doesn't this obviate the uniqueness of Nemo, and vice-versa Mermaid?

i didn't comment on this because I don't feel it's a big deal. The shell design is appropriate for both rides. I don't think it does anything to lessen either ride. Pirates and Small World use basically the same ride vehicle, doesn't lessen the value of either ride.

 

[Californian Elitist]

How come nobody has commented on the fact that the rides vehicles for Nemo and Mermaid are almost identical? Doesn't this obviate the uniqueness of Nemo, and vice-versa Mermaid?

I don't think anyone cares.

 

[flynnibus]

How come nobody has commented on the fact that the rides vehicles for Nemo and Mermaid are almost identical?

Because they are appropriate for both and it doesn't matter they ate similar.

Just like it doesn't matter space and Matterhorn are similar.

 

[KingMickey]

Hey guys, I'm just going to jump in here real quick.

I have all of "The Imagineering Field Guide Books" that have been published, created by Imagineers. The book intro includes Imagineer lingo that they use often and to cite what they say about what a "dark ride" is...they say "a term often used to describe the charming little Fantasyland attractions housed more or less completely inside show buildings, which allows for greater isolation of show elements and light control". Take it as you will, that's just how THEY consider it, which is essentially how many people see what a dark ride is.

I was one of the first people to ride Mermaid on opening day, so obviously I was excited, but that doesn't mean I didn't pick up on the rides flaws. Yes, the final scenes do seem a bit rushed, they seem a bit too close together, Ursula's Lair is the climax of the ride, but that does not make it a bad ride. People don't have to agree and I respect that.

I think there was so much anticipation for this, 20 years worth, that people expected this attraction to be the most glorified attraction in a Disney park, but it was never promoted as anything more than a very, very nice Fantasyland D-Ticket dark ride.

Regarding the ending, I believe that, while a great Ursula Destruction scene could be great and epic, one of the best climactic Disney moments, it does absolutely nothing for the story. In the original model, we saw that the Ursula in that scene was slightly bigger, probably still a cut-out, but at least focused on the "battle" more. That's been scrapped from the actual ride and I'm not that sad about it because they took the alternate route of telling the actual story, Ariel getting her voice back and being with Eric, while still incorporating Ursula's demise. I'd rather get more story than just a big battle scene which would transition Into a happy wedding, making that a very awkward transition. And arguably, Mermaid tells the best story out of any of the dark rides based on the Disney films.

As for the finale, I do agree that they could have put something else in there, but having the same animatronics does not ruin the scene or the attraction. I would rather have them in there than have nothing at all, that would be a cheap finale. Sure it may not be the best, but changes come and go in the parks, we've seen attractions change, they become better or sometimes worse an this is just another one to chalk up.

And I hate to bring it up, but if you were to look across the street from MK and see that big golf ball that has had its own finale ripped out, I think that is something to really be upset about. It's one thing to have duplicates, it's another to have two minutes of dark purgatory.

I think LM is a nice addition and works well in both parks. Others don't have to agree with me an I respect that.

 

[td1129]

The term dark ride has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not a ride has uv lights. One of the biggest reaches I've read on this site and that's a major accomplishment,

 

[Pixiedustmaker]

I have all of "The Imagineering Field Guide Books" that have been published, created by Imagineers. The book intro includes Imagineer lingo that they use often and to cite what they say about what a "dark ride" is...they say "a term often used to describe the charming little Fantasyland attractions housed more or less completely inside show buildings, which allows for greater isolation of show elements and light control". Take it as you will, that's just how THEY consider it, which is essentially how many people see what a dark ride is.

I believe that, while a great Ursula Destruction scene could be great and epic, one of the best climactic Disney moments, it does absolutely nothing for the story.

Yeah, most of the imagineers I know would identify the stuff in Disneyland's Fantasyland as a being "dark rides", the term dark did come from the use of dark (UV) lights, despite what anybody says. I have never heard an imagineer call Small World a dark ride, or Pirates a dark ride.

In fairness, here an excerpt of Rolly Crump talking about his idea for using incandescent in a dark ride,

CM: The Bear-y Tales is one of only a few dark rides that I can think of to mix black light with incandescent. Was that an innovation for you?
RC: Well, I had tried to do that for Walt Disney World—I wanted to mix the two. But management at that time still believed that, “If it’s a dark ride, it should only be UV lighting.” And I said . . .http://www.yesterland.com/bearytales.html

Traditionally, dark rides used mostly UV light, and were the smaller intimate rides in Fantasyland. I wouldn't really call Pirates a dark ride (and I don't any imagineer would!), because the scenes are vast and the lighting is used much differently, dark rides really are i the dark and tend to do more with less. LM has a massive show scene in white light, when Imagineers refer to dark rides, this is not, generally, what they are talking about.

I actually don't like the idea of a big Ursula destruction scene, but I also don't like how they also weave in the losing her voice with screens and flat stuff into the ride. Tony Baxter's original idea was to focus on the love story, and I think they should have done something with Sebastian other than just having him conduct music, like having a comedy scene, such as the one where the cook tries to cook him!

 

[Pixiedustmaker]

The term dark ride has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not a ride has uv lights. One of the biggest reaches I've read on this site and that's a major accomplishment,

It sure did. Read my post above, you see, at one point Disney management insisted upon using UV light in dark rides, that is where the name dark ride came from. Dark lights . . . in the dark. That the origins of the word.

 

[Cosmic Commando]

It sure did. Read my post above, you see, at one point Disney management insisted upon using UV light in dark rides, that is where the name dark ride came from. Dark lights . . . in the dark. That the origins of the word.

Maybe you're right, but your quote doesn't prove it. Disney didn't invent the dark ride, so their insistence on UV light during the time Rolly Crump is talking about does not really prove anything about a "dark ride". It could simply be them wanting to repeat the success they had had with Peter Pan, Snow White, etc. and not wanting to try something new (white light).

Also, I have never heard "dark light", only "black light".

 

[flynnibus]

You guys are arguing semantics that really are irrelevant to the heart of the discussion.

Even Eddie Sotto refered to Pooh and TLM as 'white light' as opposed to 'black light'.

Is Pooh or TLM closer to Pirates than it is to Peter Pan because it uses white light vs black light? I would argue no, because the attraction relies on smaller sets with a more intimate proximity, moving through show scenes with fixed perspectives.. rather than moving through large, open sets like pirates. Yes, TLM has the under the sea sequence, but that is one set, not the entire ride. As you can see, there is no reason to try to make hard constraints in what defines a ride as they are arbitrary and serve no purpose except to try to classify things after the fact.

 

[Pixiedustmaker]

Maybe you're right, but your quote doesn't prove it. Disney didn't invent the dark ride, so their insistence on UV light during the time Rolly Crump is talking about does not really prove anything about a "dark ride". It could simply be them wanting to repeat the success they had had with Peter Pan, Snow White, etc. and not wanting to try something new (white light).

Also, I have never heard "dark light", only "black light".

Oh, sorry, I seem to have tripped myself up in the terminology.

Rides using black lights were mostly dark, as UV doesn't give off as much light, and the most of the light coming from when the UV hits special paints which reflect back a color different than the UV. I'd have to research about pre-Disneyland dark rides, the use of UV light and special paint became a fad in the 1950s.

 

[Pixiedustmaker]

You guys are arguing semantics that really are irrelevant to the heart of the discussion.

Even Eddie Sotto refered to Pooh and TLM as 'white light' as opposed to 'black light'.

Is Pooh or TLM closer to Pirates than it is to Peter Pan because it uses white light vs black light?

I think that the advantages of dark rides are that you don't have a lot of light being thrown around, so you can "get away" with flat-cut outs and certain effects, such as the "train" which runs over Toad in this dark ride. It is nothing but lights.

The point I was trying to make is that Mermaid is not really a "dark ride" (outside of the use of UV which is a staple of dark rides), because you can see a lot of stuff that would normally be hidden in dark rides by painting it black, such as the metal holding the twirling fish, is plainly visible in LM's white ligt. The scenes at the end of the ride look "fake" and plasticky because of the copious use of white light.

Interestingly, they took steps to make LM more like a dark ride by adding UV lights prior to the entrance of Ursula's cave, and the "kiss the girl" scene used to have almost pure white incandescent on the figurs, but I think they changed it to where you've got blue light falling through a "leaf" pattern, thus manipulating lighting effects to provide the feel.

Building dark rides was an artistry in itself, selecting paints which looked poor under white lights, but which looked proper under UV. When Disney artisans refer to dark rides, or maybe now "classic dark rides", there is a sense of this artistry and use of mostly dark sets to tell the story.

Interestingly, the opening scenes of the dark ride portin of RSR use blue light in an effective way, along with low light levels to perfectly recreate a night scene. (You might get some UV spectrum with blue LED, an effect I have noticed). This is what I think of as a next gen dark ride scene, not the lighting in Mermaid which, for the most part, is the showy Small World lights which show everything. The Ursula scene in LM is similar to a dark ride, IMHO, as darkness is used to obscure/hide details, and the contrast between that and Ursula's magic ball is what sells the scene.

I wouldn't call Pooh a dark ride as the white light shows pretty much everything, thus making the flat sets poop out, at least in my mind. Which is OK, as Pooh's Adventures mostly didn't happen during the night, if you look at the Tokyo version, there is great use of incandescent light to tell the story, but some other versions of the ride don't manipulate light and lightning effects nearly this well.

 

[UberMouse]

This is the first new ride at WDW that I have said to myself, meh, if the line is short I will ride it. It could have been much better.