Do we lose track of the fact that WDW is really (in essence) for kids?

Matt_Black

Matt_Black

Well-Known Member
Chef Mickey said:
2) Transformers might be cool and awesome right now, but there is room for classics. Classics work. Haunted Mansion, Pirates, Classic Fantasyland, etc. Transformers can't stand the test of time like classics and it won't.
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Are we talking about the Bay films in particular, or the IP in general. Because if the latter, I'm going to have to disagree with you on that.
 
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UpAllNight

Well-Known Member
Chef Mickey said:
1) The trouble with your point is that Disney IS winning, right now. You're wrong about Pirates. People are still impressed with Pirates even 50 years after its original design and I completely disagree that it needs to be changed to be "more appealing." It IS appealing right now, as is.

2) Transformers might be cool and awesome right now, but there is room for classics. Classics work. Haunted Mansion, Pirates, Classic Fantasyland, etc. Transformers can't stand the test of time like classics and it won't.

3) You make it sound like Universal has the right model and Disney is playing catchup. You have that backwards. Disney is in control and Universal is playing catch up.

I understand your point and Disney can do better and more to present their ideas, but starting with POTC is the wrong place to start.

Imagination is not as awful as you make it sound, although it was better before. They did exactly what you said they should be doing and it bombed. The old ride as a classic with updated technology where possible would have been a better option.

Brand new does NOT always mean better, despite what a kid might say. As a kid, my favorite rides ever were Haunted Mansion and POTC and they were already "old."
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I actually agree with all of your points but I just raise one question; to what extent is the appeal of the classics based on nostalgia. If isolated from the story, and an individuals history with the ride, do they impress as much? New visitors may not have such a relationship with a ride and this is he point I was making...taken in that context, I think some could appear to be lacking.

And I fully agree regarding Haunted Mansion...that ride has stood the test of time and still impresses.
 
Disneyhead'71

Disneyhead'71

Well-Known Member
Ralphlaw said:
The basic problem for many institutions is the difficulty of offending your steady traditional customers while trying to stay vital to new customers. The classic example is in Churches. If you update the Sunday service with guitars and drums, ol' man Peabody and his wife will throw a fit, and write the Church out of their Will and stop dropping their big check in the collection plate every week. But if you stay with the old traditional, no one under 50 shows up.

WDW is an institution, and they've built new parks about every 10 years to keep the new guests interested while maintaining the comforting nostalgia in the old parks (with the occasional new attraction thrown in). The problem is that no new park has been added since the 90s to get cutting-edge guests excited, and new attractions within the old parks indeed have a short shelf life because of the blurring pace of technology.

In the meantime, who has a billion dollars every year to spend on constant upgrades with a shelf life of maybe 10 years? How many new guests will pay more or walk through the gate to make that billion dollar a year investment worthwhile? And can the existing parks handle the additional capacity?

Bottom line: The "whiners" tend to gloss over the above realities. Yeah, brainstorming solutions is fun, but it ends in frustration if the dollars aren't there to make them a reality.

Solution: New gate, and I have to think that it will be Hero-land or Marvel-land once Disney gets the east coast theme park rights to characters. That will bring cutting edge and take in a whole big bunch of paying guests, thus making it economically viable. That's not whining, that's fun brainstorming with a big dose of plausibility.
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Disney is not getting the East Coast Marvel rights back anytime in the foreseeable future.
 
R

Ralphlaw

Well-Known Member
I've read in some places that they will get the rights, but I honestly do not know for sure. At a minimum, I assume Disney can buy them back if Universal was willing to sell some or all of it. Anyway, Hero-land would work with superheroes, sports heroes, historical heroes, etc . . . Then, when and if they get the east coast rights to Thor and the gang, put in a huge addition, with Asgard, Stark Tower, and themed thrills galore. Now THAT'S fun to think about, and not a whine in the bunch.
 
Chef Mickey

Chef Mickey

Well-Known Member
UpAllNight said:
I actually agree with all of your points but I just raise one question; to what extent is the appeal of the classics based on nostalgia. If isolated from the story, and an individuals history with the ride, do they impress as much? New visitors may not have such a relationship with a ride and this is he point I was making...taken in that context, I think some could appear to be lacking.

And I fully agree regarding Haunted Mansion...that ride has stood the test of time and still impresses.
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Nostalgia is real. It sort of doesn't matter that dark rides aren't impressive...I agree, they aren't. But Peter Pan is a minimum 60 minute wait almost all the time.

Space Mountain isn't "impressive" but it's awesome, a classic.

I wouldn't say there are many super "impressive" rides, but Disney's dominance is theming and content are what make them the most popular theme parks in the world. They can have 2 parks in dire need of additions, renovations, and general TLC and still grow attendance across the board.

Tower of Terror and Everest are probably the most technological and ambitious rides Disney has built, especially when Yeti worked.

Everything else is either a classic or just incredibly well executed from a story/theme perspective.
 
Chef Mickey

Chef Mickey

Well-Known Member
Matt_Black said:
Are we talking about the Bay films in particular, or the IP in general. Because if the latter, I'm going to have to disagree with you on that.
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I was more speaking about the "in your face" blockbuster presentation of the Bay films.

Even still, Transformers is never going to be Peter Pan, Snow White, Cinderella, etc. Disney has a monopoly on the "classic" fantasy story telling type concepts. The princess crap (for lack of a better word) and wholesome family entertainment just keep winning.
 
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UpAllNight

Well-Known Member
Chef Mickey said:
Nostalgia is real. It sort of doesn't matter that dark rides aren't impressive...I agree, they aren't. But Peter Pan is a minimum 60 minute wait almost all the time.

Space Mountain isn't "impressive" but it's awesome, a classic.

I wouldn't say there are many super "impressive" rides, but Disney's dominance is theming and content are what make them the most popular theme parks in the world. They can have 2 parks in dire need of additions, renovations, and general TLC and still grow attendance across the board.

Tower of Terror and Everest are probably the most technological and ambitious rides Disney has built, especially when Yeti worked.

Everything else is either a classic or just incredibly well executed from a story/theme perspective.
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My response to this is that when created I imagine most of these rides that are no longer considered impressive, once were. If it could be done then, why not now? They could raise the bar in dark ride experiences, and once more innovate, thrill and inspire a new generation in more impressive ways.
 
Disneyhead'71

Disneyhead'71

Well-Known Member
Chef Mickey said:
I was more speaking about the "in your face" blockbuster presentation of the Bay films.

Even still, Transformers is never going to be Peter Pan, Snow White, Cinderella, etc. Disney has a monopoly on the "classic" fantasy story telling type concepts. The princess crap (for lack of a better word) and wholesome family entertainment just keep winning.
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Disney is without a doubt an American Institution. That's awesome if you want to vacation in an institution.
 
LAKid53

LAKid53

Official Member of the Girly Girl Fan Club
Premium Member
I was in my mid-40s the first time I visited WDW with my offspring. Our next visit I was much older than that ;) and she was over 21. We still get excited to visit - and we go several times a year. And future visits will involve a third generation.
 
Matt_Black

Matt_Black

Well-Known Member
Chef Mickey said:
I was more speaking about the "in your face" blockbuster presentation of the Bay films.

Even still, Transformers is never going to be Peter Pan, Snow White, Cinderella, etc. Disney has a monopoly on the "classic" fantasy story telling type concepts. The princess crap (for lack of a better word) and wholesome family entertainment just keep winning.
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True, but don't discount that many people like giant robots punching each other. Over the past 30 years, there have been numerous versions, and most have met with at least moderate success. G1, Beast Wars, the Bay films, etc.
 
Disneyhead'71

Disneyhead'71

Well-Known Member
Matt_Black said:
True, but don't discount that many people like giant robots punching each other. Over the past 30 years, there have been numerous versions, and most have met with at least moderate success. G1, Beast Wars, the Bay films, etc.
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The Transformers IP is 38 years old.

It's only a matter of time until Power Rangers make their more gritty big budget Blockbuster Feature debut.
 
Disneyhead'71

Disneyhead'71

Well-Known Member
Matt_Black said:
Yeah. And? The movie, the REAL one, came out 30 years ago, so my statement is still technically correct. The best kind of correct.
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Oh, I was backing up your assertion that robots have been popular for a long time.

And my power ranger statement was just to say that they are bringing a lot of the '80s IP back in a less kid oriented format.

I think it hilarious that Uni always tries to rip off Disney. But Uni just can't seem to get it right. UniCreative goes to Disney and see that kids love meet and greets. So they build one.

Disney
Anna-elsa-at-princess-fairytale-hall.jpg


And Uni

raptor.jpg
 
E

EnergyKing

Well-Known Member
I'd like to interrupt this whining session by letting everyone know how much I enjoyed the whiskey/buffet at Epcot's Oktoberfest. Good stuff. I highly recommend it.

Ok, back to the real fun...
 
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Ralphlaw

Well-Known Member
For the record, 2014 attendance in Orlando area was as follows:

1. Magic Kingdom 19,332,000
2. Epcot 11,454,000
3. Animal Kingdom 10,402,000
4. Hollywood Studios 10,312,000
5. Universal Orlando 8,263,000
6. Islands of Adv. 8,141,000
7. SeaWorld--Orlando 4,683,000
8. Busch Gards-Tampa 4,128,000

Doesn't sound like the Disney panic button needs to be pressed quite yet. And the old nostalgia of MK singlehandedly beat both Universals. MK and Epcot beat the other 4 combined.
 
M

Mouse_Trap

Well-Known Member
Tom said:
To address one of your major points, yes, I believe there are many people in the world, and on these forums, who think Disney needs to be Six Flags and cater only to thrill junkies. And they (in my opinion) become unjustifiably disgruntled when Disney invests in attractions like 7DMT.

I honestly don't care if someone doesn't like it because it's a "kiddie coaster". It's PERFECT. Entire families can ride it, and everyone can enjoy it. It's a great way to introduce kids to coasters, since it's pretty tame, but is actually entertaining (unlike Barnstormer).

The people who can't handle Disney putting in family attractions should probably migrate to discussion boards for other types of theme parks.
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I kind of agree, but I don't think the odd real thrill ride would hurt, especially if very well themed.
Look at what Universal did with Forbidden Journey and what it's looks like they're doing with Kong.
 

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