Dumbo and Peter Pan rides set for removal?

Sharon&Susan

Well-Known Member
Well what are we going to do when the "Cancel Culture" finds out that Mickey Mouse used to dress in "Blackface"? As an example: Mickey's Mellerdrammer from 1933. So instead of worrying about Indians, Chinese caricatures, and some episodes of The Muppet Show, we should be concerned that Mickey will soon have to be sacrificed as well. Where is the line in the sand that denotes when enough is enough.
Mickey Melledrammer and other cartoons like Mickey's Man Friday aren't even on Disney+ with or without a disclaimer so they've already been cancelled in a way.

Why would an individual character like Mickey Mouse get "cancelled" for the minority of his cartoons? You can't watch Peter Pan on a children's account, but you can watch Peter Pan 2 or the Tinker Bell movies that take place in the same universe.

Stop with the fearmongering.
 

PiratesMansion

Well-Known Member
I just don't get it! I tried to think of what was so upsetting and "racist" in Peter pan, and all I could even think of was when the boys dressed up like Indians while playing!????
I told my grandson this and he just shook his head in disbelief and laughed. BTW, he is a native American and he thinks it's ridiculous.
If they wanted to, disney could go back on all old movies and cartoons and find "something" upsetting about them. The cancel culture is going too far, IMO. And it is MO, so no flaming please!
Have you watched Peter Pan recently?

There's an entire sequence from when Peter and the Lost Boys get captured (starting not that long after "Following the Leader") by the Indians that, shall we say, hasn't aged well, culminating in what is likely the most (at best) unfortunate song Disney's ever written, "What Makes the Red Man Red." If it was just Peter Pan and the lost boys pretending to be Indians it wouldn't be all that bad and probably something that could be dimissed as harmless "well, kids have imaginations and like to role play, and they especially did that in older times." But really it's not so much anything Peter Pan or the lost boys do than how the Indians are depicted, period, save for perhaps Tiger Lily.

And really, none of this has been a secret for some time. It was stark to me when I decided to rewatch the film as a teenager more than a decade ago, long before I (or most other people) started really thinking critically about any of these things. But because Pan is a classic, remains widely available, most adults haven't seen the classic Disney films in at least a decade and tend to only vaguely remember them (even here, some people look down on the animated films), and the company has never said or done anything with the film until this baby step of a measure right now (Disney has to pay the bills and keep the lights on, after all, and if you want to buy/consume Peter Pan everything, who were they to stop you?), it wasn't really focused on in the way that, say, Song of the South has been. In fact, it really underscores Disney's own hypocrisy on this issue, and the way that they, until very recently, piled all the problematic material blame onto Song of the South while other films with elements that were arguably just as bad or worse slid under the radar. The fact that so many people are unaware of some of the more questionable choices that were made in some of the classic films that have been freely available certainly seems to support the idea that Disney created its own time bomb with "Song of the South" and that if the film had been freely available and not focused on so intently by the company, far fewer people would have known or cared about SOTS.

Obviously it's all subjective to a degree, how offensive things may or may not be to different people, and I don't belong to any minority groups that have been negatively depicted in film by Disney to any significant degree. But the Indian segment of the film to me is the most racist segment Disney's done in any of their films, far worse than Dumbo, Aristocats, or anything else Disney has produced.

And lest anyone make presumptions, I don't particularly care what they do with that (as others have said, brief) segment of the ride, and I'm not advocating that the movie be censored or "cancelled." For the scene in the ride, they can keep it or change it, because it doesn't really bother me. I'm not Native American, it's not really my position to decide if it's offensive in the context of the attraction. But ultimately the depiction of the scene in the ride isn't the main problem.
 

EPCOTCenterLover

Well-Known Member
If you are not Native American/Indigenous/American Indian, it’s not up to you to decide what racist or problematic about Native/Indigenous/American Indian representation.
Clearly though, as that grandmother's example shows, different individuals within a specified ethnicity have different opinions about what is and isn't racist. Therein lies another problem- Who gets to decide in our new environment? Complicated for sure.
 

PiratesMansion

Well-Known Member
Clearly though, as that grandmother's example shows, different individuals within a specified ethnicity have different opinions about what is and isn't racist. Therein lies another problem- Who gets to decide in our new environment? Complicated for sure.
But it also depends on how much information you have.

If what you remember about the Peter Pan sequence is the main characters playing Indians and you haven't seen the film for some time, your opinion may well be very different from when you actually sit down and watch the film.

Now, people might still watch the movie and come out of it thinking it's fine, but based on the information we have no idea if the poster or her grandson had seen the film at all recently or realized what was actually depicted within that sequence. If the grandson is a child, it's not likely to register in the same way that adult's eyes would either.

And generally speaking, "hey person I know in minority group x, are you offended by this thing that I, a member of the majority group, think is ridiculous to be offended about that concerns your minority group?" interactions don't tend to be the most nuanced of conversations or be forums where people are able to speak freely on any given topic. Often in those interactions I find the person asking the question is usually more interested in having their opinion validated than in engaging in real discussion about the topic.

Now, maybe that person in the minority group may not actually know or care, and may genuinely share the opinion of the person asking the question, but that's certainly not always the case.
 
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Californian Elitist

Well-Known Member
Clearly though, as that grandmother's example shows, different individuals within a specified ethnicity have different opinions about what is and isn't racist. Therein lies another problem- Who gets to decide in our new environment? Complicated for sure.
I know there are different opinions within a specific race of people. That’s normal and their opinions are the only ones that matter when the situation applies to their race. And let’s be honest, those of the opinion that “it doesn’t bother me” regarding racism or very serious issues towards their own don’t tend to be very forward-thinking.
 

Brer Oswald

Well-Known Member
Exactly. After what happened with Splash I'm just preparing myself for other potential changes.
No.
In fact, it really underscores Disney's own hypocrisy on this issue, and the way that they, until very recently, piled all the problematic material blame onto Song of the South while other films with elements that were arguably just as bad or worse slid under the radar. The fact that so many people are unaware of some of the more questionable choices that were made in some of the classic films that have been freely available certainly seems to support the idea that Disney created its own time bomb with "Song of the South" and that if the film had been freely available and not focused on so intently by the company, far fewer people would have known or cared about SOTS.
They still do, and they possibly will forever. Peter Pan, Jungle Cruise, etc are all being looked at to dissuade those of us who are a bit more keen to the company’s history and its current hypocrisy.

But if you have a film that has issues, they can say “at least it’s not SOTS”. Long for the days of Walt and the stuff he created? Current management not doing it for you? “Well at least current Disney didn’t approve SOTS, or anything related to it like Walt and Eisner did!”. It’s easy to use something so widely inaccessible as the ultimate scapegoat. It really is the golden opportunity for them.
 

tpac24

Well-Known Member
People are entirely too sensitive if either of these movies/rides offends them. I will be honest if they do away with these two classics I will be selling my DVC and probably call it quits with the company.
 

Darkbeer1

Well-Known Member
I know there are different opinions within a specific race of people. That’s normal and their opinions are the only ones that matter when the situation applies to their race. And let’s be honest, those of the opinion that “it doesn’t bother me” regarding racism or very serious issues towards their own don’t tend to be very forward-thinking.
 

CaptinEO

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
Yes I am, why are you telling me that I'm not preparing myself for changes? They already changed one ride thus far post Splash.

It sucks but it's easier to accept Disney is a terrible company that makes poor decisions than to pretend they are even close to the same people who made Disneyland a great place decades ago.
 

Brer Oswald

Well-Known Member
Yes I am, why are you telling me that I'm not preparing myself for changes? They already changed one ride thus far post Splash.

It sucks but it's easier to accept Disney is a terrible company that makes poor decisions than to pretend they are even close to the same people who made Disneyland a great place decades ago.
No. People these days aren’t emotionally invested in Brer Rabbit. People are invested in Peter Pan and Dumbo. So while they can easily get away with making SOTS their scapegoat, they can’t for the other movies. It’s not like they want to anyways. Those movies make merchandise money.
 

CaptinEO

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
No. People these days aren’t emotionally invested in Brer Rabbit. People are invested in Peter Pan and Dumbo. So while they can easily get away with making SOTS their scapegoat, they can’t for the other movies. It’s not like they want to anyways. Those movies make merchandise money.
What's that have to do with my preparing myself for changes? I'm genuinely confused.
 

Homemade Imagineering

Well-Known Member
Splash was a ticking time bomb. It was only inevitable, that a re-theme would occur, whether you like it or not. The subject would’ve come up at some point anyway, and surely did last summer. It’s the only attraction that’s ever been connected to something so taboo, they’ve shunned SotS like there’s no tomorrow.

I highly doubt any other attraction will be altered dramatically, beyond recognition anytime soon. Let’s be realistic, people love Pan and Dumbo despite their controversial aspects, and there have been no signs of that love slowing down. SotS has been shunned now for much of Splash’s existence, and while the attraction is still one of Disney’s best, a technological milestone, and doesn’t contain any of the controversial elements from the movie, it’s ultimately tied to something extremely taboo in the eyes of the general public.
 

1HAPPYGHOSTHOST

Well-Known Member
Splash was a ticking time bomb. It was only inevitable, that a re-theme would occur, whether you like it or not. The subject would’ve come up at some point anyway, and surely did last summer. It’s the only attraction that’s ever been connected to something so taboo, they’ve shunned SotS like there’s no tomorrow.

I highly doubt any other attraction will be altered dramatically, beyond recognition anytime soon.
Pirate of the Caribbean would like to have a word with you, matey.
 

mickEblu

Well-Known Member
Have you watched Peter Pan recently?

There's an entire sequence from when Peter and the Lost Boys get captured (starting not that long after "Following the Leader") by the Indians that, shall we say, hasn't aged well, culminating in what is likely the most (at best) unfortunate song Disney's ever written, "What Makes the Red Man Red." If it was just Peter Pan and the lost boys pretending to be Indians it wouldn't be all that bad and probably something that could be dimissed as harmless "well, kids have imaginations and like to role play, and they especially did that in older times." But really it's not so much anything Peter Pan or the lost boys do than how the Indians are depicted, period, save for perhaps Tiger Lily.

And really, none of this has been a secret for some time. It was stark to me when I decided to rewatch the film as a teenager more than a decade ago, long before I (or most other people) started really thinking critically about any of these things. But because Pan is a classic, remains widely available, most adults haven't seen the classic Disney films in at least a decade and tend to only vaguely remember them (even here, some people look down on the animated films), and the company has never said or done anything with the film until this baby step of a measure right now (Disney has to pay the bills and keep the lights on, after all, and if you want to buy/consume Peter Pan everything, who were they to stop you?), it wasn't really focused on in the way that, say, Song of the South has been. In fact, it really underscores Disney's own hypocrisy on this issue, and the way that they, until very recently, piled all the problematic material blame onto Song of the South while other films with elements that were arguably just as bad or worse slid under the radar. The fact that so many people are unaware of some of the more questionable choices that were made in some of the classic films that have been freely available certainly seems to support the idea that Disney created its own time bomb with "Song of the South" and that if the film had been freely available and not focused on so intently by the company, far fewer people would have known or cared about SOTS.

Obviously it's all subjective to a degree, how offensive things may or may not be to different people, and I don't belong to any minority groups that have been negatively depicted in film by Disney to any significant degree. But the Indian segment of the film to me is the most racist segment Disney's done in any of their films, far worse than Dumbo, Aristocats, or anything else Disney has produced.

And lest anyone make presumptions, I don't particularly care what they do with that (as others have said, brief) segment of the ride, and I'm not advocating that the movie be censored or "cancelled." For the scene in the ride, they can keep it or change it, because it doesn't really bother me. I'm not Native American, it's not really my position to decide if it's offensive in the context of the attraction. But ultimately the depiction of the scene in the ride isn't the main problem.


“What makes the red man red?”

What’s so bad about it? Granted, I don’t even think it’s accurate because Native Americans don’t even look the slightest bit red to me but where in the song are their any racist lyrics putting down Native Americans? It’s only “problematic” because of the atrocities that happened to Native Americans centuries ago. All of the Disney movies and attractions that are “problematic” now are like 6 degrees of separation problematic.

In the song don’t they make a joke like the red man is red because he got embarrassed or something like that?
 

1HAPPYGHOSTHOST

Well-Known Member
“What makes the red man red?”

What’s so bad about it? Granted, I don’t even think it’s accurate because Native Americans don’t even look the slightest bit red to me but where in the song are their any racist lyrics putting down Native Americans? It’s only “problematic” because of the atrocities that happened to Native Americans centuries ago. All of the Disney movies and attractions that are “problematic” now are like 6 degrees of separation problematic.

In the song don’t they make a joke like the red man is red because he got embarrassed or something like that?
I am in a interracial relationship with my girlfriend. She is a Navajo. A hunter/gatherer that I read about in Social Studies. and she has nooo problem with the Peter Pan depiction of Native American's because she understand it is a cartoon for children.
 

Homemade Imagineering

Well-Known Member
Pirate of the Caribbean would like to have a word with you, matey.
PotC isn't connected to anything, as nearly as problematic as SotS in the eyes of the general public. Sure, Depp has had his fair amount of controversy, though most people have defended him in his situation. Sure, the attraction has been altered over the past couple decades in many ways, though I believe, despite how drastic some of those changes were, it's still PotC to me. Also, no one is asking for PotC to be heavily altered, and TWDC, last I checked, has shown signs of expanding the franchise in the near future.
 

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