News Disneyland cancels Annual Pass program

[flynnibus]

No, trust me, there were certainly were some of that. There have been posters here who said they never wanted it back but I know they are in the minority. And I'm not just talking about this site obviously. I was part of MC for a loooong time before I came here and there it was debated literally weekly for years. It just got tiring to hear after awhile (that's not why I left though).

But yes, I do agree its probably because these sites, especially DLR are driven by locals more than anything. I go to the Tokyo, Hong Kong and Shanghai boards since I go to all those parks as well and its very different there since it's a lot less people who post and no one seems to be a local to any of those parks including myself.

But as far as APs and being 'unlimited' that's how every AP in every theme park works, right? This is kind of my point, there is almost this inherit resentment over it which I don't understand. I mean, KBF also has an unlimited AP. You can go every day the park is open, just not valid for Knott's Scary Farm. And it's only $101 WITH payment plan on top of it. I have not seen a SINGLE post anywhere that people suggesting KBF is 'giving up the cow', it's appeasing the locals too much, it makes the park too crowded and on and on. No one seems to care at all in fact.

Of course I partly understand why, because they don't personally go to KBF that often if ever, or spend 10 hours a day talking about it, even when living in a different country or state. Some people come to boards like this every day even though they physically go to the park, any of the parks, once a year at best. So obviously there is a big loyalty factor few parks get outside of Disney,. So I get it. But regardless, DL is not doing ANYTHING differently than every theme park out there. Nothing! The only difference is there is a subset of people who seem to believe they should operate the parks that is better for THEM to visit. That's what it comes down to. Yeah we would all love that, but that's just not the way businesses works, especially the theme park business where (up until a year ago) cramming as many people in for a price they can live with was the business model...and most likely will be again.

By site i mean dlr verse other locations.

unlimited at other parks isnt an issue because people don’t go as often or as casually as they do dlr. thats why it’s something that is really a dlr specific problem.

 

[fctiger]

By site i mean dlr verse other locations.

unlimited at other parks isnt an issue because people don’t go as often or as casually as they do dlr. thats why it’s something that is really a dlr specific problem.

OK, I get that. But again, that's what EVERY theme park does, including every Disney theme park around the world. TDR gets JUST as many APers and has for decades as DLR. That park is super busy because of the locals. I understand why no one here talks about it if you never been there, but my point is not an issue there either. People just accept these parks are very popular and Disney wants people to go as often as possible. Now, if it gets out of hand, then sure they should do things about it (AS they have with Tokyo in terms of certain rules and restrictions) but they sold unlimited APs for 30 years now. I just don't see any fundamental difference because isn't any. And Disney doesn't seem to have an issue with them, they simply want more control which I agree they should have.

 

[DanielBB8]

It’s like a weight control issue at a buffet restaurant. Let’s shut down the buffet because they can’t help themselves. LOL!!!

 

[Mouse Trap]

IMHO... everyone here is complicating what happened. Simply put, Disney got screwed by the state of California.

They were presented very restrictive opening guidelines that wouldn’t have allowed Disneyland to open until late or even post-summer and at best 15% capacity. Disney did what they needed to do based on those guidelines and figured by Fall 2021 reservations would fill up so quick that most annual passes would be useless or clog limited capacity until sometime in 2022. Annual passholders couldn’t be accommodated and if Disney was going to be stuck at 15% capacity and potentially missing another valuable summer they needed the best ROI by only allowing ticket holders in.

Elsewhere, the walls started closing in on Newsom and then out of nowhere he changed course on California’s reopening. Disneyland could basically open up immediately and on an accelerated timeline, not to mention by mid-June there would be “no capacity restrictions”.

California is now opening up faster than anyone anticipated and Disneyland simply got caught in a situation they didn’t expect. Their parks are opening faster, capacity is increasing and they’ve got no one to fill even 25% capacity.

Now they’re scrambling for a solution. In the long term they’ll win here with more control and higher prices, but near term they’re in a bind no one at the company saw coming.

This has less to do with “overcrowding”, “unbearable Saturdays” and “social clubs” and more so to do with a certain government blueprint for reopening.

 

[SoCalDisneyLover]

IMHO... everyone here is complicating what happened. Simply put, Disney got screwed by the state of California.

They were presented very restrictive opening guidelines that wouldn’t have allowed Disneyland to open until late or even post-summer and at best 15% capacity. Disney did what they needed to do based on those guidelines and figured by Fall 2021 reservations would fill up so quick that most annual passes would be useless or clog limited capacity until sometime in 2022. Annual passholders couldn’t be accommodated and if Disney was going to be stuck at 15% capacity and potentially missing another valuable summer they needed the best ROI by only allowing ticket holders in.

Elsewhere, the walls started closing in on Newsom and then out of nowhere he changed course on California’s reopening. Disneyland could basically open up immediately and on an accelerated timeline, not to mention by mid-June there would be “no capacity restrictions”.

California is now opening up faster than anyone anticipated and Disneyland simply got caught in a situation they didn’t expect. Their parks are opening faster, capacity is increasing and they’ve got no one to fill even 25% capacity.

Now they’re scrambling for a solution. In the long term they’ll win here with more control and higher prices, but near term they’re in a bind no one at the company saw coming.

This has less to do with “overcrowding”, “unbearable Saturdays” and “social clubs” and more so to do with a certain government blueprint for reopening.

LOL.

 

[MisterPenguin]

IMHO... everyone here is complicating what happened. Simply put, Disney got screwed by the state of California.

They were presented very restrictive opening guidelines that wouldn’t have allowed Disneyland to open until late or even post-summer and at best 15% capacity. Disney did what they needed to do based on those guidelines and figured by Fall 2021 reservations would fill up so quick that most annual passes would be useless or clog limited capacity until sometime in 2022. Annual passholders couldn’t be accommodated and if Disney was going to be stuck at 15% capacity and potentially missing another valuable summer they needed the best ROI by only allowing ticket holders in.

Elsewhere, the walls started closing in on Newsom and then out of nowhere he changed course on California’s reopening. Disneyland could basically open up immediately and on an accelerated timeline, not to mention by mid-June there would be “no capacity restrictions”.

California is now opening up faster than anyone anticipated and Disneyland simply got caught in a situation they didn’t expect. Their parks are opening faster, capacity is increasing and they’ve got no one to fill even 25% capacity.

Now they’re scrambling for a solution. In the long term they’ll win here with more control and higher prices, but near term they’re in a bind no one at the company saw coming.

This has less to do with “overcrowding”, “unbearable Saturdays” and “social clubs” and more so to do with a certain government blueprint for reopening.

It's clear that Disneyland will be able to return to normal in a few months. So then, why doesn't Disneyland just go back to the way things were before? It's because Bob said that they wanted to change for a long time now, and this was the opportunity to do so. So your supposition is not correct.

 

[flynnibus]

OK, I get that. But again, that's what EVERY theme park does, including every Disney theme park around the world.

no its not - thats why disney’s ap was always a much higher multiple of its single gate admission verse others. Most season pass upsells were at about 2.5x for regional parks and a bit more for big parks. Disney has been over 10x depending on offer.

the visiting pattern at a park like dlr has been very different from other disney parks. That’s why it has stressed operations where you have an evening rush, etc verse a normal tourist pattern like the vast majority of people arriving before 2pm.

TDR gets JUST as many APers and has for decades as DLR. That park is super busy because of the locals. I understand why no one here talks about it if you never been there, but my point is not an issue there either.

The same tdlr that has even more restrictive park admission media... because of crowds... and is notorious for its queues? Yeah “not an issue”. *rolleye*

People just accept these parks are very popular and Disney wants people to go as often as possible.

when one speaks in over general terms... you are bound to overstep.

disney wants people to come... until you start offsetting another higher spender.

the park needs volume to function well. They park wants interactions to drive sales. But the park also wants efficiency... it also wants to manage volume... and wants to ensure those looking to spend big on a family trip do so and look to repeat.

 

[Vegas Disney Fan]

The program created a bunch of entitlement in people - and brought out traits and behaviors that were off putting to alot of people.

That’s just California in general

Just kidding California friends…

 

[Mouse Trap]

It's clear that Disneyland will be able to return to normal in a few months. So then, why doesn't Disneyland just go back to the way things were before? It's because Bob said that they wanted to change for a long time now, and this was the opportunity to do so. So your supposition is not correct.

Why wasn’t this change made a couple months into closing then? Or before the “summer reopening” was announced? Why did it take almost 10 months into the shutdown to make this call if they wanted to do this so bad? I don’t doubt they wanted to change the program, but they had plenty of opportunity to do so and didn’t until they had no other choice.

The announcement to scrap AP’s entirely came just after the extremely restrictive reopening guidelines came out — when Disneyland had no other choice, but to ditch them. They held out as long as they could, but it was never going to make sense to keep AP’s around while being forced into 15% capacity until 2022.

Again, they’ve certainly wanted to change the program, but getting rid of it entirely was based more so on projected 15% capacity for all of 2021 than people want to acknowledge.

It’s quite obvious Bob + Co got caught with their pants down when California pulled a 180 on their reopening plans. Now they need a replacement program and need it bad.

 

[fctiger]

no its not - thats why disney’s ap was always a much higher multiple of its single gate admission verse others. Most season pass upsells were at about 2.5x for regional parks and a bit more for big parks. Disney has been over 10x depending on offer.

the visiting pattern at a park like dlr has been very different from other disney parks. That’s why it has stressed operations where you have an evening rush, etc verse a normal tourist pattern like the vast majority of people arriving before 2pm.

I wasn't referring to the price, just the fact every theme park has them. And DLR prices wasn't always as crazy in the past, they were actually pretty reasonable for a long time. It's when the monthly payment program started and DCA was becoming a better park they started to jack up the prices more because they knew they could get away with it. And they also had lower APs as well. You're talking about the most expensive one.

The same tdlr that has even more restrictive park admission media... because of crowds... and is notorious for its queues? Yeah “not an issue”. *rolleye*

Which I acknowledged. But they still sell the passes lol. In fact they lowered the price of the pass a year ago because fans complained it was getting too high. Clearly they want the crowds. Every park does.

when one speaks in over general terms... you are bound to overstep.

disney wants people to come... until you start offsetting another higher spender.

the park needs volume to function well. They park wants interactions to drive sales. But the park also wants efficiency... it also wants to manage volume... and wants to ensure those looking to spend big on a family trip do so and look to repeat.

This has been said over and over again. Of course Disney wants more higher spenders. Again every park wants that. The problem is it's not enough of them to sustain the park all year. Never has been. And I doubt it ever will be. It's not WDW.

So they have to find other ways. Look, none of us here are making ANY of these decisions. Disney is. We're just stating why obviously. If Disney decided tomorrow never to sell an AP again, most of us will live. People will moan and whine about it but then will get on with life, as most of us did for the past year without it a all. I've been going to the park for over 40 years now, I've had 7 APs total in all that time and never had an AP at any of the other Disney parks and I been to them all multiple times over (but only twice to WDW). But they won't ever truly go away because they need them and they know that's the only way to get people showing up more consistently.

But if they bring them back and find ways to manage them better and control the crowding then this is a good thing. Everyone seems to agree with that, no matter if they like APs or not. So we're in agreement where it matters the most!

 

[SoCalDisneyLover]

That’s just California in general

Just kidding California friends…

It's actually an American thing.

 

[Nirya]

Why wasn’t this change made a couple months into closing then? Or before the “summer reopening” was announced? Why did it take almost 10 months into the shutdown to make this call if they wanted to do this so bad? I don’t doubt they wanted to change the program, but they had plenty of opportunity to do so and didn’t until they had no other choice.

The announcement to scrap AP’s entirely came just after the extremely restrictive reopening guidelines came out — when Disneyland had no other choice, but to ditch them. They held out as long as they could, but it was never going to make sense to keep AP’s around while being forced into 15% capacity until 2022.

Again, they’ve certainly wanted to change the program, but getting rid of it entirely was based more so on projected 15% capacity for all of 2021 than people want to acknowledge.

It’s quite obvious Bob + Co got caught with their pants down when California pulled a 180 on their reopening plans. Now they need a replacement program and need it bad.

I think your argument would work better if every California theme park also got rid of their AP programs. But they didn't, and in general everyone else decided to just extend AP benefits. And, realistically, Disney was likely prepared to open at reduced capacity, considering Disney World (which doesn't have the limits that California does) has been operating at reduced capacity this entire time (most recent numbers I could see is that WDW is operating at 35% capacity). So pinning the blame for the AP program closing at the DLR on California isn't very close to reality.

The actual reality is that Disney has known their AP program has been a problem for a good amount of time and realized that the sheer numbers of APs for the DLR was never going to work with the system they had implemented in WDW, let alone what was possibly going to be the situation in California. So instead of extending benefits like every other California park has done (something that would never really be considered by the profit-conscious Disney), they decided to axe the program entirely, knowing they could bring back a new version in the future that could be better designed for long-term health of the resort.

 

[DanielBB8]

It’s obvious that Disneyland’s AP’s has too many iterations and price points. And they introduced the Flex Pass that’s designed exactly with the reservations system in mind. So they cancel the remaining 80% of the incompatible APs that offer unlimited entry (subtracting for blockout dates) and start over with everyone having the same thing. This could be what they’re doing.

Not a prediction, but they can offer three levels of Flex Passes. $1100, $900, and $700 that allows 4, 3, 2 reservations in a 30 day interval. The most expensive pass has no Blockouts. The middle has some major holiday blockouts. The cheaper has holidays plus more days. No pass guarantees admission. The savvy passholder will leave one allocation unreserved to use for last minute trips.

 

[flynnibus]

I wasn't referring to the price, just the fact every theme park has them

The price citation is to show how they are unique - because only they can get away with charging so much and the loyal base keeps paying. You are missing the reference. It's not about comparing the price - it's showing how the interaction with the customer base is different -- just how dedicated the fan base is.

. And DLR prices wasn't always as crazy in the past, they were actually pretty reasonable for a long time. It's when the monthly payment program started and DCA was becoming a better park they started to jack up the prices more because they knew they could get away with it. And they also had lower APs as well. You're talking about the most expensive one.

I'm talking about how Disney is unique in the industry in terms of its ability to charge a much higher multiplier and it's fan base keeps paying. That simple fact shows how their situation isn't 'the same' as everyone else.. otherwise they'd never get away with it.

In 2019, the single day park hopper was $150-$200. The annual passes were $800-$1400. Or look at 2 day get get away from the date based pricing.. and it averages $140/day for a park hopper. Slice it how you want... that is 5.7x-10x upsell for the AP.

In 2019, USH actually DROPPED their AP price. The regular AP passes at USH are barely 2x the single day admission price.
In 2019, KBF's APs actually cost LESS than 2x single day admission.
In 2019, SFMM is also less than 2x single day admission

Like I said before - most season pass programs target about a 2.5x upsell. Disney is more than DOUBLE that, and almost 4x that in the lucrative levels.

Disney can do this because Disneyland's customer base and how/why people go there IS NOT THE SAME as everywhere else.

This has been said over and over again. Of course Disney wants more higher spenders. Again every park wants that. The problem is it's not enough of them to sustain the park all year. Never has been. And I doubt it ever will be. It's not WDW.

And this is why your binary thinking is dragging this on and on. This is not 'no AP or all unlimited AP' -- and why you will likely see the new program be something inbetween. A program that encourages repeat visits, but in a way Disney can still dynamically manage the AP impact at the park.

Disneyland's program had become untenable for the park's operations. For years they just tried using pricing to try to shape the demand - but the addiction to the predicable revenue prevented them from breaking the pattern. It took the situation that rocked the business to it's core to finally break the stalemate that gave them the umph to finally pull the reset breaker.

 

[fctiger]

The price citation is to show how they are unique - because only they can get away with charging so much and the loyal base keeps paying. You are missing the reference. It's not about comparing the price - it's showing how the interaction with the customer base is different -- just how dedicated the fan base is.

I guess I am. I still have no idea how that proves Disney doesn't rely on APs since it's been that way in every park for decades now...and still that way today. That dedication is why they sell the APs in the first place! No one I know who doesn't like a theme park is wiling to buy $1,000 park ticket for it, right?

I'm talking about how Disney is unique in the industry in terms of its ability to charge a much higher multiplier and it's fan base keeps paying. That simple fact shows how their situation isn't 'the same' as everyone else.. otherwise they'd never get away with it.

We certainly agree on that. Hell most of us here are proof of that lol. I would never pay over $100 except at DL.

In 2019, the single day park hopper was $150-$200. The annual passes were $800-$1400. Or look at 2 day get get away from the date based pricing.. and it averages $140/day for a park hopper. Slice it how you want... that is 5.7x-10x upsell for the AP.

In 2019, USH actually DROPPED their AP price. The regular AP passes at USH are barely 2x the single day admission price.
In 2019, KBF's APs actually cost LESS than 2x single day admission.
In 2019, SFMM is also less than 2x single day admission

Like I said before - most season pass programs target about a 2.5x upsell. Disney is more than DOUBLE that, and almost 4x that in the lucrative levels.

Disney can do this because Disneyland's customer base and how/why people go there IS NOT THE SAME as everywhere else.

OK, fine, I hear you. I just have no idea how any of this proves they don't need APs though??? Yes PH are very popular. Well guess what, APs even MORE so. That's all that is being said. When you give obsessed fans the chance to go even more, guess what, that's what most will choose and why APs are an attractive offer, especially when it's the company who wants them to go as much as possible.

If that wasn't the case, they would just sell season passes in slow periods like the fall or winter. End of the day EVERY theme park wants more people, not less. So I don't really see your point other than yes more people are willing to go to DL. No one is saying obviously.

I literally said this in this thread I think. Disney can simply decide to make the PH without an expired date or at least used within 12 month period of expiration and not 13 days and people LIKE ME, would happily take that option as well. But they DON'T do that??? Why do think that is? Um, because if they did that. then it will decrease the AP sales, right? Again, this is all that is being said. But they could've done this option long ago, but didn't.

And this is why your binary thinking is dragging this on and on. This is not 'no AP or all unlimited AP' -- and why you will likely see the new program be something inbetween. A program that encourages repeat visits, but in a way Disney can still dynamically manage the AP impact at the park.

Disneyland's program had become untenable for the park's operations. For years they just tried using pricing to try to shape the demand - but the addiction to the predicable revenue prevented them from breaking the pattern. It took the situation that rocked the business to it's core to finally break the stalemate that gave them the umph to finally pull the reset breaker.

Dude, first off you're putting words in my mouth. I have NEVER said it has to be 'no AP or unlimted'. Man, that doesn't even make sense since literally THE majority of their APs sold at DL are not unlimited lol. Out of the SIX Aps they had last year, only one was, so what are you talking about?? And even for me, out of the seven passes I had, only two of those were unlimited and that didn't include the last one I had either. None of my family in fact has ever had an unlimited AP because no one goes enough to even need one. DL has had a program that is 'something inbetween;' for decades now, right? My guess is the overwhelming majority of passes sold are indeed the limited ones. So not following at all. I said every park has an unlimited pass, it doesn't mean its the ONLY pass, nor does it have to be. But AFAIK, they all offer one at least.

Regardless what they do, it's going to be more popular than just day passes and PH, right? And no I won't be shocked if they have an unlimited AP either because I still think competition is an issue even if DL still beats everyone by a wider margin. But you could be absolutely right and they may not, OK? I think for MOST people, it's less about how often you go and more about when you can anyway. No one goes 365 days a year (no one sane anyway), it's more just about having the freedom to go on the days whenever you DO want to go. At least for me. We'll.just.have.to.see!

So you're acting like I'm disagreeing with you on this which I'm not. This was literally my LAST line in my response to you in my last post:

But if they bring them back and find ways to manage them better and control the crowding then this is a good thing. Everyone seems to agree with that, no matter if they like APs or not. So we're in agreement where it matters the most!

Did you just not get to the end of my post (I can't blame you too much, I can ramble ) but yes we're saying the SAME thing are we not???How EVER that is done, that's what I'm saying. I'm just saying A. They still want APers obviously but B. they simply want to control it better and to balance the crowds, which the new situation has given them that chance to do. Yeah all said and both agreed on.

I said this MANY times now, yes they need to get more control of the crowds and accessibility of the passes because they just had so many APers and they can't accommodate them all anymore. You're talking to someone who has been arguing they should cap the passes when they get to a certain level for a decade now. Unfortunately Disney doesn't care what I think lol. But you're still arguing as if I'm suggesting it should all come back like before. Again, I'm NOT! But yes I never doubted an AP program was ALWAYS coming back. In what form, again, we'll see!

Either way it won't affect me personally, so I'm willing to see what they do. Hopefully it will be something worth getting if and when we decide to go more regularly again.

 

[flynnibus]

I guess I am. I still have no idea how that proves Disney doesn't rely on APs since it's been that way in every park for decades now...and still that way today.

? That's not the postulate I responded to at all. I think you should revisit my initial post to you - https://forums.wdwmagic.com/threads/disneyland-cancels-annual-pass-program.971557/post-9780698

Specifically where you make the point "And I only say that because it seems to just be this park alone and no other park, including other Disney parks where there is so much scorn over a program that's been around for decades now in most major park worldwide"

I've been pointing out why DLR is unique vs 'other parks' and why the AP discussion for DLR is a unique challenge... where you continued to address every point with "like every other park" -- I was pointing out how DLR's situation is NOT 'like every other park'.

If that wasn't the case, they would just sell season passes in slow periods like the fall or winter. End of the day EVERY theme park wants more people, not less. So I don't really see your point other than yes more people are willing to go to DL. No one is saying obviously.

Because you keep looking at points in complete isolation to tear them down as 'duh' vs taking in the sum of the parts. Yes obviously businesses want MORE customers - but that comment alone doesn't not stand true to every circumstance. It's not a claim you use to broadstroke any decision. It's just ONE piece of the puzzle - for instance another major piece is the spending power of the customer.

I literally said this in this thread I think. Disney can simply decide to make the PH without an expired date or at least used within 12 month period of expiration and not 13 days and people LIKE ME, would happily take that option as well. But they DON'T do that??? Why do think that is? Um, because if they did that. then it will decrease the AP sales, right? Again, this is all that is being said. But they could've done this option long ago, but didn't.

They don't do that because it only serves the benefit of the customer - not Disney. That concept's value as an upsell is limited and instead is more of a 'discounted admission' than an upsell... because the discount price structure in place there is dominated by it's real purpose... extending stays... not just a way to sell more gate admissions.

They don't do it because it would hurt AP sales - They don't do it because it literally would dramatically reduce ASP, it doesn't have a high enough step up, and wouldn't be steady recurring revenue, but rather a liability outstanding on the books.

Disney accountants nerfed this long standing benefit years ago at Disney for similar reasons. It's all customer focused, not Disney sales focused. To return to that would be a huge step backwards for their motivations.

Dude, first off you're putting words in my mouth. I have NEVER said it has to be 'no AP or unlimted'. Man, that doesn't even make sense since literally THE majority of their APs sold at DL are not unlimited lol. Out of the SIX Aps they had last year, only one was, so what are you talking about??

They all have 'unlimited' in the sense I was using it - you are not limited in your NUMBER of uses. You have things like blackouts, etc... but that's not the point at hand. 'unlimited' here in this sense is the idea that for a single purchase, they can pretty much 'go as much as they want' vs say... buying a fixed # of uses. It's important to include this because it's a huge portion of the "problem" in the Disneyland AP program. Customers never have any 'consequence' to going to the park - there never is a tradeoff. So if they go for 30mins, or 4hrs.. it makes no difference to them. If they go just to pickup that limited item and walk right back out... they have no consequence in terms of their AP. But it very much makes a difference to Disney.

Its why am I very interested to see if Disney finally tackles this dimension to the program... by introducing an element of investment or trade for visiting the parks. It could be something like total uses, or a linking of costs to uses, or doing other things like adding on more per visit costs (like removing parking privs, etc).

But if they bring them back and find ways to manage them better and control the crowding then this is a good thing. Everyone seems to agree with that, no matter if they like APs or not. So we're in agreement where it matters the most!

Did you just not get to the end of my post (I can't blame you too much, I can ramble ) but yes we're saying the SAME thing are we not???How EVER that is done, that's what I'm saying. I'm just saying A. They still want APers obviously but B. they simply want to control it better and to balance the crowds, which the new situation has given them that chance to do. Yeah all said and both agreed on.

Yes, controlling it very much is the top change we will see IMO. I was just responding to your point begging why people look at Disneyland's AP situation differently than everywhere else... because it is different than everywhere else

 

[fctiger]

? That's not the postulate I responded to at all. I think you should revisit my initial post to you - https://forums.wdwmagic.com/threads/disneyland-cancels-annual-pass-program.971557/post-9780698

Specifically where you make the point "And I only say that because it seems to just be this park alone and no other park, including other Disney parks where there is so much scorn over a program that's been around for decades now in most major park worldwide"

I've been pointing out why DLR is unique vs 'other parks' and why the AP discussion for DLR is a unique challenge... where you continued to address every point with "like every other park" -- I was pointing out how DLR's situation is NOT 'like every other park'.

Look I think this is just one of the things on the where tone and nuance gets a little lost, that's all. All I was saying is that every them park has APs, that's all. Yes, I understand some can have different issues with them and DL had some of the worst, But SOME people do act like DL and DL alone is the only one that has them the way they talk as if no other park has major crowding issues. That didn't mean you of course. I been to over 30 parks in multiple countries. And yes BELIEVE it or not, some actually are just as crowded as DL when you add in their capacity level. But because they are smaller parks and local parks without being part of an international brand, nor they do they get to the level of attendance like a Universal or Disney. But they are super popular and super busy. And yes, still sell APs just the same. Most people here are just comparing American parks, which is understandable of course.

HOPEFULLY with the new program they will find a middle ground. And maybe people won't be so bothered by it in the future.

Because you keep looking at points in complete isolation to tear them down as 'duh' vs taking in the sum of the parts. Yes obviously businesses want MORE customers - but that comment alone doesn't not stand true to every circumstance. It's not a claim you use to broadstroke any decision. It's just ONE piece of the puzzle - for instance another major piece is the spending power of the customer.

Sure, but in this case it does. Why bring them back at all if they didn't? They could just wait a year at least and just see how things go with more day passes and park hoppers. And I think most people would understand that given the situation. Clearly Disney isn't willing to do that. That's all that's being pointed out.

They don't do that because it only serves the benefit of the customer - not Disney. That concept's value as an upsell is limited and instead is more of a 'discounted admission' than an upsell... because the discount price structure in place there is dominated by it's real purpose... extending stays... not just a way to sell more gate admissions.

OK, cool!

They don't do it because it would hurt AP sales - They don't do it because it literally would dramatically reduce ASP, it doesn't have a high enough step up, and wouldn't be steady recurring revenue, but rather a liability outstanding on the books.

Well I think it can easily be both lol. But OK, that's fine too! The fact is they are not relying on PHs like they do APs. There are no monthly payment plans for PHs.

They all have 'unlimited' in the sense I was using it - you are not limited in your NUMBER of uses. You have things like blackouts, etc... but that's not the point at hand. 'unlimited' here in this sense is the idea that for a single purchase, they can pretty much 'go as much as they want' vs buying a fixed # of uses. It's important to include this because it's a huge portion of the "problem" in the Disneyland AP program. Customers never have any 'consequence' to going to the park - there never is a tradeoff. So if they go for 30mins, or 4hrs.. it makes no difference to them. If they go just to pickup that limited item and walk right back out... they have no consequence in terms of their AP. But it very much makes a difference to Disney.

I guess this is where nuance part of the argument is difficult lol. I mean I hear you're saying, but that's why they call them 'annual' passes right? You have a start and end date within 365 days. You're limited based on the pass and price. I guess I don't really understand your point here. That's how all passes works, including every Disney pass. I mean I'm just stating the obvious.

But maybe that's why they will be called membership. I'm not really assuming anything OTHER than we will get an annual pass in some form. The survey I got did ask about going at different times, etc, so who knows that might all be included too. Clearly they are going to go a lot on the feedback they got from the surveys. But they may have allll kinds of new crazy options lol. As long as I can afford it, I'm open to a lot of changes.

Its why am I very interested to see if Disney finally tackles this dimension to the program... by introducing an element of investment or trade for visiting the parks. It could be something like total uses, or a linking of costs to uses, or doing other things like adding on more per visit costs (like removing parking privs, etc).

Maybe!

Yes, controlling it very much is the top change we will see IMO. I was just responding to your point begging why people look at Disneyland's AP situation differently than everywhere else... because it is different than everywhere else

We'll see what they do! Either way, we at least agree they should still keep them, but yes can drastically make changes to them.

 

[flynnibus]

I guess this is where nuance part of the argument is difficult lol. I mean I hear you're saying, but that's why they call them 'annual' passes right? You have a start and end date within 365 days. You're limited based on the pass and price. I guess I don't really understand your point here. That's how all passes works, including every Disney pass. I mean I'm just stating the obvious.

While most season pass programs operate that way - it's only really a major problem at Disneyland because of the differences around that park and it's fanbase. The point being was that perk is one of the fundamental issues Disney needs to address to ultimately get a handle on their AP problem. In most other scenarios, while that _potential_ is there, it's not a big deal because the crowd patterns are more diverse and people simply don't come as often.

We'll see what they do! Either way, we at least agree they should still keep them, but yes can drastically make changes to them.

Most certainly - The 'being part of the club' is something Disney will want to nurture and maintain. It's a point of bragging - that kind of brand loyalty every company would kill for. Disney isn't going to throw out the baby... they are just going to bring it back with more controls.

In any other situation I would have thought Disney didn't have the stones to make the radical changes... but they've already made the biggest, and hardest call... to basically 'kill' the program. So I'm cautiously optimistic their first go will have significant changes beyond just advanced scheduling.

 

[fctiger]

They should do two passes. One disneyland only no parking (maybe add on) and one Disneyland/california adventure includes parking. Both could have allotment days but the second would give you more.

Just make it simple as possible.

Like this idea a lot. And I think a lot of people would choose a DL only pass, but plenty (like me) would get one for both parks too.

 

[DanielBB8]

There’s no mention of the locals season pass that’s usually offered in the Spring. A 2 or 3 day pass, park hopping or not. 4 variants. The pass is offered in January and expires by May. They also offered a summer 3 day pass for locals, but this is more rare. Depends on the economic situation.
This discussion about longer stays at Disneyland Resort is idiotic since they clearly made the choice to not build additional hotels rooms to capture this market. They can’t cash in from those willing to spend. That’s why those who want the immersive experience have to visit Disney World. Everyone is literally a local at Anaheim.