Disney(World) vs. Disney(land)?

[WDW1974]

Spirit ..what are ur predicitions for the future of WDW, in terms of putting more money back into attractions and show?

edit.. I am 49 , so i meant in my life time

I just don't know.

I am feeling more positive than in a very long time, but I also think (and hope I've said as much) that I think this a long haul deal.

As long as TDO has existed in its current structure/business model (talking at least the mid-90s, maybe earlier!) they have never had their proverbial noses rubbed in 'it' like they are now. And all the timeshare units, interactive queues and iPhone apps simply isn't going to compete with what UNI (and SW parks as well) are building.

Believe it or not (this is for my friend Frank), DD isn't a priority at all with Burbank. The issues they are worried about are much deeper, much more serious.

 

[disney fan 13]

These short term cuts sound pretty bad, cutting operating hours, closing hotels, etc. I just hope that Maintenance doesn't take a hit as well...

 

[Jim Handy]

Interesting post as always. I suppose I'll start with Racers...

Cars Land and Radiator Springs Racers are phenomenal. But DCA really needed something to call its own. Something to make it different from everything else. WDW and DCA already share Soarin, TSMM, Muppet Vision, Tough to be a Bug, and soon will share Mermaid. That's a huge part of that park's roster. If any part of Cars Land comes east, it would further cheapen the brand on both coasts, but more importantly, take the exclusivity of the biggest draw DL Resort has ever seen. Lasseter will either protect the park he's put so much in to by blocking the DHS version or look to spread Cars by supporting it. If George put up a stink, he'd risk rattling a lot of nerves with people in Burbank in Orlando. Corporate politics could get bad in that situation.

I find the bits about scaled back operating hours at attractions or cut dining hours to be alarming. Again, if that is true, it all goes back to value.
And I'm very surprised to hear about the occupancy rates. If I remember right, WDW averages high 80s so for it to be down in the 60s is very significant. This is the stuff we saw post 9/11, and what I've been predicting all along. The public would catch on.

I'm relieved that Disney may be realizing they are not the only gig in Orlando anymore. They have to work for their success. And the damage will continue until they swing for the fences like Universal. Fantasyland was never going to do the trick and from what I hear Universal will be going public with a few projects this fall. Even of Disney started building a huge project right now, it would take a minimum of 2 years, likely 3 or 4 for it to open. That's still a couple years where WDW will have nothing to speak of, while Universal will be in a huge development cycle.

What we can hope for now is that there is a wake up in Burbank and Orlando. That people are held accountable and get packed away.

It's a fact that WDI has the plans and Disney has the money to blow the socks off the industry in Florida, we just need the right people. We need the right people yesterday, though. An that's the problem.

 

[NoChesterHester]

A real "rumor" on the rumors board. I just fell out of my chair and hit the floor.

 

[Skyway]

It makes sense the day has finally come that forces pulling visitors off WDW property are greater than what DME, DDP, and MYW tickets can do to keep them there.

Spirit-- you say DHS is the greatest concern. I assume that's because a primarily-WDW visitor with limited vacation days is more likely to skip DHS in favor of Universal, SeaWorld, or other outside park.

So how does AK play into the equation these days? My understanding is that originally AK proved that most visitors would/could not extend their vacations, and so going to AK meant sacrificing a day at another Disney park instead of adding a 4th day. I've assumed that, due to that factor, it made little financial sense to expand AK.

With DHS a priority now, is it that AK is still not worth major investment? Or is AK finally strong enough stand on its own these days?

 

[Jim Handy]

Also, I've heard DHS isn't the only park under the microscope at the moment, and Epcot may be making its way in to the picture. Strictly rumor and I have no details. All I can say is things are heating up on that front. Disney is inspired by Test Track it seems.

 

[WDW1974]

Interesting post as always. I suppose I'll start with Racers...

Cars Land and Radiator Springs Racers are phenomenal. But DCA really needed something to call its own. Something to make it different from everything else. WDW and DCA already share Soarin, TSMM, Muppet Vision, Tough to be a Bug, and soon will share Mermaid. That's a huge part of that park's roster. If any part of Cars Land comes east, it would further cheapen the brand on both coasts, but more importantly, take the exclusivity of the biggest draw DL Resort has ever seen. Lasseter will either protect the park he's put so much in to by blocking the DHS version or look to spread Cars by supporting it. If George put up a stink, he'd risk rattling a lot of nerves with people in Burbank in Orlando. Corporate politics could get bad in that situation.

DCA is having an amazing summer. The reports (mostly by Al Lutz) are true in regard to DCA often outpacing DL attendance daily. And everyone seems to say that DLR is a so much more pleasant place to be this summer than it has in years.

RSRs isn't the only reason, but its guest ratings are through the stratosphere (again, this is another reason why TDO is suddenly all hyped to the idea that it could be 'the attraction' to not only reinvigorate the very tired Studios park, but the entire resort). Of course, that's exactly why DCA would like to keep it as an exclusive and who could blame them?

It would be nice if WDI could come up with an E-Ticket (or half dozen over four parks) that could wow that doesn't exist in other parks or in the same form. You could do something different with Cars ... or not use it at all. But that doesn't appear to be what Disney is thinking.

And it isn't simply what is already duplicated ... I will bet you that Wishes replacement takes full advantage of the hot, concrete, empty hub and we wind up with a show combining WoC with Dreams.

I find the bits about scaled back operating hours at attractions or cut dining hours to be alarming. Again, if that is true, it all goes back to value.
And I'm very surprised to hear about the occupancy rates. If I remember right, WDW averages high 80s so for it to be down in the 60s is very significant. This is the stuff we saw post 9/11, and what I've been predicting all along. The public would catch on.

Disney has done this since the late 90s, 9/11 just gave them an excuse to make them more drastic. What I wouldn't give for another great Spoodles lunch or Bonfamille's dinner. ... Occupancy across property hasn't met projections and August is when things slow down to begin with (hence, free dining always being offered ... well, since 2005 anyway) that time of year. One resort may be sold out (of its 'available' occupancy) tonight, but it doesn't matter if others are much worse.

And, yes, the cuts feel like a lighter version of post 9/11.

Again, when was the last time WDW didn't keep the MK open one night until midnight in August?

I'm relieved that Disney may be realizing they are not the only gig in Orlando anymore. They have to work for their success. And the damage will continue until they swing for the fences like Universal. Fantasyland was never going to do the trick and from what I hear Universal will be going public with a few projects this fall. Even of Disney started building a huge project right now, it would take a minimum of 2 years, likely 3 or 4 for it to open. That's still a couple years where WDW will have nothing to speak of, while Universal will be in a huge development cycle.

What we can hope for now is that there is a wake up in Burbank and Orlando. That people are held accountable and get packed away.

It's a fact that WDI has the plans and Disney has the money to blow the socks off the industry in Florida, we just need the right people. We need the right people yesterday, though. An that's the problem.

UNI is working practically 24/7 on its projects. Disney ... well still need another 18 months to build a kiddie coaster. That is a fundamental problem. Disney doesn't have that can do 'tude anymore ... they take ridiculous amounts of time to build things.

I'm sorry fanbois, but it shouldn't take more time in the 21st century to build this Fantasyland expansion than it took in the 20th century to build EPCOT Center. That is pure and utter (expletive deleted).

 

[WDW1974]

A real "rumor" on the rumors board. I just fell out of my chair and hit the floor.

Yep ... and not only rumor, but plenty of REAL NEWS in there too (and not much Disney-bashing, just a little to taste!)

 

[El Grupo]

It's a fact that WDI has the plans and Disney has the money to blow the socks off the industry in Florida, we just need the right people. We need the right people yesterday, though. An that's the problem.

Much truth in this statement. I would also add that Disney needed to appreciate and act on the incentive to change. Sounds like they may have recognized the motivation. Now we'll get to see how they respond.

 

[WDW1974]

It makes sense the day has finally come that forces pulling visitors off WDW property are greater than what DME, DDP, and MYW tickets can do to keep them there.

Spirit-- you say DHS is the greatest concern. I assume that's because a primarily-WDW visitor with limited vacation days is more likely to skip DHS in favor of Universal, SeaWorld, or other outside park.

So how does AK play into the equation these days? My understanding is that originally AK proved that most visitors would/could not extend their vacations, and so going to AK meant sacrificing a day at another Disney park instead of adding a 4th day. I've assumed that, due to that factor, it made little financial sense to expand AK.

With DHS a priority now, is it that AK is still not worth major investment? Or is AK finally strong enough stand on its own these days?

TPFKaTD-MGMS is bleeding guests and that's after they upped the hours back this summer and returned Fantasmic to nightly showings. They thought Star Tours 2.0 would be huge. While successful, it isn't that.

DAK has surpassed it in attendance without anything new whatsoever. I don't think either park can stand on its own right now (beyond MK and EPCOT), but Pandora will likely/maybe/possibly be open by say 2021, so the focus is on the park they feel is the biggest mess, can be fixed easiest (because us EPCOT lovers will tell you that park has huge problems, basically FW has no identity and is largely boring as hell) and get approval from the money folks.

Oh, and while I can't say anything yet (expect to hear about yet another new EPCOT eatery very soon!)

 

[NoChesterHester]

Here is the funny thing. We kept hearing that "Free Dining is a Huge Hit and the resorts are full." A couple weeks later all these rooms opened up. It was easy to snag a reservation. Next thing we know is the promotion is extended... twice. If they were so full then why would they extend discounts? From an outsider's point of view the marketing seemed flat. Repeated. False demand.

I think we saw one phased closing this summer - MK on the 4th... I remember visiting the resort in the 90's when MGM and MK were on phased closings. A couple of days. People everywhere. That was when the three parks had more attractions too! (This could be a cloudy memory so please forgive me.)

I don't know that attendance sucks, but it does seem to be leveling off. Especially when you consider their competition is seeing growth.

We ended up canceling our trip this year, just looking at it there wasn't a new compelling reason to visit since our last trip in 2010. No... a refurbished Tiki doesn't count. We will probably visit again after Test Track re-opens so we have something new to see.

Now we have noticed how even the base package cost has really risen quickly. When we have viable local alternatives, like Dollywood, that seem to open a new attraction every year we have to really justify the expense and trek to go to WDW even though we love it. We have been so many times and the parks really kind of feel the same as they did 15 years ago.

This post makes me hopeful. Very hopeful.

 

[the.dreamfinder]

Couple Questions:
1)How likely/possible is it for SDMT to be sped up so WDI can focus on more important projects?
2)Is there any chance that a certain Muppet ride gets built as part of the DHS makeover?

Thanks for passing this NEWS to us!

 

[menamechris]

So the big question is how long before we hear anything. Or will TDO have countless meetings about it over the next year - only to throw their hands up and say "Oh, forget it - Let's just build another DVC".

 

[WDW1974]

Couple Questions:
1)How likely/possible is it for SDMT to be sped up so WDI can focus on more important projects?
2)Is there any chance that a certain Muppet ride gets built as part of the DHS makeover?

Thanks for passing this NEWS to us!

1.) Not at all likely;
2.) Almost none at all;

You're welcome.

 

[WDW1974]

So the big question is how long before we hear anything. Or will TDO have countless meetings about it over the next year - only to throw their hands up and say "Oh, forget it - Let's just build another DVC".

Can't answer that. You may well see things happen without any announcement at first (see any recent DVCs or what UNI has done of late).

Oh, and there will be plenty of new DVCs. Count on that. They have five proposed right now, including GF and I don't think that includes adding them inside EPCOT, which has been blue skied.

But I also wouldn't expect them to just say 'forget about it' ... this will HAPPEN in one form or other ... too much momentum, too much need and too many execs running scared. That's how you get things done.

 

[Brewmaster]

@WDW1974 thank you for providing the fiber supplement to this otherwise backed up forum (its been a month or two since our last movement)! Let's spend some time sinking our teeth into what may be a surplus of chatter to wade through, but as always sir you do not disappoint.

RSR, well let's call that a jumping off point. An impressive attraction (from the full HD ride-thrus I've seen), with cutting edge AA's (we all like those, yes?) and breathtaking vistas. But what else could be lurking? Pixar is surely the front runner for DHS, is there a possibility of an original storyline, you know that category of attractions that have defined Disney as a leader in themed entertainment? One can hope...

 

[HenryMystic]

Quite a splash you've made Spirit.

I agree that Cars Land should be a DLR exclusive, and hopefully, Lasseter will use his influence to help both resorts for once. While I knock WDI from time to time, I know they can do something equally as good as Cars Land with a different property for DHS.

I still hold out hope that Iger leaves before ground breaks on Avatar. Mystic Point would be a preferable replacement.

 

[WDW1974]

@WDW1974 thank you for providing the fiber supplement to this otherwise backed up forum (its been a month or two since our last movement)! Let's spend some time sinking our teeth into what may be a surplus of chatter to wade through, but as always sir you do not disappoint.

RSR, well let's call that a jumping off point. An impressive attraction (from the full HD ride-thrus I've seen), with cutting edge AA's (we all like those, yes?) and breathtaking vistas. But what else could be lurking? Pixar is surely the front runner for DHS, is there a possibility of an original storyline, you know that category of attractions that have defined Disney as a leader in themed entertainment? One can hope...

I'd love to see attractions based on The Incredibles and even UP. ... I think WALL*E has so much potential, but let's not forget that the average WDW guest looks like one of those folks on those hover-seats. Hell, I think you could do so many things from A Bug's Life too that wasn't exploited in Anaheim. ... And even the new (and wonderful) Brave has possibilities. ... But Disney tends to take the easy way out. ... They couldn't have come up with a different theme for TSMM in Tokyo? Of course they could have.

 

[WDW1974]

Quite a splash you've made Spirit.

I agree that Cars Land should be a DLR exclusive, and hopefully, Lasseter will use his influence to help both resorts for once. While I knock WDI from time to time, I know they can do something equally as good as Cars Land with a different property for DHS.

I still hold out hope that Iger leaves before ground breaks on Avatar. Mystic Point would be a preferable replacement.

Yeah, that's because the 30 pounds I am always looking to lose this time of year are still part of my mid-section!

At this rate, I think Iger could be gone first (no, those balloon tests didn't convince me of anything other than Disney was doing some height tests ... like they do all the time!)

But Mystic Point will be a HKDL exclusive. I'm betting it stays that way. While Mystic Manor is a new 'take' on the Mansion, that is what it is. We already have a great version of that one. It also would be as bad a fit at DAK as Avatar.

 

[MarkTwain]

I'm not sure how to reply to this... I guess I'll keep it short.

I think it's great that TDO is finally starting to recognize the problems affecting their resort... but their approach to solving them is completely wrong. The losses to their resort have been because of excessive cheapness, and they attempt to reverse that through more cheapness? Give us a reason to come back, to stay longer than the 3-4 days my family has been doing each year... that doesn't include a rehashed version of the same old parade or a new castle show, and a clone of Disneyland's new ride without all the interesting context doesn't count either. That's a cop-out, and one I'm hopeful Lasseter/Staggs/Kalogridis will attempt to prevent. Avatar is on the right track, but they need more content that is both unique to WDW and significantly appealing. As it is, cutting EMH perks or attraction hours won't encourage people to stay on property. Quite the opposite, actually.