Dumbo and Peter Pan rides set for removal?

Californian Elitist

Well-Known Member

Brer Oswald

Well-Known Member
“What makes the red man red?”

What’s so bad about it? Granted, I don’t even think it’s accurate because Native Americans don’t even look the slightest bit red to me but where in the song are their any racist lyrics putting down Native Americans? It’s only “problematic” because of the atrocities that happened to Native Americans centuries ago. All of the Disney movies and attractions that are “problematic” now are like 6 degrees of separation problematic.

In the song don’t they make a joke like the red man is red because he got embarrassed or something like that?
It’s not necessarily textbook racism, but calling Natives “red skins” or “red men” is an inaccurate and generalized term. The song is playful satire (of the era) at best, and pretty ignorant at worst. I see why people are offended. I understand why some aren’t. That’s why detailed disclaimers are the best way to go here. Most people would have thought nothing of this in 1953 because many thought referring to natives as “red skins” was acceptable. Today, we know that it is not acceptable. Times change. Context does matter.

As for the natives in the ride, they really don’t add anything. Do they really need to stick around?
 

1HAPPYGHOSTHOST

Well-Known Member
It’s not necessarily textbook racism, but calling Natives “red skins” or “red men” is an inaccurate and generalized term. The song is playful satire (of the era) at best, and pretty ignorant at worst. I see why people are offended. I understand why some aren’t. That’s why detailed disclaimers are the best way to go here. Most people would have thought nothing of this in 1953 because many thought referring to natives as “red skins” was acceptable. Today, we know that it is not acceptable. Times change. Context does matter.

As for the natives in the ride, they really don’t add anything. Do they really need to stick around?
Yes. they are part of the movie and should be part of the ride. they help tell the tale as you travel through neverland
 

mickEblu

Well-Known Member
It’s not necessarily textbook racism, but calling Natives “red skins” or “red men” is an inaccurate and generalized term. The song is playful satire (of the era) at best, and pretty ignorant at worst. I see why people are offended. I understand why some aren’t. That’s why detailed disclaimers are the best way to go here. Most people would have thought nothing of this in 1953 because many thought referring to natives as “red skins” was acceptable. Today, we know that it is not acceptable. Times change. Context does matter.

As for the natives in the ride, they really don’t add anything. Do they really need to stick around?

I agree with all this. I would never condone anyone calling a Native American a redskin in any derogatory way. But the song from Disney’s Peter Pan from 1953 I think is fine. They re not even removing it from Disney + so I don’t see why the Indians need to be removed from the ride. With that said, I wouldn’t miss them. Tiger Lily I think should be safe as she’s not one of the caricature “red” people.
 

Sharon&Susan

Well-Known Member
Yes. they are part of the movie and should be part of the ride. they help tell the tale as you travel through neverland
Would it really change anything narratively if (for example) put the Lost Boys in front of the Hangman Tree there instead on that alcove?
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Or have Tinkerbell trapped inside Captain Hook's lantern?
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Brer Oswald

Well-Known Member
Yes. they are part of the movie and should be part of the ride. they help tell the tale as you travel through neverland
George Darling is a part of the movie, but I don’t see him on the actual ride. Them sitting on a patch of grass helps tell the story? I always looked at it as more of a cameo appearance.
I agree with all this. I would never condone anyone calling a Native American a redskin in any derogatory way. But the song from Disney’s Peter Pan from 1953 I think is fine. They re not even removing it from Disney + so I don’t see why the Indians need to be removed from the ride. With that said, I wouldn’t miss them. Tiger Lily I think should be safe as she’s not one of the caricature “red” people.
I don’t think the song is that bad either, but I’m able to contextualize it’s inclusion based on my knowledge of the era. Not everyone can, which is why a disclaimer in front of the film makes sense. A disclaimer isn’t so easy for a ride, not is it worth it for a cameo appearance. Perhaps if the caricatures had little to no potential to offend, things would be different. But aside from maybe Tiger Lily, that is not the case.
 

mickEblu

Well-Known Member
George Darling is a part of the movie, but I don’t see him on the actual ride. Them sitting on a patch of grass helps tell the story? I always looked at it as more of a cameo appearance.

I don’t think the song is that bad either, but I’m able to contextualize it’s inclusion based on my knowledge of the era. Not everyone can, which is why a disclaimer in front of the film makes sense. A disclaimer isn’t so easy for a ride, not is it worth it for a cameo appearance. Perhaps if the caricatures had little to no potential to offend, things would be different. But aside from maybe Tiger Lily, that is not the case.

They don’t need a disclaimer for the ride. They aren’t playing the song.
 

1HAPPYGHOSTHOST

Well-Known Member
George Darling is a part of the movie, but I don’t see him on the actual ride. Them sitting on a patch of grass helps tell the story? I always looked at it as more of a cameo appearance.

I don’t think the song is that bad either, but I’m able to contextualize it’s inclusion based on my knowledge of the era. Not everyone can, which is why a disclaimer in front of the film makes sense. A disclaimer isn’t so easy for a ride, not is it worth it for a cameo appearance. Perhaps if the caricatures had little to no potential to offend, things would be different. But aside from maybe Tiger Lily, that is not the case.
He is not important to the plot or neverland.
 

PiratesMansion

Well-Known Member
“What makes the red man red?”

What’s so bad about it? Granted, I don’t even think it’s accurate because Native Americans don’t even look the slightest bit red to me but where in the song are their any racist lyrics putting down Native Americans? It’s only “problematic” because of the atrocities that happened to Native Americans centuries ago. All of the Disney movies and attractions that are “problematic” now are like 6 degrees of separation problematic.

In the song don’t they make a joke like the red man is red because he got embarrassed or something like that?
I just rewatched the entirety of the Peter Pan Indian segments, and while what is or is not offensive is could be debated, there are at least a few things that I think most people would find troubling if they thought about what they were watching on any level. Here are just a few things that stood out to me:

First, why are they even looking for the Indians? Because they want to go hunting, and though animals are suggested, John wants to see the aborigines. To which Peter says "Alright men. Go out and capture a few Indians." So what's the goal here? To antagonize them. In "Following the Leader" they sing:
We're off to fight the Injuns, the Injuns, the Injuns,
We're off to fight the Injuns because he told us so.

Not because the Indians, so far as we know, actually did anything to Peter and the lost boys, but because why not? We're bored. Let's go bother them for fun! And it'll be entertaining for John and Michael, the visiting tourists. Bad implications, and we haven't even met the Indians yet.

But let's get to the actual scenes. Scene 1: the kidnapping scene and aftermath. Times are approximate.
~33:40 Indian tracks spotted. John helpfully points out that they're an Algonquin tribe and they're "quite savage, you know." Immediate response from others? "Let's go get'em." John rejects the idea, not because idea bad, but because they need a strategy.
34:40 John: "Now remember, the Indian is cunning but not intelligent."
35:00 generally speaking if your minority characters don't even have eyes you're not headed in the direction of a positive depiction.
1615691743531.png

35:35 Caricatured Indian Chief, check. Broken English, check. "Me no spoof 'em." Eyes that make him appear crazy, check.
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Scene 2.
50:13 First thing the Indians do after making Peter Pan an honorary Indian is pass around drugs.
Chief: "Teach 'em paleface brother all about red man." John, as if he's learning about a rare animal at a zoo: "Good, this should be most enlightening."
50:23 One of the lost boys asks "when did [the red man] first say "Ugh?" Because that's how Indians talk, you know.
I suppose in general you could debate just how offensive the song is, but I think most people would agree it's not great, much in the same way that calling Native Americans red is not really ok anymore (when precisely it became outdated I cannot say, but I'd wager it was before my lifetime and I'm in my thirties), so making a whole song about this is...not great optics. There's a reason that songs like this and "We Are Siamese" are pretty much extinct now.
51:16 Good news, now that they're not trying to kill our heroes, the Indians have gained eyes. The bad news is that they're slits most of the time, noticeably a problem that no non-Indian character in the film has. The only Indian characters to consistently have actual eyes are Tiger Lily and the chief (but he has crazy eyes). Most everyone else looks like this:
1615692079969.png
~52:10 Wendy's reaction to the boys joining the Indian dances is kinda akin to a horrified mother worrying that her children will lose all that civilized society taught them and "go native."

Just a few things that popped out immediately upon rewatching the scene.

Now, when the Peter Pan story was originally written and the Disney film were made, undoubtedly attitudes were different than they are today, but I can't exactly blame modern audiences for finding fault with that aspect of the finished film.
 
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MikeN

New Member
Mickey Melledrammer and other cartoons like Mickey's Man Friday aren't even on Disney+ with or without a disclaimer so they've already been cancelled in a way.

Why would an individual character like Mickey Mouse get "cancelled" for the minority of his cartoons? You can't watch Peter Pan on a children's account, but you can watch Peter Pan 2 or the Tinker Bell movies that take place in the same universe.

Stop with the fearmongering.
Fearmongering is a matter of perspective. Everyone has an opinion and pointing out what could be next is not fearmongering but a warning to the frog in the pot of boiling water who doesn't realize what is happening.

Just as the Song of the South or Mickey's Man Friday are not available for viewing by anyone on Disney+ because Executives deemed them as inappropriate, I think it is natural to ask what could be next?

Ten years ago who would have thought that we would even be having these conversations about what is, and is not, appropriate for children to view in today's world like Dr. Seuss or Pepe Le Pew.
 

Brer Oswald

Well-Known Member
@PiratesMansion A few things

"First, why are they even looking for the Indians? Because they want to go hunting, and though animals"
When the boys are captured, it is explained by the Lost Boys that this is merely a game that they play. They play fight with the Natives and whoever wins turns the other side loose after the game is over. This time, however, the Natives believe that the Lost Boys captured Tiger Lily and are lying about not knowing her whereabouts.

"Now remember, the Indian is cunning but not intelligent."
Right as this line is uttered, you see the Natives sneaking up on the crew, cleverly disguised as trees. It is supposed to be ironic. It is supposed to subvert the expectation based on what John just said. The Natives are intelligent because they get the best of the boys with their smarts.

The rest of what you said, I agree with.
 

PiratesMansion

Well-Known Member
@PiratesMansion A few things

"First, why are they even looking for the Indians? Because they want to go hunting, and though animals"
When the boys are captured, it is explained by the Lost Boys that this is merely a game that they play. They play fight with the Natives and whoever wins turns the other side loose after the game is over. This time, however, the Natives believe that the Lost Boys captured Tiger Lily and are lying about not knowing her whereabouts.

"Now remember, the Indian is cunning but not intelligent."
Right as this line is uttered, you see the Natives sneaking up on the crew, cleverly disguised as trees. It is supposed to be ironic. It is supposed to subvert the expectation based on what John just said. The Natives are intelligent because they get the best of the boys with their smarts.

The rest of what you said, I agree with.
I suppose the fact that it's a game is also explained in another "Follow the Leader" lyric too ("It's part of a game we play"). Still, "let's go hunt/fight the Injuns" and "let's go play with them" is an easy change they could have made to erase any ambiguity about what was happening.

The second instance, as you say, is ironic, but what John is saying would have been the viewpoint of most people alive in the early 20th century and, frankly, of many Americans in the 50's too, so it's still uncomfortable, IMO.

So while both of your critiques are valid, I'm not sure I'm willing to fully let the film off the hook in those instances even so. That said, I do appreciate that you have viewed the scenes in question before offering a rebuttal to those points (or at least have a very good memory of them).
 
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mickEblu

Well-Known Member
@PiratesMansion A few things

"First, why are they even looking for the Indians? Because they want to go hunting, and though animals"
When the boys are captured, it is explained by the Lost Boys that this is merely a game that they play. They play fight with the Natives and whoever wins turns the other side loose after the game is over. This time, however, the Natives believe that the Lost Boys captured Tiger Lily and are lying about not knowing her whereabouts.

"Now remember, the Indian is cunning but not intelligent."
Right as this line is uttered, you see the Natives sneaking up on the crew, cleverly disguised as trees. It is supposed to be ironic. It is supposed to subvert the expectation based on what John just said. The Natives are intelligent because they get the best of the boys with their smarts.

The rest of what you said, I agree with.

@PiratesMansion These are the two parts Of your summation that I believe could be found the most offensive. As Brer Oswald explains, its a set up to show that the Indians in fact are smart. If you just rewatched, I’m not sure why you would leave that part out of your post.
 

PiratesMansion

Well-Known Member
@PiratesMansion These are the two parts Of your summation that I believe could be found the most offensive. As Brer Oswald explains, its a set up to show that the Indians in fact are smart. If you just rewatched, I’m not sure why you would leave that part out of your post.
I missed them, to be honest. As I explained above in response to his post, I still don't think the filmmakers are fully off the hook for either of those even though those points do soften them.
 

mickEblu

Well-Known Member
I missed them, to be honest. As I explained above in response to his post, I still don't think the filmmakers are fully off the hook for either of those even though those points do soften them.

I’d say they obliterate them. Not soften them. But that’s my opinion. Again, this isn’t about what’s on the screen. It’s about the stuff that happened long before Peter Pan that makes people sensitive about it.... now 70 years later.
 

Brer Oswald

Well-Known Member
I suppose the fact that it's a game is also explained in another "Follow the Leader" lyric too ("It's part of a game we play"). Still, "let's go hunt/fight the Injuns" and "let's go play with them" is an easy change they could have made to erase any ambiguity about what was happening.

The second instance, as you say, is ironic, but what John is saying would have been the viewpoint of most people alive in the early 20th century and, frankly, of many Americans in the 50's too, so it's still uncomfortable, IMO.

So while both of your critiques are valid, I'm not sure I'm willing to fully let the film off the hook in those instances even so. That said, I do appreciate that you have viewed the scenes in question before offering a rebuttal to those points (or at least have a very good memory of them).
Firstly, there isn’t much ambiguity. The general stakes are right there in spoken dialogue. If it was only referred to in song lyric, it would be more ambiguous. Nevertheless, the slur in the lyric is still a slur.

With the second instance, yes that was the view point of many Americans. Disney themselves were poking fun of that false viewpoint. John claims that Natives aren’t intelligent, and in a moment of humour, the cartoon natives disprove that ignorant theory. It’s like any film that deals with racial tones. What the character says was racist, but that’s the point. He’s shown to be incorrect in his beliefs. They don’t get any rewards for being “ahead of the curve” with native depictions in this film, as proven through the character designs and song lyrics. But this line is not a piece of evidence against Disney.
 

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