Does Michael Jackson belong at WDW?

[Evil Genius]

Just because someone recognizes that they hold themselves and their children to moral standards does not make them any higher or lower than anyone else. It's not a comparison, it's a choice.

This all boils down to two things:

1) Do you accept that there is a TRUTH, an absolute right and a wrong, a good and bad, that applies to everyone?

2) Do you choose to avoid the wrong in the world, or help your children avoid and discern the wrong in the world?

By the above statement you are inferring that your "morals" are the right ones and others who may adhere to slightly different morals or ethics are wrong.

1) Yes there is an absolute truth. In the MJ situation we don't know what that truth is now do we? Outside of the law "right" , "wrong", "good" and "bad" can be very relative terms. Especially when dealing with situations like Jackson's.

2) I confront the wrong in the world on a daily basis. A part of that is how I instruct my girls on the evils we face day in and day out. However I also am able to understand that there are some things they are too young to even be exposed to in terms of information and as such can make the better aspects of someone's career available to them without forcing them to confront the negatives. When they are old enough to understand and make their own educated decisions I'll bring the darker side of certain people to light.

 

[xdan0920]

Thank god you are not a judge HE WAS NEVER CONVICTED. Innocent till proven guilty and you come here and say you are glad he is dead.

I question your morals.

I am glad, and I am not interested in your thoughts on my morals. I am 100% sure that your opinion of my morals, of which you know nothing, is not what these forums, and more specifically this thread is all about.

Do yourself and everyone else a favor and stay away from personal attacks and judgements about other forum members. Especially ones you know literally nothing about. Thanks, have a good day.

 

[Mr. Morrow]

I am glad, and I am not interested in your thoughts on my morals. I am 100% sure that your opinion of my morals, of which you know nothing, is not what these forums, and more specifically this thread is all about.

Do yourself and everyone else a favor and stay away from personal attacks and judgements about other forum members. Especially ones you know literally nothing about. Thanks, have a good day.

You attacked me :shrug:

 

[EpcotServo]

From this thread all I can discern is that there's a far greater problem here than a 16+ year old film featuring a controversial celebrity. There's an essential fear and prejudice that, guilty or innocent, reminds me of an all too unruly time in human history. I can't put my finger on it, but it's a darkness that would make the entire world night if we could see it. I don't know what it is, but It just makes me feel uneasy for some reason.

The fault, dear Brutus, is not in our stars, but in ourselves.

 

[stlbobby]

From this thread all I can discern is that there's a far greater problem here than a 16+ year old film featuring a controversial celebrity. There's an essential fear and prejudice that, guilty or innocent, reminds me of an all too unruly time in human history. I can't put my finger on it, but it's a darkness that would make the entire world night if we could see it. I don't know what it is, but It just makes me feel uneasy for some reason.

The fault, dear Brutus, is not in our stars, but in ourselves.

There is a big difference in prejudice and judging an individual for his actions. No one is persecuting MJ because he is part of a certain group, or based on his different belief system, or because they are predisposed to hate certain minorities. People do not want to support the art of a man that they believe molested children.

He is being judged by his personal actions. He had sleepovers with young boys. He stated emphatically that he didn't see what was wrong with it even after it became an issue. He paid millions of dollars in hush money to quiet his accusers. Was there enough proof to put him in jail? No. Is there enough evidence for people to personally believe he committed heinous acts to express their feelings and changing their purchasing decisions? Absolutely.

If you are trying to make a parallel to the fall of Rome and imply that our society is on the verge of crumbling because we are judging MJ the analogy is seriously flawed.

What might be more apt would be that our moral fiber has disintegrated in our for evermore sensational entertainment.

 

[Mr. Morrow]

I am out of this thread you guys have fun :wave:

 

[imagineer boy]

Count me up as one of the people who don't want Eo at Epcot simply becuse its cheesy, dumb, and way more dated than HISTA ever was. I want somthing new!

From this thread all I can discern is that there's a far greater problem here than a 16+ year old film featuring a controversial celebrity. There's an essential fear and prejudice that, guilty or innocent, reminds me of an all too unruly time in human history. I can't put my finger on it, but it's a darkness that would make the entire world night if we could see it. I don't know what it is, but It just makes me feel uneasy for some reason.

The fault, dear Brutus, is not in our stars, but in ourselves.

But MJ was probably one of the whitest guys ever to live. :lol:

 

[wizards8507]

Is anyone else completely fascinated at the poll results?

 

[VeggiFruitFruit]

By the above statement you are inferring that your "morals" are the right ones and others who may adhere to slightly different morals or ethics are wrong.

No. I am saying there is a right and a wrong. This is not mine, or only applying to me, but everyone's right and wrong. I didn't construct this. Our legal system didn't construct this. This is simply a truth that is in our universe.

What I do own are my decisions based on this truth. Someone who has exactly the same "morals" ("beliefs" is a better word) as I have might decide to go ahead take their kids to EO, despite any possible negative consequences. I am certainly not saying this is wrong.

1) Yes there is an absolute truth. In the MJ situation we don't know what that truth is now do we? Outside of the law "right" , "wrong", "good" and "bad" can be very relative terms. Especially when dealing with situations like Jackson's.

The absolute truth in whether he is right or wrong will not change. It is not relative to anything. I can't change it. You can't change it. It just is. Have you ever wondered where the "law" acquired "right", "wrong", "good" and "bad"?

I have discerned the truth in MJ's situation. This is different than knowing. You can, and I think you do, discern what you think is right/wrong as well; it's OK!

2) I confront the wrong in the world on a daily basis. A part of that is how I instruct my girls on the evils we face day in and day out. However I also am able to understand that there are some things they are too young to even be exposed to in terms of information and as such can make the better aspects of someone's career available to them without forcing them to confront the negatives. When they are old enough to understand and make their own educated decisions I'll bring the darker side of certain people to light.

I think we are in agreement here. How do you confront the wrong? Is there a system of beliefs that you base this morality on? The answer is necessarily "yes". There is no decision that is value neutral. It sounds like you are a mature parent who has taken time to think through these issues. That's good!

(BTW- we, like you, are not even mentioning the attraction to the kids or our decision. We will talk about it when they are older.)

 

[wizards8507]

How often do theme park fanboys join together to debate ethical relativism?

This is fantastic.

 

[Evil Genius]

No. I am saying there is a right and a wrong. This is not mine, or only applying to me, but everyone's right and wrong. I didn't construct this. Our legal system didn't construct this. This is simply a truth that is in our universe.

What I do own are my decisions based on this truth. Someone who has exactly the same "morals" ("beliefs" is a better word) as I have might decide to go ahead take their kids to EO, despite any possible negative consequences. I am certainly not saying this is wrong.




The absolute truth in whether he is right or wrong will not change. It is not relative to anything. I can't change it. You can't change it. It just is. Have you ever wondered where the "law" acquired "right", "wrong", "good" and "bad"?

I have discerned the truth in MJ's situation. This is different than knowing. You can, and I think you do, discern what you think is right/wrong as well; it's OK!



I think we are in agreement here. How do you confront the wrong? Is there a system of beliefs that you base this morality on? The answer is necessarily "yes". There is no decision that is value neutral. It sounds like you are a mature parent who has taken time to think through these issues. That's good!

(BTW- we, like you, are not even mentioning the attraction to the kids or our decision. We will talk about it when they are older.)

Yes the absolute truth on whether he's right or wrong will not change. However we dont' know what that absolute truth actually is! If you weren't at Neverland when these events supposedly took place you can NEVER know.

Oh and my girls know about Captain EO...and they've seen it it on youtube.

They thought it was stupid...but hey there's no accounting for taste!

 

[wizards8507]

Yes the absolute truth on whether he's right or wrong will not change. However we dont' know what that absolute truth actually is! If you weren't at Neverland when these events supposedly took place you can NEVER know.

There's nothing "supposed" about Michael Jackson's own words, i.e. direct quote:

Why can't you share your bed? The most loving thing to do is to share your bed with someone. It's very charming. It's very sweet. It's what the whole world should do.

That is absolute... absolutely jacked up.

 

[Evil Genius]

There's nothing "supposed" about Michael Jackson's own words, i.e. direct quote:

Why can't you share your bed? The most loving thing to do is to share your bed with someone. It's very charming. It's very sweet. It's what the whole world should do.

That is absolute... absolutely jacked up.

To you, and maybe others. But there are societies where it is an accepted practice.

Plus...with Jackson's very obvious stunted emotional development these sleep overs could have been just that.

I'm not saying I know for certain. None of us know. You can be creeped out by the actual facts but what remains is the reality that no one will ever really know what happened now.

 

[VeggiFruitFruit]

There's an essential fear and prejudice that, guilty or innocent, reminds me of an all too unruly time in human history. I can't put my finger on it, but it's a darkness that would make the entire world night if we could see it. I don't know what it is, but It just makes me feel uneasy for some reason.

Might I encourage you to go ahead and put that finger on, and articulate what you are judging as bad (dark=bad?), instead of just reacting to your feelings of uneasiness?

 

[VeggiFruitFruit]

What might be more apt would be that our moral fiber has disintegrated in our for evermore sensational entertainment.

This took some guts to say. Thank you stl.:sohappy:

 

[Evil Genius]

This took some guts to say. Thank you stl.:sohappy:

Not to de-rail the thread but morals and ethics are a very relative (man I've used that word a lot in this thread!) topic.

 

[wizards8507]

Not to de-rail the thread but morals and ethics are a very relative (man I've used that word a lot in this thread!) topic.

To a certain level, sure they are. But there is a common standard that holds true for all of humanity.

Column A (Objective)
Murder
Rape
Incest

Column B (Relative)
Premarital "relations"
Homosexuality
War

You can debate column "B" until you're blue in the face, but there should be no doubt that Column A is just plain wrong. Make your choices in column B but there should be no doubt whatsoever about A. IMO, Michael's actions fall in column A.

 

[Mr. Morrow]

To a certain level, sure they are. But there is a common standard that holds true for all of humanity.

Column A (Objective)
Murder
Rape
Incest

Column B (Relative)
Premarital "relations"
Homosexuality
War

You can debate column "B" until you're blue in the face, but there should be no doubt that Column A is just plain wrong. Make your choices in column B but there should be no doubt whatsoever about A. IMO, Michael's actions fall in column A.

Alleged actions you keep forgeting this.

 

[wizards8507]

Alleged actions you keep forgeting this.

I feel like you skip reading every two posts. I don't care about the alleged actions. I care about the confirmed, confessed actions. Google Living With Michael Jackson to see what the man admitted to in his own words.

EDIT: I wouldn't have to say "alleged" anyways. I'm not an attorney, judge, politician, columnist, or reporter.

 

[Horizons1]

Actually this is the only thread where MJ himself, his controversial past, and should that be part of WDW is being officially discussed. Everywhere else it has been brought up it has been shut down as not part of the thread.

If you don't like this thread why do you keep reading and responding? Are other people not allowed to have a civil discussion because you do not approve of the topic?

I don't get your first part. His controversial past isn't anywhere in WDW. The only thing about MJ that's in WDW is a 3D sci-fi film he did in the 80s and maybe a photo of him somewhere in MGM. It's not as though Disney has erected a museum to MJ chronicling his life similar to Walt Disney in One Man's Dream.

I'm horribly offended by that statement. All I'm trying to do is have a civil conversation and express my concern for the growing number of similar threads relating to MJ. God forbid someone come forth and say "Hey, you guys are bringing up the same points in numerous threads." If you don't like my posts why do you keep reading and responding? Is someone not allowed to bring up a true statement because you do not approve of its point?