Downtown Disney update

[jt04]

Well, that explains why there was some infrastructure work (to use Martin's word) being performed in there early this week. I thought it was odd that they would suddenly start working in that building with no plans. I'd love for the club to come back, but that's my own personal bias.

If the reopen it as a club along with Soundstage and 8 Trax they shouldn't be suprised if they start having the same issues as before. I'd be shocked if this is the plan.

What might work is limiting these venues to on-property guests only. We should know soon.

 

[Jim Handy]

If the reopen it as a club along with Soundstage and 8 Trax they shouldn't be suprised if they start having the same issues as before. I'd be shocked if this is the plan.

What might work is limiting these venues to on-property guests only. We should know soon.

I don't expect any of the clubs to open as a club again. Much of the lighting and sound equipment was sold and would be VERY expensive to replace.
I don't think the issues surrounding DtD are as deep as you think. They got it under control very quickly and it peaked after wheels were turning to close PI. And really, not all WDW guests are high class folk. Very little, actually.

 

[GoofGoof]

The smartest ones are the prospective lessees who understand WDPR has done much to damage the brand, and That the asking prices for rents no longer mirror the reality of the value associated with that partnership..,

Downtown Disney was packed with people the last few times I was there. Nowhere to park and hard to even walk around. Vendors don't care if the Yeti works or if the animatronics on Splash Mountain are broken or if Casey's Splash zone gives you diarrhea. They only care how many people come through their doors. If you are a vendor you are paying for foot traffic. It helps that the majority of the people who will come through your doors are dropping $5k plus on a vacation so they are more likely to spend some cash at your store, bar, restaurant.

 

[asianway]

Downtown Disney was packed with people the last few times I was there. Nowhere to park and hard to even walk around. Vendors don't care if the Yeti works or if the animatronics on Splash Mountain are broken or if Casey's Splash zone gives you diarrhea. They only care how many people come through their doors. If you are a vendor you are paying for foot traffic. It helps that the majority of the people who will come through your doors are dropping $5k plus on a vacation so they are more likely to spend some cash at your store, bar, restaurant.

Yet, no one is inking a deal...

 

[GoofGoof]

Yet, no one is inking a deal...

The asking price may be higher than people want to spend and some may have a problem with giving up control to Disney. We also are on the tail end of the Great Recession which was just after a long period of a declining economy starting with 9/11. There are probably a lot of reasons why Disney is not signing vendors on as quickly as they would like.

My only point is that I am not buying the argument that the Disney brand is tainted and that is why outside vendors don't want to sign on. Outside of this forum the vast majority of people and probably businesses still see Disney as a premium brand. Park attendance is up, not down and the Disney company in general is doing just fine (John Carter aside).

 

[asianway]

The asking price may be higher than people want to spend and some may have a problem with giving up control to Disney. We also are on the tail end of the Great Recession which was just after a long period of a declining economy starting with 9/11. There are probably a lot of reasons why Disney is not signing vendors on as quickly as they would like.

My only point is that I am not buying the argument that the Disney brand is tainted and that is why outside vendors don't want to sign on. Outside of this forum the vast majority of people and probably businesses still see Disney as a premium brand. Park attendance is up, not down and the Disney company in general is doing just fine (John Carter aside).

Orlando market share notwithstanding?

 

[jt04]

Yet, no one is inking a deal...

I have my doubts about that. Splitsville "inked a deal" when our local experts claimed no deals were pending. Same as they do now.

 

[GoofGoof]

Orlando market share notwithstanding?

MK attendance was up 1% year over year in 2011. Universal's Harry Potterland was up 29%. So yes they lost total market share to Universal in 2011 but their total numbers were still up not down and in line with the other Universal Orlando park, Sea World and Busch Gardens Tampa. The MK still had over 17M visitors. I doubt too many people are viewing this as a major hit on the Disney brand. I have no statistics about how many people go to DTD (not sure if this is ever made public) but from personal observation it still looks crowded to me.

 

[Tim_4]

You said tenant and I'm assuming you can't release the name, but can you give us a category? Shop? Restaurant? Club? Something else?

I'm not being secretive on this one. I really don't know. Ears are open.

 

[lazyboy97o]

Downtown Disney was packed with people the last few times I was there. Nowhere to park and hard to even walk around. Vendors don't care if the Yeti works or if the animatronics on Splash Mountain are broken or if Casey's Splash zone gives you diarrhea. They only care how many people come through their doors. If you are a vendor you are paying for foot traffic. It helps that the majority of the people who will come through your doors are dropping $5k plus on a vacation so they are more likely to spend some cash at your store, bar, restaurant.

Parking is packed over near the Marketplace because that is the destination of most. There is plenty of parking available the closer one gets to the West Side, and then there is a big lot on the other side of the old West Side bus stops. Parking is plentiful, you just have to be willing to walk.

Regardless of the excuses for why there are no tenants, it was nothing but stupid to close the clubs in the hope that somebody else would do the work. The decisions makers were arrogant fools for assuming that people would be knowing down the door to sign a lease. Regardless of the economic or other conditions, that is in no way a wise decision. What would happen to you if your boss gave you a project and you said your plan was to just wait until somebody else had a good solution?

I have my doubts about that. Splitsville "inked a deal" when our local experts claimed no deals were pending. Same as they do now.

Splitsville is a single deal and not on Pleasure Island. It is also not a unique concept or even much in fitting with your "unique to this place" theory. Ever find the stories about the horrors of Pleasure Island that Disney suppressed?

 

[Jim Handy]

For those bringing up parking...the lot way down on the other side of Cirque rarely has many vehicles. The plot has actually been looked at for future expansion since the West Side was built, and more recently as ideas for DtD have been thrown around.

 

[Tim_4]

There is plenty of parking available the closer one gets to the West Side.

Not on a Friday/Saturday night. Getting to the AMC sucks.

 

[GoofGoof]

Parking is packed over near the Marketplace because that is the destination of most. There is plenty of parking available the closer one gets to the West Side, and then there is a big lot on the other side of the old West Side bus stops. Parking is plentiful, you just have to be willing to walk.

Regardless of the excuses for why there are no tenants, it was nothing but stupid to close the clubs in the hope that somebody else would do the work. The decisions makers were arrogant fools for assuming that people would be knowing down the door to sign a lease. Regardless of the economic or other conditions, that is in no way a wise decision. What would happen to you if your boss gave you a project and you said your plan was to just wait until somebody else had a good solution?


Splitsville is a single deal and not on Pleasure Island. It is also not a unique concept or even much in fitting with your "unique to this place" theory. Ever find the stories about the horrors of Pleasure Island that Disney suppressed?

I agree with you. PI was great. Should have never been closed. It was an equally bad decision to close it without the vendors to take over. That being said I still don't beleive that the lack of vendors has anything to do with Disney's bad PR or tainting of the brand.

I did finally get a spot in the lot you all are referring to. We had a hard time getting reservations a few places. Maybe it was just a crowded time of year (beginning of march and June).

 

[lazyboy97o]

I agree with you. PI was great. Should have never been closed. It was an equally bad decision to close it without the vendors to take over. That being said I still don't beleive that the lack of vendors has anything to do with Disney's bad PR or tainting of the brand.

But it is not just Downtown Disney that people are not interested in signup up to join. Flamingo Crossing has also failed to attract tenants. There is something about Disney being the landlord that is turning people off.

Serious question, where do Downtown Disney Cast Members park?

 

[Tim_4]

But it is not just Downtown Disney that people are not interested in signup up to join. Flamingo Crossing has also failed to attract tenants. There is something about Disney being the landlord that is turning people off.

Serious question, where do Downtown Disney Cast Members park?

Across the street. If you're driving on Buena Vista with Downtown Disney on your left, the right side of the road is, in order, Typhoon Lagoon, Team Disney, Cast parking, Casting.

 

[jt04]

Parking is packed over near the Marketplace because that is the destination of most. There is plenty of parking available the closer one gets to the West Side, and then there is a big lot on the other side of the old West Side bus stops. Parking is plentiful, you just have to be willing to walk.

Regardless of the excuses for why there are no tenants, it was nothing but stupid to close the clubs in the hope that somebody else would do the work. The decisions makers were arrogant fools for assuming that people would be knowing down the door to sign a lease. Regardless of the economic or other conditions, that is in no way a wise decision. What would happen to you if your boss gave you a project and you said your plan was to just wait until somebody else had a good solution?


Splitsville is a single deal and not on Pleasure Island. It is also not a unique concept or even much in fitting with your "unique to this place" theory. Ever find the stories about the horrors of Pleasure Island that Disney suppressed?

Splisville is very much in keeping with my theory. You misunderstand because you want to.

My theory is that DTD should offer in one setting enough "unique to the guest" experiences as possible. A very small percentage of guests have likely experienced such a facility. Even if you add in other similar offerings around the country it is "unique" for most. Same with Bongos. Yes there are others but it will be new to the vast majority. Same with Cirque, HoB, DQ, RR, cutting edge AMC, PH, T-Rex, RFC and on and on.

So while these are not one of a kind experiences, everyone will find multiple venues that are unique to them. Disney should build on that theory. Familiar in a sense so as not to alienate guests, but unique to them. Especially by having such an eclectic mix in one place. The entire PI concept confused as many guests as it served I believe. It is never ever coming back. You are wasting your energy hoping it will. Neither are the clubs.

 

[Tim_4]

Splisville is very much in keeping with my theory. You misunderstand because you want to.

My theory is that DTD should offer in one setting enough "unique to the guest" experiences as possible. A very small percentage of guests have likely experienced such a facility. Even if you add in other similar offerings around the country it is "unique" for most. Same with Bongos. Yes there are others but it will be new to the vast majority. Same with Cirque, HoB, DQ, RR, cutting edge AMC, PH, T-Rex, RFC and on and on.

So while these are not one of a kind experiences, everyone will find multiple venues that are unique to them. Disney should build on that theory. Familiar in a sense so as not to alienate guests, but unique to them. Especially by having such an eclectic mix in one place. The entire PI concept confused as many guests as it served I believe. It is never ever coming back. You are wasting your energy hoping it will. Neither are the clubs.

I agree with you until the last two lines. If you want to disagree with the concept of PI, that's fine, but not on these grounds. You make the point that DTD should offer unique experiences. How is T-Rex unique but something like the Adventurer's Club is not? Yes, T-Rex is "different" but it is still a restaurant and restaurants exist all over the place. I happen to agree with you that it IS unique but just as T-Rex is unique among restaurants, Adventurer's Club was unique among bars/clubs.

Again, I'm not super gung ho about the PI concept in general (never actually experienced it) but I think this particular argument is misguided.

 

[John]

"The entire PI concept confused as many guests as it served I believe." JT would you please expand on this?

 

[lazyboy97o]

Splisville is very much in keeping with my theory. You misunderstand because you want to.

I understand your "theory" perfectly well. I think you are completely and totally wrong, just changing your vague words to fit whatever happens so that you can consistently claim to be right. Even if Disney was aiming for what you claim, there would be evidence after four years. It would require looking at specific properties and concepts and then pursuing them.

It is also not too different than what is happening at every half decently managed retail development, be it a strip mall or a lifestyle center like Downtown Disney. They all want a collection that is unique for the location, because otherwise there is no attraction to the development. Landlords will even contractually limit the offerings of tenants so that they do no overlap and create inter-development competition and product/experience saturation. You once again try to twist basic sense into something grander that only your so-called wisdom can deduce.

 

[John]

I agree with you until the last two lines. If you want to disagree with the concept of PI, that's fine, but not on these grounds. You make the point that DTD should offer unique experiences. How is T-Rex unique but something like the Adventurer's Club is not? Yes, T-Rex is "different" but it is still a restaurant and restaurants exist all over the place. I happen to agree with you that it IS unique but just as T-Rex is unique among restaurants, Adventurer's Club was unique among bars/clubs.

Again, I'm not super gung ho about the PI concept in general (never actually experienced it) but I think this particular argument is misguided.

To expand on this....PI was extremely unique when it opened. Where else in the country was there a complex like this that celebrated New Years eve every night with a countdown fireworks etc? Since many places have opened such as PI. I cant believe I am going to say this but I think JT is correct in one aspect. I dont think PI will reopen as it was or any variation. BUT.....yes there is a but. I do think they will open a club or two. How can you not.

Every one has speculated on what might or might not happen with PI/DTD, what facts we do know is that we have Splitsville that will open and a refurbed AMC...a refurbed T Rex and a couple of not so unique anytown mall USA stores. This in the last four years.The only real new addition would be Splitsville....oh and of course those trendy new not so unique stores. So if this TREND continues we may have Orlando's newest outdoor mall.....yeaaaa