Disney not subject to Anaheim’s ‘living wage’ ballot measure, judge rules - OCR/SCNG

Cesar R M

Well-Known Member
What is making this an unfair market? Are workers being forced to work there? Is there no other work available?
I assume you never were in risk of losing your home, being in poverty or having kids with no food..etc..?

Also, if the "market dictates" is controlled by huge conglomerates like WalMart that force salaries low by paying politicians to keep minimum wages down... then it is really "free capitalism" ?
 

Cesar R M

Well-Known Member
Yeah, they want a job given to them instead of doing what it takes to earn a better one.
This is an idiotic myth of "work hader and you might get a raise".
That is in a perfect world that no longer applies in the modern wall street "cost cuts are king" economy.
Your boss will take YOUR "harder work", give himself a bonus and the bonus will then get escalate over and over to an overpaid CEO.
Then the actual boss will get a call from the top CEO that they expect that level of work be "normal" now or "jobs will be cut down". And now you're forced to work HARDER for the SAME salary, your team will be then cut shorter to "save costs and efficiency" (because your harder work means your team of 4 can do the same work as a team of 6 for less) as high executives laugh to the bank.
 

October82

Well-Known Member
True but just because you start with a low paying job that doesn’t require a lot of skill doesn’t mean you can’t move up within the company.

Most low paying jobs actually do require a lot of skills. Those skills are not valued as much as other kinds of skills by the markets, but in a free market skill/effort/etc. =/= pay.

One of the biggest structural problems in the US economy (and in other developed economies) is that for large portions of the workforce, people simply do not move up to higher paying positions either within their company or outside it. There are a lot of a reasons for this, but one of them is that low pay means people can not afford the costs associated with changing employers. That means there's little incentive for companies to give pay raises or promotions.
 

el_super

Well-Known Member
Most low paying jobs actually do require a lot of skills. Those skills are not valued as much as other kinds of skills by the markets, but in a free market skill/effort/etc. =/= pay.

This is a very good point. For an employer like Disneyland, there is a lot of, for lack of a better term, "overhead" knowledge that CMs are expected to have that is wholly specific to working at Disneyland. Things like

park layout
park rules and regulations
attractions locations / types
height requirements
bathroom locations
restaurant types/locations/hours
character locations (sometimes for specific characters)
entertainment showtimes
check in/clock in locations (over multiple scheduled locations)
parking locations and gate access requirements
costuming requirements


And that's all on top of the job specific things like food safety courses, inventory control standards or attraction operation standards. For something like Attractions, CMs would be expected to know all exit routes, and evacuation procedures and all ride operation procedures. And of course there are other skills someone needs that aren't really specific to Disneyland, like security procedures, scheduling procedures and HR/payroll as well. Of course some of these are complicated by the fact that certain depts are spread out across a 200+ acre campus. It's one thing to just work at a mall and show up at the same shop every day, but some of these CMs are working at the equivalent of the world's biggest mall, and having to remember where several shops are.
 

Axoman

Active Member
This actually isn't true. But it sounds true if you only think about things from an employers perspective. The problem in labor markets right now is that wages are below what a free market would pay. Or in other words, we have to think about pay as a negotiation between workers and employers. If there's no competition for labor, companies can set wages at whatever level they want, so they set employee wages much below the market rate. They do not pass these savings on to consumers - why would they? - so the net result is lower wages and higher prices for everyone. The fancy economics word for this is 'decline in purchasing power'. People today, at the low end, make less and pay more. And that's been going on for decades.

This is, incidentally, why studies show that wage increases (at the level living wage proponents argue for) are not inflationary. Instead, the minimum wage corrects the failure of labor markets and leads to an economy that both pays workers more and is more efficient.



This isn't a problem. Automation makes workers more productive and frees them up to do other jobs. What we have now is the worst of both worlds. We have workers being paid low wages to do jobs that they're not able to do as well as they otherwise would be. The reason for that has nothing to do with the employees, and everything to do with the fact that markets incentivize companies to engage in inefficient and non-competitive labor practices.



The actual numbers don't matter*. What matters is purchasing power. That's why the living wage is defined in terms of the costs of goods and services accounting for inflation.

*the rate of increase of the numbers does matter - high inflation scares people, even if purchasing power increases with it. No one is saying fixing these problems will be easy, but we should at least agree that these are problems that need to be fixed. Acting like hard working low wage earners are the problem isn't going to make these problems go away.

I'm sorry, but I'm having a really hard time wrapping my head around what you are saying. I don't see how raising minimum wage across the board will not increase costs that you or I would pay. I'm going to cite an example that I have recently experienced as to why I'm struggling to understand what you are saying. The landscaping company that takes care of the neighborhood I live in recently provided their snow removal costs for the upcoming 2021-2022 winter and also grounds maintenance contract for 2022. The snow removal costs went up by over 36% citing increased labor costs. The grounds maintenance costs for 2022 went up by a more modest 2%, also citing labor costs.

Please explain to me how increased labor cost by paying higher wages doesn't actually translate to a higher price of goods or services, as I really don't understand it.

That might make sense at a macro level, but if you look at it specifically with regard to Disneyland, can you say that Disneyland has kept up with where the bottom of the bar is now?

Amazon warehouses are paying $18 an hour, and while it's no picnic, no amount of guest service is really necessary. So you don't have to worry about being chewed out by a "Magic Key" holder because there isn't any Fastpass offered that day.
Nobody is forced to work at Disneyland. People know what they will be paid when getting hired. If they feel they aren't being paid enough, why can't they go somewhere else that will pay them better?

Cheapskate... Cheesecake... whatever his name is makes millions of dollars a year. 🙃
I agree with you, the ratio between CEOs and the average worker's pay has greatly increased by a ridiculous amount.
 

Axoman

Active Member
Also, if the "market dictates" is controlled by huge conglomerates like WalMart that force salaries low by paying politicians to keep minimum wages down... then it is really "free capitalism" ?

Then be mad at the politicians you've elected that make the laws, not the companies. The companies are doing what the laws allow.
 

el_super

Well-Known Member
Nobody is forced to work at Disneyland. People know what they will be paid when getting hired. If they feel they aren't being paid enough, why can't they go somewhere else that will pay them better?

They can and they do, and then Disneyland is forced to increase wages. They can also band together in a union and demand higher wages from Disneyland (which they have done). They can threaten to go on strike (which they have also done in the past). They can work to pass legislation like Measure L to ensure that companies like Disney can't get free handouts from the city unless they pay their CMs better wages.

All of those are options, and all of those have happened.

This whole line of reasoning, this defense of low wages as an excuse for corporations is still so proplexing to me because it has to ignore so many different factors and tons of evidence, just in order to spew some political agenda, which mostly isn't even aligned with 95%+ of the population. At this point, I wouldn't be surprised if someone just suggested Disney shut the park down and move it elsewhere, just to teach those lowly CMs a lesson on financial responsibility.

Why can't we just be happy the CMs are getting a win here?

In the real world, your wages are worse less due to inflation.

Well to borrow from what others have said in this thread if you don't feel you're making enough money, ask your boss for a raise or find another job.
 

mickEblu

Well-Known Member
Most low paying jobs actually do require a lot of skills. Those skills are not valued as much as other kinds of skills by the markets, but in a free market skill/effort/etc. =/= pay.

One of the biggest structural problems in the US economy (and in other developed economies) is that for large portions of the workforce, people simply do not move up to higher paying positions either within their company or outside it. There are a lot of a reasons for this, but one of them is that low pay means people can not afford the costs associated with changing employers. That means there's little incentive for companies to give pay raises or promotions.

Ya ideally their would be a career path if someone wants it. Not sure how often that happens though.
 

October82

Well-Known Member
I'm sorry, but I'm having a really hard time wrapping my head around what you are saying. I don't see how raising minimum wage across the board will not increase costs that you or I would pay.

Raising minimum wages increases the cost of labor. But the cost of labor is not what sets the price of goods and services.

Right now, companies are paying below market rates for labor. But this doesn't mean that you pay less for the labor that goes into producing the good or service. What it does mean is that companies pay less for labor and do not pass that saving on to you. They're not wrong for doing that. It is good business sense.

So while raising the price of labor can increase the price of goods, it doesn't have to. It only does that if wages are at the "free market" rate. If that's not the case, in practice, companies will be incentivized to pursue other ways to become more efficient. Right now, there is an effective incentive to pay workers below market wages and to not pursue other efficiencies.

I'm going to cite an example that I have recently experienced as to why I'm struggling to understand what you are saying. The landscaping company that takes care of the neighborhood I live in recently provided their snow removal costs for the upcoming 2021-2022 winter and also grounds maintenance contract for 2022. The snow removal costs went up by over 36% citing increased labor costs. The grounds maintenance costs for 2022 went up by a more modest 2%, also citing labor costs.

The difference between what we're taking about is the difference between macroeconomics and microeconomics. Individual companies may be more or less well positioned to handle changes in labor markets, but that shouldn't be our main concern in understanding whether labor markets are efficient and free or not. We need to understand and address the economy as a whole.

More to your specific example, labor costs are not the problem right now. We're in the middle of a labor shortage caused by the Covid-19 pandemic. When people talk about living wage laws, they're trying to correct problems in the economy that have existed for decades. A living wage law has a very different effect from a labor shortage.
 
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RobWDW1971

Well-Known Member
But... They can't. That's why they are offering hiring bonuses, meeting/exceeding union demands, offering more benefits and still letting shifts in the park go unfilled.

This isn't some hypothetical. This is literally what is happening in the parks today.
Then I literally do not understand your (and the people liking your posts) concern. That is the free market working perfectly - they will pay the lowest amount they feel is needed to hire the jobs that meets their return for the output of those jobs.

If they can't hire at $17 they will pay more. If they need to offer temporary hiring bonuses to offset people getting extended unemployment benefits, they will.

That is the free market labor system working as intended. So I'm not sure what the issue is.
 

RobWDW1971

Well-Known Member
This is an idiotic myth of "work hader and you might get a raise".
I'm confused. So you are saying 100% of American workers are paid the legal minimum for their jobs? If not, well, they must be being paid more for working harder of having better skills - you can't have it both ways.

Oh, and I have lived from terrible paycheck to paycheck, had credit card debt I could barely cover, and had to live with a bunch of terrible roommates and work multiple jobs to get by. Your point is?

And then I learned more skills, added more value, made good life choices, and worked my up to better positions so I didn't have to. My situation was on me to improve and not blame others and expect something from an employer or my fellow taxpayer that I wasn't able to earn in the marketplace.

Again, if you are in a job where your employer is paying you the absolute minimum only because he has to under the law or some union agreement, you may want to think about the value you're offering them.
 

el_super

Well-Known Member
That is the free market labor system working as intended. So I'm not sure what the issue is.

At this point there really isn't. The CMs fought for higher wages and they are getting them. Problem solved (for now).

But some in this thread seemingly split their arguments into two points that were sometimes at odds with each other:
  1. The market will dictate wages.
  2. Disneyland CMs somehow/for some reason, just deserve to be paid less regardless.
There really is no argument to the former, but it's the latter where there is no room for agreement.

Higher wages would have all sorts of positive impact on the park. Higher retention, better recruitment, superior guest service, but somehow people are against improving guest service when it directly comes in conflict with their political views.

It is the undercurrent of disdain for CMs at Disneyland that I am mostly taking issue with now.
 

networkpro

Well-Known Member
In the Parks
Yes
In the real world, your wages are worse less due to inflation.


And theres a causality model behind that. You increase the money supply by just printing more and giving it to people just for existing and voting. Not by adding any value into the economy, just by fiat.
 

RobWDW1971

Well-Known Member
True but just because you start with a low paying job that doesn’t require a lot of skill doesn’t mean you can’t move up within the company.

Of course and most of the people in this country have done just that. But the point is if you take that job that doesn't require skills and don't move on to one that does, then I fail to understand why one is complaining about their wages.

That story of the Disneyland Hotel cast member @TP2000 posted is Exhibit A-Z on this topic.

She hired in to do basically a minimum wage job. She continues to do basically a minimum wage job. And so what is the beef with still being paid (above minimum wage not including any benefits, BTW) similarly for that job whether it is 1, 5, 10, or 40 years later?

And if you are going to argue her decades of experience has made her the world's BEST breakfast set up person, then there are dozens of high end hotels in OC that would gladly pay her more for that unique, valuable skill.

Has she applied to these luxury hotels? Did they determine that her unique skill set and experience are worth more than she is making today? If not, why not?

She may be literally the worst person for the "living wage" argument you could imagine and the fact that she is apparently the Poster Child, tells you all you need to know about the logic behind it.
 

RobWDW1971

Well-Known Member
At this point there really isn't. The CMs fought for higher wages and they are getting them. Problem solved (for now).
Woo hoo! The free market, capitalist system is working as it should!

We shall never read in these forums about the Cast being underpaid again! Problem solved!

And since they, through their union votes, are going to apparently agree to this new wage structure, we can also put aside any "living wage" arguments because they all just approved their new pay on their own free will!

I love when it all works out. USA! USA!
 

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