Do we lose track of the fact that WDW is really (in essence) for kids?

[mahnamahna101]

I don't track Universal's attendance. (That's other people's wheelhouse) However.... in the past 10 years, MK & the resort as a whole have grown 20%. Epcot at 16%, DAK at 26%. Out of those 10 years, the previous 3 are showing a troubling trend in how the Disney parks are growing; MK's growth rate is double that of the other parks. Since 2011, MK grew 13% while the other parks are right around 6%, resort as a whole is around 8.5%.

Its a troublesome trend.

Well that's why they've got to fix up the other 3 parks. Once that's done, they need to do little things for MK (increase Peter Pan's capacity, fix up IASW/Splash/Space/Big Thunder, replace Stitch with something worthwhile, make PeopleMover a worthwhile attraction, bring back all of the cut entertainment, rework backstage infrastructure for post 2021 expansion, etc)

Then, once the 50th celebration has worn, they can start expanding with some major high-capacity people-eaters to replace low-capacity areas (Princess Fairytale Hall, Tomorrowland Speedway, the tents in Storybook Circus) and to ease tension on older headliners (Big Thunder/Splash/HM, POTC/JC, Space) ... 2,500+/hr minimum.

If TDO were smart, they'd start to figure out how to do 3,000-4,000/hr for all future E-tickets. PeopleMover-esque capacity levels are what MK desperately needs for any major additions, here on out.

NFL is partially why MK has increased far more than the other 3, since the other 3 haven't added anything since Star Tours II. MK will start to stay flat or even slightly decline once Pandora and the DHS redo start to take effect.

It is troublesome to some degree, but, everything has got to be factored in. I have said before and I will repeat... percentages mean absolutely nothing. It depends on where it started. For example, revenue wise what would be better 13% of 19,000,000 or 20 percent of 10,000,000? Everything has a ceiling someplace. If Mk is crowded now, what would happen if it continued at 13%? Just the numbers will automatically reduce the percentage if everything remained the same actual, count wise. The comparison (Uni) was much smaller to begin with and had a lot more room for growth. Percentages do not pay the bills, head counts do. It only represents a decline in percentage not in business. There has to be a place where it is not only unreasonable to expect the same percentage of growth and even where it becomes unwise to even try due to the inability to take care of the additional.

Take the 19 mil. and add another 13% increase. That would be a head count of 2.5 million. At this stage in the game would that even be doable. In my opinion MK does not have a enough room to continue even on the pace it is at, much less increase it. That is why it is wise to concentrate on the other 3 parks to disperse whatever additional growth and spread them out a bit. Also, I believe, the main motivation for MM+... control of crowd locations.

Indeed... fix Epcot and get it to 17-18 million a year (with room for 100,000+ at any given time, Epcot could sustain those level of numbers far better than MK), get DHS/AK to 14-15 million each, while doing little things to increase MK's current capacity (Stitch replacement, PeopleMover overhaul with actual show scenes/AAs, return of cut entertainment like Golden Horseshoe, somehow increasing Peter Pan's hourly capacity, etc)

After the other 3 parks are up to speed, start working on high-capacity expansions for MK (all semi-major/major attractions from here on should have 2,500/hr minimum, 3,000-4,000/hr should be the goal). This would be further down the road, though. MK's fine until 2020/2021.

Universal has gone from 14% market share in 2007 to 22.4% market share now. They are aiming at 40%-45%.

There is absolutely no reason for Disney to even notice what Un i is doing up the road.

40-45%? That's quite a lofty goal... especially if AK, Epcot and DHS increase over the next 10 years. I'd love to see it, though

 

[EnergyKing]

I was thinking this the other day when I look at how my parents just enjoy it and don't care about little stupid things. When I first joined this board I was shocked on such small things people complain about...

Maybe it's not mere complaining or the inability to enjoy certain rides than it is the questioning of specific creative decisions. I still enjoy Ellen's Energy Adventure, even while considering it vastly inferior to the original. I still enjoy the exterior look of Main Street USA though I know they've replaced almost everything inside with stores. Maybe the upcoming Frozen attraction will be the greatest ride on Earth. However, like Mexico's boat ride, the inclusion of familiar Disney characters seems a jarring move in WS. Life is complex. Maybe we should all just shut up and ride the ride. Maybe sometimes it matters. I've always loved Disney more for their attention to detail and themes, not because they make rides based on movies I know. Yes, believe it or not, there are people out there that appreciate these small, silly things.

 

[LauraRose]

Maybe it's not mere complaining or the inability to enjoy certain rides than it is the questioning of specific creative decisions. I still enjoy Ellen's Energy Adventure, even while considering it vastly inferior to the original. I still enjoy the exterior look of Main Street USA though I know they've replaced almost everything inside with stores. Maybe the upcoming Frozen attraction will be the greatest ride on Earth. However, like Mexico's boat ride, the inclusion of familiar Disney characters seems a jarring move in WS. Life is complex. Maybe we should all just shut up and ride the ride. Maybe sometimes it matters. I've always loved Disney more for their attention to detail and themes, not because they make rides based on movies I know. Yes, believe it or not, there are people out there that appreciate these small, silly things.

Yes I mean the people who just have nothing but bad things to say, don't get me wrong they is some I don't like as for stitch but I learnt my lesson and don't need to ride it again. I see some things on this site like moaning about someone lying down during wished, or something silly isn't working on splash mountain. Not everything can be perfect all the time and I feel people should try and look for the good more than the negative. Okay maybe it doesn't look nice with people lying around or sitting on curbs but everyone paid to get in these parks and everyone has their own entitlements yet some people seem to forget that. The only real issue I have is rude people for example someone called my dad stupid last year because he read his fastpass time wrong 'haven't got time for stupid people' to be exact. Apologies them two seconds dosrupted your time schedule.

My point is, you see people who aren't obsessed with Disney and genuinely enjoy everything and appreciate all the work, I just don't like seeing constant negativity.

 

[lazyboy97o]

How can something central to the "Disney Difference" be stupid? Disney continues to brag about how they do "little things" so well.

 

[PhotoDave219]

Well that's why they've got to fix up the other 3 parks. Once that's done, they need to do little things for MK (increase Peter Pan's capacity, fix up IASW/Splash/Space/Big Thunder, replace Stitch with something worthwhile, make PeopleMover a worthwhile attraction, bring back all of the cut entertainment, rework backstage infrastructure for post 2021 expansion, etc)

Then, once the 50th celebration has worn, they can start expanding with some major high-capacity people-eaters to replace low-capacity areas (Princess Fairytale Hall, Tomorrowland Speedway, the tents in Storybook Circus) and to ease tension on older headliners (Big Thunder/Splash/HM, POTC/JC, Space) ... 2,500+/hr minimum.

If TDO were smart, they'd start to figure out how to do 3,000-4,000/hr for all future E-tickets. PeopleMover-esque capacity levels are what MK desperately needs for any major additions, here on out.

NFL is partially why MK has increased far more than the other 3, since the other 3 haven't added anything since Star Tours II. MK will start to stay flat or even slightly decline once Pandora and the DHS redo start to take effect.



Indeed... fix Epcot and get it to 17-18 million a year (with room for 100,000+ at any given time, Epcot could sustain those level of numbers far better than MK), get DHS/AK to 14-15 million each, while doing little things to increase MK's current capacity (Stitch replacement, PeopleMover overhaul with actual show scenes/AAs, return of cut entertainment like Golden Horseshoe, somehow increasing Peter Pan's hourly capacity, etc)

After the other 3 parks are up to speed, start working on high-capacity expansions for MK (all semi-major/major attractions from here on should have 2,500/hr minimum, 3,000-4,000/hr should be the goal). This would be further down the road, though. MK's fine until 2020/2021.


40-45%? That's quite a lofty goal... especially if AK, Epcot and DHS increase over the next 10 years. I'd love to see it, though

None of what youre suggesting is going to happen. The biggest problem with Magic Kingdom is that there are too many people in it. The crowd needs to move to the other parks.

 

[PhotoDave219]

Universal has gone from 14% market share in 2007 to 22.4% market share now. They are aiming at 40%-45%.

There is absolutely no reason for Disney to even notice what Un i is doing up the road.

The way Steve Burke hates Disney? I can see that. I can even see 30% by 2020.

 

[copcarguyp71]

None of what youre suggesting is going to happen. The biggest problem with Magic Kingdom is that there are too many people in it. The crowd needs to move to the other parks.

And yet...they continue the juggernaut outbuild of DVC. Avatarland will only really offset the dead space in DHS and with so many empty unused spaces in the other parks I can only see it as one step forward for two steps back. Parks are packed, souvenirs are bought and pixie dust is pandered in the form of DVC. Until any of that changes it is status quo....

 

[PhotoDave219]

And yet...they continue the juggernaut outbuild of DVC. Avatarland will only really offset the dead space in DHS and with so many empty unused spaces in the other parks I can only see it as one step forward for two steps back. Parks are packed, souvenirs are bought and pixie dust is pandered in the form of DVC. Until any of that changes it is status quo....

Well DHS is about to be completely redone. Its the mentality that has to change, I agree there. However IMO MKhas hit that super-saturation point of "too busy" and no amount of in-park expansion will help. Guests have to be lured elsewhere. As @Disneyhead'71 points out, If they're not enjoying Disney, they'll go right up I-4.

 

[Victor Kelly]

Some have lost track, however, i can be said Disney is no longer about just little kids. The majority of attractions are for 10 and over which today is really preteen. They are restructuring the village into Disney Springs which is the Adult area or soon to be. We can also see that while Universal has Potter for kids, the adults love Potter just as much. Which in turn means that Universal is drawing lots of people that are heading coming from WDW to Uni.

DVC is where Disney wants their money. That is why everything is being let go in the parks.

The little details are where Disney and now Uni shines. I do more detail photography when I go to Disney, so if the little things are messed up, I get ticked for a little bit, them move on.

 

[mahnamahna101]

None of what youre suggesting is going to happen. The biggest problem with Magic Kingdom is that there are too many people in it. The crowd needs to move to the other parks.

So, TDO is never going to finish fixing the other 3 parks? MK is going to perpetually stay at 33 attractions forever?

I know you and CaptainAmerica think otherwise, but MK will grow even if you don't add anything. Even after Star Wars Land, Pandora and a Future World overhaul, MK will either stay flat or slightly increase. MK is the WDW headliner - so whether you add capacity or not, as long as the economy is okay, MK will grow.

By 2021, AK and DHS will be set. Epcot should get some love, too. And the MK will have gotten small plussing for the 50th.

All I'm saying is that by 2021/2022, it'll be time for MK to get substantial changes - whether that be major expansion for Frontierland/Adventureland or a Tomorrowland overhaul, who knows. It probably won't happen. But at some point, MK will surpass 20 million via official TEA numbers even if they do nothing and completely fix the other 3. If anything, it just means more will come to WDW and thus MK since it's always going to be the #1 park.

But if Tokyo Disneyland gets close to the same numbers as MK, and they're still plussing their park, I would like to think MK will eventually do the same. @marni1971 posted something I definitely agree with - once the other 3 parks are fixed up, MK needs to have past capacity restored and mega-capacity Ds/Es or shows in the remaining expansion pads. Walt wouldn't want any park completely stagnating forever and forever just because 'there's too many people in it'. He would have just filled every space and maxmized capacity to make room for them!

That should be TDO's eventual game plan... but MK is never going to stop growing. Even if you make the other 3 more appealing. I don't expect MK to expand before 2025-2030, at the earliest, but eventually, they WILL have to. People won't just stop going because DHS and AK are full-day destinations, now. They'll simply add on extra days and still spend a couple days in MK/Epcot.

 

[mahnamahna101]

Well DHS is about to be completely redone. Its the mentality that has to change, I agree there. However IMO MKhas hit that super-saturation point of "too busy" and no amount of in-park expansion will help. Guests have to be lured elsewhere. As @Disneyhead'71 points out, If they're not enjoying Disney, they'll go right up I-4.

In-park expansion can help... if they do it all at once and don't advertise it. And if any future Ds/Es have 3,500+/hr. But any expansion would have to wait until the other 3 parks are rounded out. By 2025, the other 3 should be relatively set.

MK has to expand eventually, though. It'll grow regardless of how fleshed out the other 3 are.

 

[Victor Kelly]

The problem with expanding MK is that they essentially have landlocked themselves. Not that it cannot be remedied, it can, but it will cost money. The opened up a major bottleneck in between Fantasyland and Liberty Square, which definitely helped with traffic flow. The same thing for the Hub rebuild. To expand Tommorrowland they will need to remove the race way, and expand outside the berm and past the Railroad like Space Mountain did. You can probably expand Frontierland north of Big Thunder and Tom Sawyer's Island. In Fantasyland, IASW can be demolished and moved further north in a rebuild, while putting an attraction in its old place and having things set up like FLE with people able to go around it like SDMT. Pan can be brought into the 21st century. Princess Hall can stay where it is because it will give everyone a set place to see the popular princesses of the day.

 

[Raineman]

So, TDO is never going to finish fixing the other 3 parks? MK is going to perpetually stay at 33 attractions forever?

I know you and CaptainAmerica think otherwise, but MK will grow even if you don't add anything. Even after Star Wars Land, Pandora and a Future World overhaul, MK will either stay flat or slightly increase. MK is the WDW headliner - so whether you add capacity or not, as long as the economy is okay, MK will grow.

By 2021, AK and DHS will be set. Epcot should get some love, too. And the MK will have gotten small plussing for the 50th.

All I'm saying is that by 2021/2022, it'll be time for MK to get substantial changes - whether that be major expansion for Frontierland/Adventureland or a Tomorrowland overhaul, who knows. It probably won't happen. But at some point, MK will surpass 20 million via official TEA numbers even if they do nothing and completely fix the other 3. If anything, it just means more will come to WDW and thus MK since it's always going to be the #1 park.

But if Tokyo Disneyland gets close to the same numbers as MK, and they're still plussing their park, I would like to think MK will eventually do the same. @marni1971 posted something I definitely agree with - once the other 3 parks are fixed up, MK needs to have past capacity restored and mega-capacity Ds/Es or shows in the remaining expansion pads. Walt wouldn't want any park completely stagnating forever and forever just because 'there's too many people in it'. He would have just filled every space and maxmized capacity to make room for them!

That should be TDO's eventual game plan... but MK is never going to stop growing. Even if you make the other 3 more appealing. I don't expect MK to expand before 2025-2030, at the earliest, but eventually, they WILL have to. People won't just stop going because DHS and AK are full-day destinations, now. They'll simply add on extra days and still spend a couple days in MK/Epcot.

Just wondering if there is a point where MK will not be able to expand? I know there have been a few threads on here, with people posting aerial shots showing the different possible expansion areas, but it seems that once those are explored, roads like Floridian Way and World Drive will block expansion to the west, east and north, and Seven Seas Lagoon will block expansion to the south. Granted, the area that is bounded by these roads to the north of NFL and to the west of FL is fairly large, but I don't think MK can keep expanding forever. Also, the usage of these areas would require hiding or theming some of the backstage areas that exist in these areas.

 

[jloucks]

None of what youre suggesting is going to happen. The biggest problem with Magic Kingdom is that there are too many people in it. The crowd needs to move to the other parks.

...or be culled via significant ticket price increases.

I don't care how, but the crowd levels need to be reduced. Definitely out of most people comfort level and possibly becoming a safety issue.

I was in some sort of mob line waiting zone for Fantasmic. Thousands of people jammed into a walled in coral that when the rope dropped all herded at the same time towards the show area. That is an accident waiting to happen.

 

[EnergyKing]

I am definitely in the "improve the other parks first" camp. What better way to thin out the crowds than to send them somewhere else completely?

In my opinion, MK is the perfect size. If anything, it needs better ride replacements...although any renovations would surely not be helping the overcrowded cause. At least not temporarily.