Disney Playing catch up with Universal... Potter Disney's biggest mistake in 20 years...

[MerlinTheGoat]

Life isn't that bad Marni. I survived watching the phantom menace..and I'm still a Star Wars fan and a new Star Wars movie is coming out! ...and you can do it...you can say at least one thing good about WDW.

I won't defend Phantom Menace, but in regards to movies, at the very least the original trilogy still exists. As stupid as TPM is, it didn't replace the originals or strike them from existence. The crappy thing about WDW though is that with every cut made to the parks, it's a cut that has every possibility of being irrecoverable. And the larger the cutback, the more likely it is that we won't be getting it back. Some of the smaller cutbacks such as maintenance can always be fixed of course, but bigger cuts like shuttered and gutted rides, attractions and pavilions are likely gone forever.

I can always go back and rewatch Empire Strikes Back and ignore the prequels if I want. It's not like the prequels overwrote and replaced it, striking the originals from existence. They're still great movies and still exist for everyone to experience if they want (despite Lucas' best efforts to muck with rereleases with pointless and stupid additions). But attractions at WDW aren't so easy to revisit when the executives shut them down and replace them with either nothing or highly inferior crap. I will almost certainly never be able to ride Horizons, the original Imagination or World of Motion ever again. They're gone and unlikely to ever return (the closest thing would perhaps be a 4.0 of Imagination but it's almost certainly not going to be the same as the original, and most likely not as good either).

The closest thing to revisiting them is to watch old vintage ridethrough videos taken with now ancient camera tech. I don't mean this as any disrespect to the wonderful people like Martin who had the foresight to record these rides when they were open (you're an awesome person and deserve nothing but the highest respect and admiration from us all), but I would imagine most people would agree that watching a video recording of a ride just doesn't come close to comparing to experiencing the real thing. Unless someone discovers affordable time travel that makes it possible to visit EPCOT from the 80's and early 90's, those rides are basically gone forever. It's probably how a lot of old school Doctor Who fans feel about lost episodes (unless old rare recordings are found tucked away in a corner somewhere, we'll need a literal TARDIS to get those back). I don't let crappy new movies nag at me too much because there are always the originals to revisit. But the potentially irreversible damage inflicted upon EPCOT, that definitely bothers me.

 

[Mike S]

I won't defend Phantom Menace, but in regards to movies, at the very least the original trilogy still exists. As stupid as TPM is, it didn't replace the originals or strike them from existence. The crappy thing about WDW though is that with every cut made to the parks, it's a cut that has every possibility of being irrecoverable. And the larger the cutback, the more likely it is that we won't be getting it back. Some of the smaller cutbacks such as maintenance can always be fixed of course, but bigger cuts like shuttered and gutted rides, attractions and pavilions are likely gone forever.

I can always go back and rewatch Empire Strikes Back and ignore the prequels if I want. It's not like the prequels overwrote and replaced it, striking the originals from existence. They're still great movies and still exist for everyone to experience if they want (despite Lucas' best efforts to muck with rereleases with pointless and stupid additions). But attractions at WDW aren't so easy to revisit when the executives shut them down and replace them with either nothing or highly inferior crap. I will almost certainly never be able to ride Horizons, the original Imagination or World of Motion ever again. They're gone and unlikely to ever return (the closest thing would perhaps be a 4.0 of Imagination but it's almost certainly not going to be the same as the original, and most likely not as good either).

The closest thing to revisiting them is to watch old vintage ridethrough videos taken with now ancient camera tech. I don't mean this as any disrespect to the wonderful people like Martin who had the foresight to record these rides when they were open (you're an awesome person and deserve nothing but the highest respect and admiration from us all), but I would imagine most people would agree that watching a video recording of a ride just doesn't come close to comparing to experiencing the real thing. Unless someone discovers affordable time travel that makes it possible to visit EPCOT from the 80's and early 90's, those rides are basically gone forever. It's probably how a lot of old school Doctor Who fans feel about lost episodes.

Look on the bright side. We still have Spaceship Earth, more or less. Universe of Energy may need an update but it's still good. Also The American Adventure and Maelstr...... Oh.....

Edit: How could I forget Living with the Land. It's no E Ticket but it's still a good representation of classic EPCOT Center in its purest form. Such a nice ride.

 

[MerlinTheGoat]

Look on the bright side. We still have Spaceship Earth, more or less. Universe of Energy may need an update but it's still good. Also The American Adventure and Maelstr...... Oh.....

At least SSE and UoE could theoretically be fixed up with the right people in charge, their downgrades aren't so alarming that they're completely irreversible as far as i'm concerned. Even in its gimped form SSE is still a very good ride. UOE is a bit more annoying with Ellen in charge throughout, but it's still somewhat fun. I even really enjoy Living With the Land (i've always enjoyed it to some extent, but it wasn't a favorite priority when Horizons, World of Motion and Imagination 1.0 were still around, but it has become a favorite remaining EPCOT classic in recent years for me). American Adventure is still pretty much completely awesome, it just needs a good maintenance-related refurb and perhaps a re-edit of the ending video clips to rid itself of all the celeb/athletes whose reputations have been ruined in recent years.

 

[Tony Perkis]

ok then why did it do so well in dvd blue ray sells? if 3D was the reason

Because Panasonic included the 3D Blu-Ray with every television and/or player purchase.

 

[Tony Perkis]

And I've gone on record of this before: I think Avatar is a terrible IP to build a land around. Not entirely because I think it's a bad movie (it is), but because it has no merchandising potential.

 

[TubaGeek]

And I've gone on record of this before: I think Avatar is a terrible IP to build a land around. Not entirely because I think it's a bad movie (it is), but because it has no merchandising potential.

You're right on that. I mean, yeah, Avatar can do... dolls or whatever, but that can't even BEGIN to compare with the food/bev and merch options of Potter. Potter wins regardless of what attractions they bless Pandora with.

 

[marni1971]

Life isn't that bad Marni. I survived watching the phantom menace..and I'm still a Star Wars fan and a new Star Wars movie is coming out! ...and you can do it...you can say at least one thing good about WDW.

Oh I do. I love so much that was built from 71- mid 00s. That's why I go. It's not for how the parks are currently being run.

 

[twebber55]

Because Panasonic included the 3D Blu-Ray with every television and/or player purchase.

http://snarkerati.com/movie-news/avatar-beats-the-dark-knight-in-first-day-blu-ray-sales/
http://www.deadline.com/2010/04/more-huge-sales-for-avatar-2d-dvd/
http://www.tomsguide.com/us/Avatar-Blu-ray-DVD-Sales-dark-knight,news-6600.html

your merchandising is a good point but, if we base everything on merchandising than hello kitty and pooh are much bigger in theme parks than harry potter

 

[Fox&Hound]

And I've gone on record of this before: I think Avatar is a terrible IP to build a land around. Not entirely because I think it's a bad movie (it is), but because it has no merchandising potential.

True, but mark my words, when the sequel comes out, a cute sidekick and exotic eating locale will take center stage in the movie. I think it will be like Pirates: who could possible foresee Davy Jones, the Kracken, and all the crazy, convoluted stuff the rest of the movies created that were barely present in the first movie??? We have no idea where the sequels will go and what possible tie-in's they could do. Plus, with AK open at night, I bet glow in the dark toys, glowing plants, and glow in the dark face paint will be all the rage.

 

[CinematicFusion]

I won't defend Phantom Menace, but in regards to movies, at the very least the original trilogy still exists. As stupid as TPM is, it didn't replace the originals or strike them from existence. The crappy thing about WDW though is that with every cut made to the parks, it's a cut that has every possibility of being irrecoverable. And the larger the cutback, the more likely it is that we won't be getting it back. Some of the smaller cutbacks such as maintenance can always be fixed of course, but bigger cuts like shuttered and gutted rides, attractions and pavilions are likely gone forever.

I can always go back and rewatch Empire Strikes Back and ignore the prequels if I want. It's not like the prequels overwrote and replaced it, striking the originals from existence. They're still great movies and still exist for everyone to experience if they want (despite Lucas' best efforts to muck with rereleases with pointless and stupid additions). But attractions at WDW aren't so easy to revisit when the executives shut them down and replace them with either nothing or highly inferior crap. I will almost certainly never be able to ride Horizons, the original Imagination or World of Motion ever again. They're gone and unlikely to ever return (the closest thing would perhaps be a 4.0 of Imagination but it's almost certainly not going to be the same as the original, and most likely not as good either).

The closest thing to revisiting them is to watch old vintage ridethrough videos taken with now ancient camera tech. I don't mean this as any disrespect to the wonderful people like Martin who had the foresight to record these rides when they were open (you're an awesome person and deserve nothing but the highest respect and admiration from us all), but I would imagine most people would agree that watching a video recording of a ride just doesn't come close to comparing to experiencing the real thing. Unless someone discovers affordable time travel that makes it possible to visit EPCOT from the 80's and early 90's, those rides are basically gone forever. It's probably how a lot of old school Doctor Who fans feel about lost episodes (unless old rare recordings are found tucked away in a corner somewhere, we'll need a literal TARDIS to get those back). I don't let crappy new movies nag at me too much because there are always the originals to revisit. But the potentially irreversible damage inflicted upon EPCOT, that definitely bothers me.

I believe you. Horizons, World of Motion and being the child that rode those rides in 1983 are gone forever. It or those times won't ever come back. That's why I live in the now...eye on the future. I wake up sometimes and pretend I have traveled back in time. I get to relive being a father of my two little girls one more time. Because when I wake up, I will be 80 again and my girls will have their families out of state. Helps me to appreciate the moments. Days are long...years are short. I started that when I knew my mom was going to pass away back in 2009. We play pretend all the time as children...it's the last pretend game I play. I love it.

Sorry, not sure why I'm sharing that right now. I guess thinking about Disney and my past vacations there. It's never been about the rides (when I reflect that is..when I was a kid in the moment, it was all about the rides). Now it's about who I was and who I was with in that moment. Not what Disney had.
I enjoyed every moment, and I'm ok with rides not being there anymore. That is all out of my hands. There are certain things in life I can't control. I still have my memories. I can't replace those times by riding the ride again.

When I go this Feb with my family to Disneyland. It's about being with who I'm with and watching their joy.
Everything there, everything at Disney means nothing to me if I go by myself...unless it's the thrill of a new ride. That's a different emotion.

But yeah, it sucks that Disney builds epic rides and they don't stand the test of time. Thanks man, your post got me all choked up remembering my visit to Epcot in 1983.



Shot in Feb 2013...time goes by so very fast...enjoy the moments!

 

[flyerjab]

True, but mark my words, when the sequel comes out, a cute sidekick and exotic eating locale will take center stage in the movie. I think it will be like Pirates: who could possible foresee Davy Jones, the Kracken, and all the crazy, convoluted stuff the rest of the movies created that were barely present in the first movie??? We have no idea where the sequels will go and what possible tie-in's they could do. Plus, with AK open at night, I bet glow in the dark toys, glowing plants, and glow in the dark face paint will be all the rage.

Good post!

I agree that we don't know what the sequels will entail and what they will contain storywise and characterwise that could lead to potential merchandising opportunities.

I just watched this movie again over the weekend (along with multiple viewings in the past on Bluray and in the theater) and the visuals in this movie are sooo visceral and alive that I think that this is something that the imagineers will go wild with. I still feel that Disney does a top notch job with theming and immersiveness, even in their domestic parks (e.g., DAK, Carsland). For me, however, this now falls under the category of an expectation, something that I know that veterans of WDW have been disappointed with over the past decade (and then some). NFL to me is an expansion of an existing area which is a different situation than what is happening with Pandora: The Land of Avatar. It is a true addition to a large, extremely well-themed park. It is not in the middle of an active land as NFL was, so the growth of the Pandora addition - both mechanical and organic - will be harder to ascertain on a day-to-day basis. Instead, our knowledge of this addition will come in dribs and drabs, and the detail and minutiae readily observed in NFL, especially with the staggered soft openings stretched over several years, will not be available. This will ultimately impact our ability to assess whether WDW is building a DA level addition to DAK.

Again, I will emphasize that to me it is an expectation at this point that Pandora will be mind-blowing in both scale and immersiveness. I recently went on a 16 day vacation in The World in July, staying at 6 different deluxe resorts/DVC villas, visiting all 4 themeparks and the 2 waterparks. I spoke to multiple cast members in all types of roles, from lifeguards, QS CMs, ride CMs, to Club Level CMs and FP+ kiosk CMs, and they all said the same thing to me - "ever since DA opened up the street, the resort is noticeably emptier." And I can vouch that it was, with the exception of DHS (and we all now why that is).

That is why to me, I fully expect WDW to blow us away when we first step into Avatar: The World of Pandora. I feel that this will hopefully move WDW back into the discussion of world-class lands when talking about DA and/or Carsland. I also think that this has the advantage of being a land unlike any other at any other themeparks, with the exception of the videos I have seen of TDS in Japan. Just imagine entering DAK at night and entering a land where the plants/trees/foliage all glow and react to the visitors on the various walkways. And the floating mountains could be more impressive than Everest, and I expect the anticipation for the Hallelujah Mountains will be palpable once we see them rising above the treeline. I am wondering if there will be a walking path similar to the Pangani Forest Trail or Maharrajah Jungle Trek, except with AAs. As for the rides, a state-of-the-art simulator ride and a boat ride (yes, I am one of those that expect that both will be delivered) will be excellent (and very needed) rides to help round out the selection of experiences at DAK. I posted a question before about how incredible a current simulator ride could be in comparison to the Gringotts Ride. @Tom responded that this type of simulator (if it is indeed like the one that has been posted on other threads) has the potential to be a true mind-blowing E-Ticket experience. Add to that the boat ride and the advanced AAs that James Cameron has hinted at and I expect a truly amazing addition to DAK.

Package this large addition with the night safari, new and improved Festival of the Lion King expansion, added marketplace QS expansion, additional connecting walkway from Asia to Africa, new Rafiki and Macaw shows, expansion of the Outfitters shop, and the addition of a tamarind exhibit, as well as the refurbed lighting on the Tree of Life and Nighttime show (and not to mention the wildly popular Harambe Nights upcharge event) and DAK will become a revitalized, unique, full day park experience.

I know that changes are not happening at the pace that people would like. And I do now understand what some expectations are for veteran fans of WDW - I have watched some YouTube videos of when EPCOT had its grand opening, as well as early stuff about DHS. I feel that in the case of DAK, at least there are things happening, covering the full spectrum from small to large additions to the park, that have WDW moving in a better direction.

If only they could get Cameron to help WDW revitalize the Living Seas pavillion in EPCOT. He is such a fan of the world under the sea, and the Nemo ride is so meh...

 

[CinematicFusion]

Good post!

If only they could get Cameron to help WDW revitalize the Living Seas pavillion in EPCOT. He is such a fan of the world under the sea, and the Nemo ride is so meh...

Great Great Idea, somebody needs to ask Cameron.

 

[space42]

That is why to me, I fully expect WDW to blow us away when we first step into Avatar: The World of Pandora. I feel that this will hopefully move WDW back into the discussion of world-class lands when talking about DA and/or Carsland. I also think that this has the advantage of being a land unlike any other at any other themeparks, with the exception of the videos I have seen of TDS in Japan. Just imagine entering DAK at night and entering a land where the plants/trees/foliage all glow and react to the visitors on the various walkways. And the floating mountains could be more impressive than Everest, and I expect the anticipation for the Hallelujah Mountains will be palpable once we see them rising above the treeline. I am wondering if there will be a walking path similar to the Pangani Forest Trail or Maharrajah Jungle Trek, except with AAs. As for the rides, a state-of-the-art simulator ride and a boat ride (yes, I am one of those that expect that both will be delivered) will be excellent (and very needed) rides to help round out the selection of experiences at DAK. I posted a question before about how incredible a current simulator ride could be in comparison to the Gringotts Ride. @Tom responded that this type of simulator (if it is indeed like the one that has been posted on other threads) has the potential to be a true mind-blowing E-Ticket experience. Add to that the boat ride and the advanced AAs that James Cameron has hinted at and I expect a truly amazing addition to DAK.

It really does all come down to the headliner attraction though. If it is just an upgraded Soarin' (if you are suspended in front of a screen like BTTF, The Simpsons or Soarin' 1.0) - I'm not sure how that can be a mind-blowing E-Ticket experience. This thing HAS to move through physical sets / props / space right? I mean , the Imagineers have ridden the Harry Potter rides right?

 

[Mike S]

If only they could get Cameron to help WDW revitalize the Living Seas pavillion in EPCOT. He is such a fan of the world under the sea, and the Nemo ride is so meh...

James Cameron would be perfect for The Living Seas. You're already working with him, MAKE IT HAPPEN DISNEY!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Beholder]

Good post!

I agree that we don't know what the sequels will entail and what they will contain storywise and characterwise that could lead to potential merchandising opportunities.

I just watched this movie again over the weekend (along with multiple viewings on Bluray and in the theater) and the visuals in this movie are sooo visceral and alive that I think that this is something that the imagineers will go wild with. I still feel that Disney does a top notch job with theming and immersiveness, even in their domestic parks (e.g., DAK, Carsland). For me, however, this now falls under the category of an expectation, something that I know that veterans of WDW have been disappointed with over the past decade (and then some). NFL to me is an expansion of an existing area which is to me a different situation than what is happening with Pandora: The Land of Avatar. It is a true addition to a large, extremely well-themed park. It is not in the middle of an active land as NFL was, so the growth of the Pandora addition - both mechanical and organic - will be harder to ascertain on a day-to-day basis. Instead, our knowledge of this addition will come in dribs and drabs, and the detail and minutiae readily observed in NFL, especially with the staggered soft openings stretched over several years, will not be available. This will ultimately impact our ability to assess whether WDW is building a DA level addition to DAK.

Again, I will emphasize that to me it is an expectation at this point that Pandora will be mind-blowing in both scale and immersiveness. I recently went on a 16 day vacation in The World in July, staying a 6 different deluxe resorts/DVC villas, visiting all 4 themeparks and the 2 waterparks. I spoke to multiple cast members in all types of roles, from lifeguards, QS CMs, ride CMs, to Club Level CMs and FP+ kiosk CMs, and they all said the same thing to me - "ever since DA opened up the street, the resort is noticeably emptier." And I can vouch that it was, with the exception of DHS (and we all now why that is).

That is why to me, I fully expect WDW to blow us away when we first step into Avatar: The World of Pandora. I feel that this will hopefully move WDW back into the discussion of world-class lands when talking about DA and/or Carsland. I also think that this has the advantage of being a land unlike any other at any other themeparks, with the exception of the videos I have seen of TDS in Japan. Just imagine entering DAK at night and entering a land where the plants/trees/foliage all glow and react to the visitors on the various walkways. And the floating mountains could be more impressive than Everest, and I expect the anticipation for the Hallelujah Mountains will be palpable once we see them rising above the treeline. I am wondering if there will be a walking path similar to the Pangani Forest Trail or Maharrajah Jungle Trek, except with AAs. As for the rides, a state-of-the-art simulator ride and a boat ride (yes, I am one of those that expect that both will be delivered) will be excellent (and very needed) rides to help round out the selection of experiences at DAK. I posted a question before about how incredible a current simulator ride could be in comparison to the Gringotts Ride. @Tom responded that this type of simulator (if it is indeed like the one that has been posted on other threads) has the potential to be a true mind-blowing E-Ticket experience. Add to that the boat ride and the advanced AAs that James Cameron has hinted at and I expect a truly amazing addition to DAK.

Package this large addition with the night safari, new and improved Festival of the Lion King expansion, added marketplace QS expansion, additional connecting walkway from Asia to Africa, new Rafiki and Macaw shows, as well as the refurbed lighting on the Tree of Life and Nighttime show (and not to mention the wildly popular upcharge Harambe Nights upcharge event) and DAK will become such a revitalized full day park experience.

I know that changes are not happening at the pace that people would like. And I do now understand what some expectations are for veteran fans of WDW - I have watched some YouTube videos of when EPCOT had its grand opening, as well as early stuff about DHS. I feel that in the case of DAK, at least there are things happening, covering the full spectrum from small to large additions to the park, that have WDW moving in a better direction.

If only they could get Cameron to help WDW revitalize the Living Seas pavillion in EPCOT. He is such a fan of the world under the sea, and the Nemo ride is so meh...

Excellent post. I pretty much feel the way you do in that I'm expecting a lot from this addition. Am I setting myself up for disappointment? Maybe so, but I'll wait until I've experienced it for myself. WDW and TDO and whoever else is behind this HAS to realize what's riding on this in terms of fan expectations and a somewhat tarnished legacy of creating the greatest theme park attractions in the world. I just have to believe that means something to someone.

 

[flyerjab]

Re: screen-based attraction.

I've said this before, I think this has the potential to be something unlike anything
we've seen before. Cameron is pushing the limits of film in many ways.

-higher than 4K resolution. Imagine if the resolution is much higher than even IMAX
today. Imagine every leaf rendered out crisply.

-ultra-high frame rates. Anyone who saw the Hobbit movies in HFR--48fps, will tell you
that it was pretty stunning looking--almost like looking out a window. Rumors of Cameron
and Doug Trumbull experimenting with as high as 120FPS digital projection intrigue me.

-high illumination projection for 3D.

Combine those three things, and this might actually look and feel like REALITY, not a screen.
I think there is a point we may be approaching where our brains could be fooled into thinking we are
actually at a place, instead of looking at a screen.

That's my hope for the projection part.

These vehicles appear to have full six axes of movement, which means we could be moved around
a lot more than Soarin'. That said, I would prefer this sort of attraction to be less violent in motion,
and more about the elegance of flight and the splendor of the fantasy landscapes. I'll bet that's what
we'll get---in that sense, yes, like Soarin', but with much more of a true flight sense.

As for AA's, the plan for the land means, I suspect, that there will be AA's all over the place--by that
I mean the glowing plants. We just aren't used to thinking of plants as AA's--but they do match
the description, I'd think.

And, yeah, boat ride. Here's hoping that's a POTC style or better stunner . . .

Just reposting this from another thread. This is the response I received from @Tom concerning the simulator ride that really got me interested in the possibilities for this as a true E-Ticket ride anchor for Pandora: The World of Avatar. He does a really good job (better than I could) of explaining the potential for this ride and why it would be much better than Soarin, and a good competitive experience to the Gringotts ride.

 

[Mike S]

Just reposting this from another thread. This is the response I received from @Tom concerning the simulator ride that really got me interested in the possibilities for this as a true E-Ticket ride anchor for Pandora: The World of Avatar. He does a really good job (better than I could) of explaining the potential for this ride and why it would be much better than Soarin, and a good competitive experience to the Gringotts ride.

Sounds great. Now we wait 3 years for it to open to see if it's that good.

 

[flyerjab]

Sounds great. Now we wait 3 years for it to open to see if it's that good.

Well, at least we will all be a little wiser by then.

 

[twebber55]

Sounds great. Now we wait 3 years for it to open to see if it's that good.

2.5 years now

 

[CinematicFusion]

It really does all come down to the headliner attraction though. If it is just an upgraded Soarin' (if you are suspended in front of a screen like BTTF, The Simpsons or Soarin' 1.0) - I'm not sure how that can be a mind-blowing E-Ticket experience. This thing HAS to move through physical sets / props / space right? I mean , the Imagineers have ridden the Harry Potter rides right?

If Avatar is a awesome version of soarin...I'm cool with it as long as it comes with a immersive solid D-ticket boat ride.
If Star Wars E-ticket is a speeder bike thing...not so much. That idea feels so empty on it's own. It would be a great second E-ticket...but not the only E-ticket.
Star Wars without question needs to be a hero's journey style epic E-ticket ride with physical sets/props/space.