News Disney Riviera Resort announced

[GoofGoof]

Missed my point entirely. I said there is no reason the small dormer windows on the towers to either side couldn't be rounded windows and dormers to match the ones on the main tower. Other than they would be more expensive.

Yeah, missed what the gripe was entirely. Sorry about that. In my defense your original post was not as clear but I see what you meant by it now that you clarified. I apparently wasn’t the only one who misunderstood as a few posts later someone came to your defense over the fake rounded windows they thought was the issue.

I see your point on the windows not being consistent in shape. I’m not sure if that was a design decision or something more practical like saving money or just wanting windows that opened wider. On a multi-million dollar project this size how much would they really save on rectangular dormers/windows vs rounded?

 

[GoofGoof]

Sorry if this has already been addressed previously, but still no pics or info about pool or amenities? Are they planning on selling this only on the rooftop restaurant and gondola access only?

We are still probably a few months away from points going on sale. This is the pretty standard tease done for DVC projects. When they get closer to starting sales we’ll see a lot more details. It shouldn’t be long now.

I do think the gondolas and rooftop lounge will of course be featured prominently in all of the sales materials but the place will have all the regular resort type bells and whistles too.

 

[Missing20K]

Yeah, missed what the gripe was entirely. Sorry about that. In my defense your original post was not as clear but I see what you meant by it now that you clarified. I apparently wasn’t the only one who misunderstood as a few posts later someone came to your defense over the fake rounded windows they thought was the issue.

I see your point on the windows not being consistent in shape. I’m not sure if that was a design decision or something more practical like saving money or just wanting windows that opened wider. On a multi-million dollar project this size how much would they really save on rectangular dormers/windows vs rounded?

You’re right I wasn’t super clear, I apologize I will try to edit the post.

The reasoning is likely myriad due to the number of stakeholders on a large project.

My original point of comparing it to the McMansion Hell blog was partially in jest, but also to maybe get folks to look at this building a little differently and try to take in some of the details and massing, and why they may appear odd to some of us (perhaps only a vocal minority, I know).

Round windows are simply a bigger pain to install, flash, counterflash, and seal. The price of the window itself is just a single consideration. Back of the envelope math? If the difference was $4000 between window and installation, if you have 25 windows = $100,000. When you begin to VE line item construction costs, 100k for a window deduct looks like easy money. But honestly it could have been even less than that, I have no idea what TDO specs for their windows other than going by FL Bldg Code and I defer to @lazyboy97o for that.

But it could just as easily be a design (albeit a poor one in my book) decision.

 

[GoofGoof]

The hypocrisy being complaining about poorly designed large homes while living in a small home, yes? Thus implying a larger home is better than a smaller home.

You’re right I wasn’t super clear, I apologize I will try to edit the post.

The reasoning is likely myriad due to the number of stakeholders on a large project.

My original point of comparing it to the McMansion Hell blog was partially in jest, but also to maybe get folks to look at this building a little differently and try to take in some of the details and massing, and why they may appear odd to some of us (perhaps only a vocal minority, I know).

Round windows are simply a bigger pain to install, flash, counterflash, and seal. The price of the window itself is just a single consideration. Back of the envelope math? If the difference was $4000 between window and installation, if you have 25 windows = $100,000. When you begin to VE line item construction costs, 100k for a window deduct looks like easy money. But honestly it could have been even less than that, I have no idea what TDO specs for their windows other than going by FL Bldg Code and I defer to @lazyboy97o for that.

But it could just as easily be a design (albeit a poor one in my book) decision.

I’m guessing this resort is going to cost somewhere in the $300-$500M range to build (an uneducated guess based on rumored costs of BLT) so $100K seems like a small drop in the bucket to me, but I know how budget cuts work so it’s certainly possible it was a cost consideration.

I don’t pretend to be an expert on design and I’m sure the “experts” here will be quick to disagree, but I’m not sure I would green light an extra $100K to make the windows on either side of the center round if I had to make that call. I’d have to see how it would look and what alternatives options I’d have to spend that money on, but I’m not sure it would be worth the extra cost. There still seems to be a nice symmetry with the “fake” round windows on the top of the center of the tower with the RR symbol matching the ones on the porte cochere and the windows on either side of the center of the tower rectangular. I can’t tell from the art and construction photos if those are also fake windows or if they are actual windows with usable space behind them. If they are real windows it could be more of a practical reason to make them rectangle shaped so they open and close easier wth bigger openings.

 

[Missing20K]

I’m guessing this resort is going to cost somewhere in the $300-$500M range to build (an uneducated guess based on rumored costs of BLT) so $100K seems like a small drop in the bucket to me, but I know how budget cuts work so it’s certainly possible it was a cost consideration.

I don’t pretend to be an expert on design and I’m sure the “experts” here will be quick to disagree, but I’m not sure I would green light an extra $100K to make the windows on either side of the center round if I had to make that call. I’d have to see how it would look and what alternatives options I’d have to spend that money on, but I’m not sure it would be worth the extra cost. There still seems to be a nice symmetry with the “fake” round windows on the top of the center of the tower with the RR symbol matching the ones on the porte cochere and the windows on either side of the center of the tower rectangular. I can’t tell from the art and construction photos if those are also fake windows or if they are actual windows with usable space behind them. If they are real windows it could be more of a practical reason to make them rectangle shaped so they open and close easier wth bigger openings.

Each drop in the bucket counts, right?

Windows that high above grade won’t be operable, regardless if they are occupied or not.

 

[Lensman]

It was a commentary of the hypocrisy of internet trolls, not the actual houses. smh lol

How are the McMansion Instagramers hypocritical?

Also, how would living in a small condo/co-op in NYC make one unable to have good taste to identify poor or nonexistent architectural choices? And even if the people posting on IG are living in a hovel, how does that keep them from having good taste or knowledge of architecture?

Besides, what's the problem with making snarky comments about people who have more money than taste? I'd think we'd mostly be sympathetic to that here in this forum.

The hypocrisy being complaining about poorly designed large homes while living in a small home, yes? Thus implying a larger home is better than a smaller home.

You’re right I wasn’t super clear, I apologize I will try to edit the post.

The reasoning is likely myriad due to the number of stakeholders on a large project.

My original point of comparing it to the McMansion Hell blog was partially in jest, but also to maybe get folks to look at this building a little differently and try to take in some of the details and massing, and why they may appear odd to some of us (perhaps only a vocal minority, I know).

Round windows are simply a bigger pain to install, flash, counterflash, and seal. The price of the window itself is just a single consideration. Back of the envelope math? If the difference was $4000 between window and installation, if you have 25 windows = $100,000. When you begin to VE line item construction costs, 100k for a window deduct looks like easy money. But honestly it could have been even less than that, I have no idea what TDO specs for their windows other than going by FL Bldg Code and I defer to @lazyboy97o for that.

But it could just as easily be a design (albeit a poor one in my book) decision.

Even the earliest concept art has the rectangular vs round window/non-window issues, btw.

I also see a lot of rectangular windows on mansard roofs, but is that because they've been retrofitted over the years? I guess I'm not entirely certain what the architectural objection is of mixing window shapes.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mansard_roof#/media/File:Dampierre_en_Yvelines_Chateau_02.jpg

(I'm looking to be educated, I'm not trying to be contrary)

 

[GoofGoof]

Each drop in the bucket counts, right?

Windows that high above grade won’t be operable, regardless if they are occupied or not.

Yeah, I’ll take $100 grand is someone has it lying around. It adds up fast too.

I agree they are likely just for show and not operable. The space behind them is probably not usable either. It’s just for show.

 

[Rteetz]

 

[GoofGoof]

Even the earliest concept art has the rectangular vs round window/non-window issues, btw.

I also see a lot of rectangular windows on mansard roofs, but is that because they've been retrofitted over the years? I guess I'm not entirely certain what the architectural objection is of mixing window shapes.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mansard_roof#/media/File:Dampierre_en_Yvelines_Chateau_02.jpg

(I'm looking to be educated, I'm not trying to be contrary)

There are real life examples of mixing square and round windows in French inspired architecture (French provincial?), but most are one or the other. I still think it’s probably just a design choice (good/poor choice is a matter of opinion) and something most people will never even notice, but Disney has always been about obsessing over details that most people never notice so I think it’s a valid discussion

 

[lazyboy97o]

I can’t tell from the art and construction photos if those are also fake windows or if they are actual windows with usable space behind them. If they are real windows it could be more of a practical reason to make them rectangle shaped so they open and close easier wth bigger openings.

As was stated, those windows are not long to open. If there is anything up in that space it would just be service space. Most of the attic space likely won’t have much use. The dormers are there for aesthetics which is why cost seems such a likely issue.

I also see a lot of rectangular windows on mansard roofs, but is that because they've been retrofitted over the years? I guess I'm not entirely certain what the architectural objection is of mixing window shapes.

The issue is not specifically the use of rectangular windows with a mansard roof. That isn’t anything odd or unusual. The problem is that differences should have some intention and relationship to one another. Windows is something that does come up a lot on McMansion Hell but I don’t think Kate has maintained a strong analysis of its larger problematic nature. Look at a lot of the examples of windows and you will see a smorgasbord of sizes. Even when right next to each other, you will see windows that are different by mere inches. The McMansion is part of this notion where a cacophony of elements is used to distract from poor design, that lots of "stuff" makes something better and more expensive. Diverging a bit, a great example is roofs. Go look at any recent subdivisions nd you will likely see roofs that go out in every which way. They are needlessly complicated outside of their "curb appeal" and often because of that complication they are difficult to maintain and can lead to actual problems like moisture damage that will go unnoticed for years. In the case of windows you might have something like a giant window placed in a bathroom that is inevitably covered up with a curtain and blinds because most people aren't exhibitionists. We're wasting money on lots of little bits that don't go together and don't have a purpose for being different. Instead of getting better sunlight or insulation, we get giant styrofoam column and styrofoam stones glued to the top of the walls help up by little gingerbread walls. We see a lot of this in themed design too, where many placed have started to rely on the "theme by junk" approach where adding in lots of stuff is considered detailed. Imaging if each dormer had a completely different window, we likely would have many people going on about how "detailed" the building is even through the different sizes serve no actual purpose. The elements are different to create visual chaos and distraction.

There are of course many reasons to have different windows used. Aesthetics is a perfectly acceptable reason but there is a difference between arranging something and just putting things wherever. There may well be a differing need that makes a window special, but it should also probably be treated as something special. This was already suggested as a reason, that there central tower is the more important feature and should have some distinction. This is a very good reason to establish a heir achy of spaces, but that sort of visual hierarchy is also something that should be carried through a design. If the center portion is supposed to be special, then that specialness should be shown through more than just a few dormers all the way at the top. Another reason that would be more unique to themed entertainment, is the suggestion of time, that the viewer is to believe the parts of the building were additions built at different times. Again though, there should be more to create this suggestion. It doesn't make sense for someone to go through the effort to have an addition very closely match the original and then suddenly not care with the dormers.

 

[MisterPenguin]

Aren't the rounded windows going on the rounded dormers and the rectangular windows going on the more rectilinear dormers?

 

[GoofGoof]

Aren't the rounded windows going on the rounded dormers and the rectangular windows going on the more rectilinear dormers?

Yes. I think if I’m following this discussion correctly, the issue is more around why they decided to use rounded dormers/windows in the center section but square windows/dormers on the sections on either side. I think the feeling is that it would look better or at least make more sense if they were all rounded, but the rectangle ones are likely cheaper so they went with them on the sides to save a few bucks.

 

[lazyboy97o]

The round dormers are not getting windows. For new construction you do not build a wall and then knock a hole in it for a window. The whole point of a dormer is the window.

 

[NiarrNDisney]

Wow I didn't realize the resort was that close to World Showcase!

 

[GoofGoof]

The round dormers are not getting windows. For new construction you do not build a wall and then knock a hole in it for a window. The whole point of a dormer is the window.

The round dormers in the center section aren’t getting windows. From the art it looks like they have some sort of symbol on them that may be lit up. Looks like an RR in the center and some other sort of design or symbol on the side ones. Like this:

I hear what you are saying that a dormer is supposed to be for a window but if they did put in glass windows instead of the decoration from the art above the windows would be fake anyway and serve no practical purpose.

 

[GoofGoof]

Wow I didn't realize the resort was that close to World Showcase!

It’s really close. You will be able to see and hear any fireworks at EPCOT.

 

[NiarrNDisney]

It’s really close. You will be able to see and hear any fireworks at EPCOT.

Oh for sure, as I mentioned (in other posts) you can easily see the roofline from areas of Canada and Showcase Plaza. I was just surprised to see from the aerial view just how close it really is. It's hard to gauge from ground level especially with all the vegetation in between.

 

[lazyboy97o]

The round dormers in the center section aren’t getting windows. From the art it looks like they have some sort of symbol on them that may be lit up. Looks like an RR in the center and some other sort of design or symbol on the side ones. Like this:
View attachment 338685

I hear what you are saying that a dormer is supposed to be for a window but if they did put in glass windows instead of the decoration from the art above the windows would be fake anyway and serve no practical purpose.

In themed entertainment there are lots of windows with unoccupied space behind them. The purpose they serve is the suggestion of space, building the environment of the story.

I'm going to use this image as an example:
https://www.mouseplanet.info/gallery/d/179476-1/image1_001.JPG

Look at the bay windows on the upper floors. There might be some storage space or make shift offices on the second floor, but nothing that functionally benefits from bay windows, which are all about increasing space and light. The bay windows are fake, but they suggest a traditional living space above the business. Imagine if there were no actual windows on those bays, just solid walls. That would looks rather silly because it has no relation to what is being suggested. Nobody would really go through the effort of building a bay window and then not having the windows.

 

[GiveMeLibertyTreeTavern]

Wow I didn't realize the resort was that close to World Showcase!

It's about 2600 feet from the domed tower portion of Riviera to the center of the World Showcase Lagoon, which is approximately the same distance as the Top of the World Lounge is relative to Cinderella's Castle.

 

[Missing20K]

I miss too much when I only look at the forums during the work week.

I don't have much to add beyond what @lazyboy97o has already said.

I had no idea this window thing would blow up so much, but my intent in mentioning the McMansion Hell blog was hyperbolic. Simply an attempt to use extreme examples (McMansion Hell) to shed light on much subtler examples (Disney Resort Architecture).

Window sizes, shapes, types can be interchanged and mixed and matched at the will of the designer. However, the execution of such a design is whether it is deemed successful or not. Generally speaking, this leads to designs in which fewer window types are used, as they tend to compliment one another more than a mishmash of different styles.