Doubting Avatar

Weather_Lady

Well-Known Member
I admit I tend to cling to any bit of information suggesting that Avatarland ISN'T going to happen, simply because I found the movie to be visually stunning but otherwise over-hyped, shallow and ham-handed with its conservation message. Also, as a previous poster stated, at this point it's also out-of-date and stale.

Beastly Kingdom, on the other hand, would seem to appeal to a far broader fan-base, and wouldn't be dependent on the longevity of a particular flash-in-the-pan film's popularity - how I wish the rumor were that THIS is what was going to happen in the Animal Kingdom. But again, that's just my wishful thinking being projected, and having to block out all of the "official word" that suggests that a prime piece of Disney real estate is instead going to be devoted to something in which I have no interest. It's like Toontown all over again... :eek:
 

ChrisM

Well-Known Member
I admit I tend to cling to any bit of information suggesting that Avatarland ISN'T going to happen, simply because I found the movie to be visually stunning but otherwise over-hyped, shallow and ham-handed with its conservation message. Also, as a previous poster stated, at this point it's also out-of-date and stale.

Beastly Kingdom, on the other hand, would seem to appeal to a far broader fan-base, and wouldn't be dependent on the longevity of a particular flash-in-the-pan film's popularity - how I wish the rumor were that THIS is what was going to happen in the Animal Kingdom. But again, that's just my wishful thinking being projected, and having to block out all of the "official word" that suggests that a prime piece of Disney real estate is instead going to be devoted to something in which I have no interest. It's like Toontown all over again... :eek:

Avatar is "out-of-date and stale" but Beastly Kingdom, a design which is over 15 years old and has had its signature attraction already effectively built in a competing theme park which has already been re-themed, is somehow still relevant and fresh? Of course we still have folks pining away for the Western River Expedition. Nothing really packs that "wow" factor like a 50 year old concept.

No mental gymnastics are required to rationalize your preferences for attractions. Just saying you like something more than something else is perfectly acceptable.
 

ellie-badge

Well-Known Member
Avatar is "out-of-date and stale" but Beastly Kingdom, a design which is over 15 years old and has had its signature attraction already effectively built in a competing theme park which has already been re-themed, is somehow still relevant and fresh?

While I can agree with you and see your point, I think that, if Disney were to have done it first, they'd have made their version of Dueling Dragons, as well as everything else they'd have built, on a much more memorable and grander scale. I mean, ancient attractions like its a small world, Peter Pan, Haunted Mansion, and Pirates are still bringing in crowds, as well as the more intense rides like Splash, Big Thunder, and Space Mountain, so I don't doubt that whatever Disney would have built involving the dragons would have lasted much longer than what Universal had built.

Also, if I'm not mistaken, their re-theming of Dueling Dragons didn't really change the original story too much... it's still supposed to be two dragons duking it out, only instead of fire and ice, they were changed to the dragons featured in Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire. Which doesn't make much sense, as the dragons never battled with each other in the books or movies, but whatever.

Erm... if that wasn't what you meant in your post, I'm sorry for butting in.
 

FLYbyNITE

Active Member
Just to throw my 2 cents into this debate, Avatar(Land) seems to be a bit of a Panic move to me. While I'm sure Disney can come up with some great ideas for this, I have two concerns. One, much is being speculated about the sequels, what if the sequels flop or are never made at all (very likely possibilities)? I don't think Avatar has the kind of star power to drive a park as one big hit. My other concern is, Why pay all that money to Cameron (and give him decision making power also)? Disney is such a vast franchise they shouldn't have to bow to no one, they didn't for Rowling, they shouldn't for Cameron. Everyone seems to think everything needs to be Themed to something else, good (and original) ideas can be just as successful in the long run.
 

TP2000

Well-Known Member
Avatar isn't cancelled.
It has had some developmental issues, and is moving slowly, but as of now it is still officially active.
Whether or not it remains that way....

I have to think the Burbank team is realizing the Avatar concept was a huge mistake.

Want proof?... Go to your local Target. Look for Avatar toys or childrens clothes or coloring books or birthday party supplies. None of that exists in any big box store in America. Heck, look for an Avatar DVD at Target and you won't find any.

This Halloween count how many little kids come to your door dressed as an Avatar character. There will be none. And you didn't see any kids in Avatar costumes last Halloween, did you? Kids don't dress up as Avatar for Halloween, and they don't play Avatar in the school yard.

The concept was a huge mistake. Someone has to see that before Avatarland gets built.
 

ellie-badge

Well-Known Member
Just to throw my 2 cents into this debate, Avatar(Land) seems to be a bit of a Panic move to me. While I'm sure Disney can come up with some great ideas for this, I have two concerns. One, much is being speculated about the sequels, what if the sequels flop or are never made at all (very likely possibilities)? I don't think Avatar has the kind of star power to drive a park as one big hit. My other concern is, Why pay all that money to Cameron (and give him decision making power also)? Disney is such a vast franchise they shouldn't have to bow to no one, they didn't for Rowling, they shouldn't for Cameron. Everyone seems to think everything needs to be Themed to something else, good (and original) ideas can be just as successful in the long run.

Precisely, I couldn't agree more. As for giving him the power to make decisions, though, I can understand. Although I myself didn't like it too much, Avatar is his creation, and if anybody out there has ever written a story, made a short film, or even drawn a picture that they really liked and were proud of, you'd understand the immense feeling of attachment he has to it. Metaphorically speaking, Avatar is his baby, and he'd probably want to watch over any and all changes or expansions associated with his baby like a hawk. Kinda like John Lasseter and his attachment to all of his films and franchises, and of course Walt Disney with all of his.
 

FLYbyNITE

Active Member
Precisely, I couldn't agree more. As for giving him the power to make decisions, though, I can understand. Although I myself didn't like it too much, Avatar is his creation, and if anybody out there has ever written a story, made a short film, or even drawn a picture that they really liked and were proud of, you'd understand the immense feeling of attachment he has to it. Metaphorically speaking, Avatar is his baby, and he'd probably want to watch over any and all changes or expansions associated with his baby like a hawk. Kinda like John Lasseter and his attachment to all of his films and franchises, and of course Walt Disney with all of his.

While I agree that Cameron "Should" have imput in such matters, you have to wonder at what price? My point with Cameron is simple, the money they will pay him alone, up front and over time, could be better off going to other things. Why not put that money into original ideas instead of buying and building off other companies trademarks.
 

yoda_5729

Well-Known Member
I don't doubt Avatar will be made, and maybe it will be popular and I am wrong about my bad feelings about it. However I do think some things need to be addressed...

Aliens? - Disney's Animal Kingdom does focus on animals, and even fictional ones at that. However in the entire history of culture, aliens have been done hundreds of times. Nothing about Avatar's aliens are noteworthy and there is no connection between them and man in real life. What I mean by this is, Dragons and Yetuis have long been mythicized as being real, as people even go out looking for them. They affect the cultures of that region and become legendary. Dragons for example have effected dozens of cultures including notably China. Avatar has none of that. There never has been an expedition in real life to go find the Na'Vi. As aliens go, the perceived Roswell Aliens, Yoda, Superman, Klingons, Optimus Prime and dozens of others have had far more reaching effect on society then Avatar ever has or will. Though it bombed as a movie John Carter has had far more influence as it inspired Avatar.
-John Carter when on Mars his duplicate is asleep on Earth
-Upon arriving he has powers beyond what he used to
-Main character falls in love with the alien princess and fights for her cause.
-Main character chooses to live on then alien world as apposed to go back home
At least John carter has been around for 100 years and has influenced our culture. Avatar has done nothing except be a very successful movie. John Carter influenced among others Star Wars, Avatar, and Superman (originally Superman couldn't fly and could only "leap tall buildings in a single bound). Cameron even stated Carter was the influence of Avatar, the only difference was he made the planet more lush and tropical then the dry, desert martian surface. At least Woola and the White Apes have appeared in comics and other mediums. Lord of the Rings has far more cultural significance and legendary animals then does Avatar.

Conservation? - Yes it is true conservation is prevalent in Avatar, but that's the case for hundreds of movies and stories. Superman (another alien) comes to earth to protect it so that what happened to Krypton does not happen to the Earth. Optimus Prime (another alien) comes to Earth to protect it from having the same fate as Cybertron. Wall-E unquestionably has a conservation message, but he hardly fits in at Animal Kingdom since Wall-E is a robot. What really makes Avatar any different. It's animals are meaningless for the most part. These threads have been going on for a long time, yet no one mentions the great and awesome animals were even talking about. Wall-E cockroach friend is better known then the animals in Avatar. Avatar had that one cat thingy, the hammerheaded rhino guy, that pseudo-dragon thing they rode around in and the Na'Vi. Hardly what I would call headliners. Pocahontas, Fern Gulley, Mighty Joe Young, all have conservation messages...to think Avatars is abopve this or even better done to me is pushing it.

Cultural significance?- Avatar has very little in the grand scheme of things. It hasn't branched out into other forms of media. few people on the street can name characters from it. I guarantee more people are familiar with the Kraken in Pirates then they are any animal from Avatar. Dragons, Pegasus, unicorn, Loch ness Monster, Godzilla, minotaur, Hydras, all easily dwarf anything remotely associated with Avatar. Though Universal did an area on mythic animals, it hardly means that is completely covered by any stretch of the imagination. There are hundreds of rides you could make involving dragons. Dueling Dragons is hardly the only option there.

Sci-Fi Planet - Animal Kingdom to this point is very routed in Earth, which the Na'Vi haven't even been on. In order to experience the environment, Pandora will have to be the name of the land, which is a completely different planet. Do you just walk in and poof your on the planet. Do you have to ride something to get there? Everything humanoid in Avatar is mechanical and war related. Are those giant mech like suits going to be in Animal Kingdom? They hardly fit in.

I very much like Disney, and Animal Kingdom and I see this as a money grab that I believe will hurt the park. Your investing a ton of money and land into a franchise that though it was successful, is hardly historic. LOTS of movies were big movies at one point and fade. It's utterly idiotic that Star Wars has one building, but Avatar is getting it's own land??? Indiana Jones has one show, but Avatar is getting it's own land??? Not to mention One Hundred and One Dalmatians, a movie Disney owns, and a movie bigger then Avatar when figuring inflation has little to nothing in the parks. Wall-E.....nothing. Animal Kingdom has no bears, no oceans, little Australia, and little Amazon represented. Instead of going those routes we're going to make an entire section based on a movie people on the street can't even name a character from?? I think they are trying to exploit Avatar's box-office to get more people to come to Animal Kingdom. From a business standpoint it makes immediate sense, but in the long run it doesn't as Star Wars, Indy, Harry Potter etc have shelf life. Avatar as we've already seen hasn't. When Disney builds attractiosn they look to them as they will be there for a long time, unlike most other them parks. More kids associate the word Avatar with The Last Airbender cartoon then do the movie. With Disney's finances they could even exploit the popularity of their rivals and try to be the first zoo in the US with a Tazmanian Devil, or they could exploit the fame of Madagascar and get more animals from that island since it is so unique.Pandas are popular due to the animal themselves and Kung Fu Panda, but they aren't going to do that either.

To me sticking Avatar in Animal Kingdom amounts to sticking Optimus Prime in Animal Kingdom. They arte both aliens, and though Avatars message was far more prevalent then transformers, they both are basically the same thing. The only difference is people have been able to name Optimus Prime, Bumbkebee, and megatron for 3 decades.
 

wickedsoccer22

Active Member
I still don't understand why so many people are vehemently opposed to a new area of a stale park that could be amazingly detailed and scenic. Especially when the alternative could be.. nothing.
 

jt04

Well-Known Member
Rohde is largely doing the "corporate thing".
He of course knows that DAK needs further development, and is certainly glad to see a large project get sent his way, but Avatar wasn't at the top of his wish list.

If he was hoping more for a Mysterious Island/Jules Verne/Mystic Manor type land then they should listen to him more because that has potential to be the greatest "land" ever. Like an Adventurers Land. I know I am preaching to the choir.
 

Mike K

Active Member
If he was hoping more for a Mysterious Island/Jules Verne/Mystic Manor type land then they should listen to him more because that has potential to be the greatest "land" ever. Like an Adventurers Land. I know I am preaching to the choir.

That truly would be an impressive land to be seen. The potential for a project like that is literally endless. Regardless, I'm really pleased that Animal Kingdom is getting a major expansion. I think it's a gem of a park and deserves more attention.
 

TP2000

Well-Known Member
If he was hoping more for a Mysterious Island/Jules Verne/Mystic Manor type land then they should listen to him more because that has potential to be the greatest "land" ever. Like an Adventurers Land. I know I am preaching to the choir.

I would have thought the next "lands" to be added to DAK would be Australia or South America. You could also do a major attraction and exhibit on the Arctic. There are several continents with unique animals and environments that are still lacking in DAK.

Instead they pick a non-Disney movie about an alien planet and run with it way out into left field. And it's a movie that sells absolutely no merchandise at Target or Toys R Us, inspires no Halloween costumes or birthday party themes, shows up on no ones Christmas list, and has generally very little resonance with anyone under the age of 12.

That one is a real head scratcher. o_O
 

jt04

Well-Known Member
I would have thought the next "lands" to be added to DAK would be Australia or South America. You could also do a major attraction and exhibit on the Arctic. There are several continents with unique animals and environments that are still lacking in DAK.

Instead they pick a non-Disney movie about an alien planet and run with it way out into left field. And it's a movie that sells absolutely no merchandise at Target or Toys R Us, inspires no Halloween costumes or birthday party themes, shows up on no ones Christmas list, and has generally very little resonance with anyone under the age of 12.

That one is a real head scratcher. o_O

I agree but at the same time I can imagine some amazing potential with it. Personally I have always hoped for a steam punk aesthetic such as Discovery Bay. I think that works at DAK a bit better.

Let's hope Lasseter gets the final say. I trust his judgement 100%.
 

yoda_5729

Well-Known Member
I still don't understand why so many people are vehemently opposed to a new area of a stale park that could be amazingly detailed and scenic. Especially when the alternative could be.. nothing.

My view on it is this....

If it makes a kid happy and is fun, then yes it is a positive of course, and usually that's what Disney makes, so looking at it that way it's fine....

However, I would state that your opinion of Animal Kingdom being a "stale park" is your opinion and not really routed in fact. It' still easily exceeds Islands of Adventure and Universal in terms of attendance, and still has a lot of potential. I know many people who love Animal Kingdom, though understandably it is less then the other parks, though it's newer and is competing against monumentally cheaper zoos that have been around for decades.

My argument is they are spending a ton of money on the park, but for this??? they could do thousands of different things with the park that are far more closely tied to Animal Kingdom then this.

It's like Indiana Jones and the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull. People had been waiting decades for a new Indy movie, and finally after all this time they made one. And a lot of people looked at it with wide eyes saying "This is what you came up with?? You could have had him do dozens upon dozens of adventures and after years of waiting this was the best you came up with?" It left so many fans fuming that it actually to some degree hurt the Indiana Jones franchise as many people now feel they hate all the movies strictly because the only one they had seen, the last one, they felt was bad.My biggest negative is if it doesn't fit in, it will eventually have to be rethemed or taken down because it was a bad idea, in my opinion.

I have no problem with Avatar in Hollywood Studios. None. Animal Kingdom is based around animals. No one has named a single animal from the movie. I hardly think of Yoda as an animal, though in the Avatar sense he is, so maybe he should be in Animal Kingdom. Fame wise he is 10x more famous then they are.

For example you said "amazingly detailed and scenic" for what Pandora could be. you are exactly right, it could be, but so could Atlantis, so could Shangri-La, so could Madagascar, and any number of other environments. Atlantis is perceived as Earth, so is ri-La and Madagascar is unquestionably. Instead of doing those ideas, we're reaching into outer space, and of the dozens of franchises up there, we are pushing Star Wars into the back room with one building because Avatar needs a whole land in a park it is debatable at best it should even be in. Walt was about theming and HATED when he saw a frontierland employee in Tomorrowland. That's the reason for the Utiladors. Now we are going to put blue humanoids in with lions and tigers. And the catch the blue characters aren't even the Smurfs.
 

yoda_5729

Well-Known Member
A friend of mine sent me this article from the New York Times a while ago about the tough decisions that zoos have to make in relation to what animals they can care for. Of special note is the area about building costs and how some animals that are not headliners are often times ignored though we could care for them, as we spend thousands on other animals that are quite prevalent in nature but are headliners, so they get the money. It's a tough call either way, but this was part of why I wasn't a huge fan of Avatar. Animals truly do need all the help they can get, and the funding for this project could be used in dozens of ways to do research and treatments for animals. I'm not saying Disney doesn't as I'm well aware of the conservation funds and Disneynature, but to me Animals should always be the crucial element of the park, and if guests aren't as interested in that, then there are other parks for them to visit.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/28/s...ave-some-species-letting-others-die.html?_r=1
 

FLYbyNITE

Active Member
I still don't understand why so many people are vehemently opposed to a new area of a stale park that could be amazingly detailed and scenic. Especially when the alternative could be.. nothing.

Despite my posts, I am not “vehemently opposed” to Avatarland. If this was a well thought out project that can be exciting and original, than I say “Hello Pandora” Unfortunately, like the OP tried to point out, there seems to be a lot of resistance and doubt seeping from Disney itself. To me, it looks like Disney needed an announcement more than it needed an attraction at that time, due to all the Potter hype.

The problem here is that Universal needed Potter, where Disney doesn’t need Avatar. And, like it or not, Avatar will never be Potter in terms of popularity and merchandising (which is what I think Disney is now discovering). Just like the FLE excited it’s fan base, I think all Disney truly needed to do was announce (and than follow through) with a AKE, which may or may not have included themes used in Avatar.
 

cookiee_munster

Well-Known Member
like a lot of people on here are saying, Avatar was pretty much a direct response to Potter at IOA. Disney went with the highest grossing film of all time, unfortunately not the highest grossing franchise of all time... i guess we still have to see these sequels to avatar, but i have a feeling they won't gross in as much money as the first purely because the original was something *new* and had that *oooh aaah* factor what with all the special effects and 3D and what not. people get tired quickly.
 

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