News Disney World Cast Member unions to begin week of negotiations for wage increases, healthcare costs and more

[Alanzo]

No it's not - that's how you discredit conclusions - by discrediting or debunking the logic and supporting material the conclusion is drawn from. Your position here is.. insane. Dissecting an argument is now a fallacy? lol

He was just joking around with me. We've made amends and have agreed that we will subtly add a fallacy to our posts when one or the other is not being serious. I mean the old ways of just letting the humor hang out there are better, of course, as anything older is superior, but this will work as well.

 

[flynnibus]

Or a lower markup.

Half-full, half-empty?

This is kind of a angry perspective. Of course there is markup, you're talking about a catering company operating for profit, not charity. If the prices are below comparable market rates, why would you chastise it as 'less markup' instead of a positive posture? Plus, you don't know if the net price is due to lower margins, or potential subsidies from Disney in how the prices are set.

 

[Drdcm]

No it's not - that's how you discredit conclusions - by discrediting or debunking the logic and supporting material the conclusion is drawn from. Your position here is.. insane. Dissecting an argument is now a fallacy? lol

It was a joke, but apparently not a very good one

 

[RobWDW1971]

$17/hr is a hair less than $500/week take home.

Good luck surviving off of that in Orlando without at least a roommate in a shared one bedroom. Great moment to get romantically involved with someone to split rent with.

Fair enough. You seem to have a strong opinion on the topic. The other poster noted his answer for our hypothetical ODV popcorn vendor's living wage was $17/hour.

If you disagree, what specifically is the hourly wage you are suggesting?

We live in the real world so broad hypothetical statements are not very useful, what exactly is the "living wage" Disney should pay our ODV vendor who applies off the street per hour?

I assume since you are passionate about "living wage" you can articulate what exactly that would be for a basic front line operational position at WDW.

 

[flynnibus]

Please define "their lifestyle"

This I want to know. Lifestyle implies some sort of luxury - so I want this defined.

No, lifestyle implies CHOICES. Same as was highlighted before. Life choices like being married, having kids, where they live, what they chose to sacrifice or prioritize, etc.

That's the crux of the problem... the emotion argument is "Look at Joe here who can't afford to make ends meet" -- But you can't systematically define what "Joe" is allowed to have in his life vs someone else's criteria without ing off everyone.. or.. leaving Joe out to dry still not being able to afford his lifestyle.

People in this thread said "live somewhere else" "make sacrifices" or any other flavor of CHOICE -- and the emotional side give Joe a blind faith pass that Joe should be made whole no matter what. That isn't feasible when applied to everyone... else you end up in your 'least common denominator' scenario you pointed to before where EVERY job just became as expensive as needed to support the employees with the highest expenses.

"everyone gets a trophy" doesn't work when dealing with economics. Eventually there is no more money to hand out. If every Job made every employee whole... nothing would get done because inflation would be through the roof.

Eventually you must come to the conclusion that not all work can be fully self-supporting... and ultimately you still need people doing that work... so you will have people living below your self-supporting standard.

 

[mkt]

That’s an excellent point. Are the dapper dans modern? No. Should Disney put them in skinny jeans and have them sing “immortals” by fallout boy or “when can we do it again” by owl city?

It’s modern! It’s with the times!

Now ideally there is some room for type casting. A long beard looks fine in Frontierland. Piercings and visible tatoos fit in at Rock n roller coaster and some goth makeup is fine at haunted mansion.

The Dapper Dans are equity performers whose roles, rules, and responsibilities fall outside of the rules frontline CMs and salaried CMs have to follow.

And they’re extremely skilled CMs that Disney did not have to train.

 

[flynnibus]

I can read it?

What he said without saying it is... he's probably outside the US

 

[mkt]

If you disagree, what specifically is the hourly wage you are suggesting?

3x average price for a 1 bedroom apartment within a 1 hour commuting distance as net pay.

You can do the math.

 

[TrainsOfDisney]

The Dapper Dans are equity performers whose roles, rules, and responsibilities fall outside of the rules frontline CMs and salaried CMs have to follow.

And they’re extremely skilled CMs that Disney did not have to train.

They are also very well paid!

But that has nothing to do with the point I made in my post - but everything you said is indeed a fact.

 

[mkt]

Disney offered cast discounts on DCL. Uni has no ships.

A discount on a cruise you can't afford to go on even if discounted. Either because it's still expensive, or because you can't afford to take time off to go.

Thanks for the benefit?

 

[celluloid]

It's not a matter of finding a perfect society, but recognizing the very real problems that exist in our own country.

Why country?

Why not as large as the world and as little as ourselves? The man in the mirror approach.

 

[celluloid]

A discount on a cruise you can't afford to go on even if discounted. Either because it's still expensive, or because you can't afford to take time off to go.

Thanks for the benefit?

And Uni, although not owning ships, finds ways to give discounts to cruises and other recreation through reciprocal program. So they pay more, and offer more. They win again in this regard.

The hotel discounts for Lowes and theirs are amazing! I don't recall Disney ever giving 40 percent for friends or 50-60 percent off rates if you stay with the party like Universal's Red-Carpet Program

 

[Vegas Disney Fan]

A discount on a cruise you can't afford to go on even if discounted. Either because it's still expensive, or because you can't afford to take time off to go.

Thanks for the benefit?

Some can’t afford to go on, I have a couple friends who work for Disney who take advantage of these perks all the time.

This brings up another living wage question, how much should an employee who’s married and has a spouse that makes a lot of money make? Or a retiree who has saved all their life and has millions in the bank but wants to work part time to get out of the house, get health benefits, and get free tickets and discounted cruises?

 

[mkt]

This brings up another living wage question, how much should an employee who’s married and has a spouse that makes a lot of money make? Or a retiree who has saved all their life and has millions in the bank but wants to work part time to get out of the house, get health benefits, and get free tickets and discounted cruises?

The same. Same work, same pay.

 

[flynnibus]

I get where you're coming from, but I think we need to steer clear of the false dichotomy of 'utopia or bust'.

It's not a matter of finding a perfect society, but recognizing the very real problems that exist in our own country.

That goes both ways tho - you can't chastise employers for failing to meet impossible standards. The point of the statement was to point out the difficulty in the goal you defined. So difficult, that no modern society on earth has achieved it.

So in the spirit of 'do better', how about setting standards that are achievable... and accepting that those standards are not perfect, and not everyone can get everything they want. You can want better wages for people without having to embrace utopian ideals no one can achieve in our free society.

Sad to say, that means some people are going to be left behind. But when people circle back to that not being acceptable, then they need to face ALL the factors their ambitions interact with, not just the ones they pick and chose.

Even in societies today with extreme altruism and economic policies to try to flatten the disparity between individuals (Like Norway), there are still homeless, drugs, crime, and people struggling to afford what they chose in life. The minimum standard of living is exceptionally high there, and people migrate to Norway from all over the world to try to benefit from it... but it is still a model that isn't sustainable on its own and relies heavily on globalism and trade to fund its way of life.

 

[TrainsOfDisney]

Even in societies today with extreme altruism and economic policies to try to flatten the disparity between individuals (Like Norway), there are still homeless

I’m wondering how many of the homeless in Norway are working 40 hours a week for a major corporation?

 

[Tony the Tigger]

I did my time in the parks - WDW (all 4) and Universal Orlando (USF and IOA). The patience I developed there has guided me through a career in corporate America having to translate business and engineering speak into actionable creative deliverables, while at the same time controlling my desire to tell people who are less experienced than me and poorly-prepared to jump out of a 31st story window and into a thimble filled with thumb tacks.

That’s exactly how it’s supposed to work.

but Disney's training was superior

So, Disney training has value for “unskilled” workers that potentially benefits them in future, better jobs.

I spend so many hours paying people to learn, I should charge tuition.

I have to teach high school and college kids basic, basic things. Safety, security, how to speak in a professional manner, how you can’t call out whenever you want because this isn’t school - and, most importantly, the plural of “vinyl” is “vinyl,” not “vinyls.”

I have to teach 60 year olds how to copy and paste, use a spreadsheet, respond to questions on social media, and how to tell the difference between a message that has been already read, responded to, forwarded, and from whom they were sent.

One guy who used to fight me a lot on how to do things moved to Texas, started working at a storage facility, and was quickly promoted to management. He called to thank me because what I taught him (at my expense) was what impressed them and helped him get promoted.

I hire “low level” jobs but prepare them for “real” jobs down the road better than school did.

 

[flynnibus]

I’m wondering how many of the homeless in Norway are working 40 hours a week for a major corporation?

So you're saying only some employees matter?

You're missing the point - even when given the opportunity, choices will cause some to be out of the groove. For some those choices mean rock bottom, for others that can simply mean being overcommitted and broke.

Said person can be on skidrow because they blew up everything they had... not just because they never had the opportunity to have a life made whole.

When the ambition is no one left behind - truth is you can't save everyone.

 

[Lilofan]

I’m wondering how many of the homeless in Norway are working 40 hours a week for a major corporation?

In Norway even the homeless are entitled to free healthcare/college.

 

[Alanzo]

That goes both ways tho - you can't chastise employers for failing to meet impossible standards. The point of the statement was to point out the difficulty in the goal you defined. So difficult, that no modern society on earth has achieved it.

So in the spirit of 'do better', how about setting standards that are achievable... and accepting that those standards are not perfect, and not everyone can get everything they want. You can want better wages for people without having to embrace utopian ideals no one can achieve in our free society.

Sad to say, that means some people are going to be left behind. But when people circle back to that not being acceptable, then they need to face ALL the factors their ambitions interact with, not just the ones they pick and chose.

Even in societies today with extreme altruism and economic policies to try to flatten the disparity between individuals (Like Norway), there are still homeless, drugs, crime, and people struggling to afford what they chose in life. The minimum standard of living is exceptionally high there, and people migrate to Norway from all over the world to try to benefit from it... but it is still a model that isn't sustainable on its own and relies heavily on globalism and trade to fund its way of life.

I totally agree that setting achievable standards is important, and we should not strive for utopian ideals that are impossible to achieve.

However, I don't think it's unreasonable to expect employers to treat their workers fairly and provide them with a living wage. It's not about achieving perfection, but about striving for better and recognizing that we can do more to support the most vulnerable members of our society.

As for the education system, we can certainly work towards providing a better quality of education to children, regardless of their background or socioeconomic status. This is not about having unrealistic expectations, but about recognizing that education is a crucial aspect of society that should be prioritized.

I also acknowledge that achieving a perfect society is not possible and there will always be some level of disparity and inequality. However, this does not mean that we should give up on trying to improve the lives of those who are struggling. We can work to find practical solutions that make a meaningful difference, rather than dismissing the issue as unachievable.

In the end, the goal should be to create a society where everyone has the opportunity to succeed, even if that means accepting that some people will have to work harder than others to achieve their goals. By working together and acknowledging the complex factors at play, we can move towards a more equitable and just society.

Edit: We can also just agree to disagree here