Disney not subject to Anaheim’s ‘living wage’ ballot measure, judge rules - OCR/SCNG

[Sailor310]

I really don't think we should be forcing young enlisted folks to pick between serving their country and starting a family. This attitude about what 'wages are intended' to support seems really problematic to me. In the rest of the economy, wages are set by the market and employees ability to leave and negotiate wages.

Enlisted folks don't have those options. They should be paid at least the living wage as a matter of principle. From what you've shared, that seems to largely be the case, so maybe what is needed are family allowances and child credits rather than 'wage increases'.

I'm a retired officer, but that's a whole other deal. I have read that in some places, enlisted folks make so little as to eligible for food stamps. Yes, I think they should make more for the risks they can incur, but there is combat or hazard pay to offset that somewhat.

I googled "enlisted pay" and an E-1 (lowest enlisted rank-private/airman basic) with greater than 4 months' service makes 1,785 in basic pay.

Then I googled BAH Basic Allowance for Housing, what you get if the base can't provide housing on base. If you have dependents, you get more in the military. Bigger quarters on base or more BAH off base. Very foreign (and against the law) to what we're talking about in this thread.
�

2021 Basic Allowance For Housing In LOS ANGELES, CA​
With Dependents$36,072.00 per year $3,006.00 per month	Without Dependents$27,072.00 per year $2,256.00 per month

Many military wives end up working. They try to make places for them at the BX, etc.. There is generally a large childcare facility on base. This helps some of them survive until they make a more living wage after a few promotions. Of course, free medical care makes up some value to somewhat offset the low pay.

Heppenheimer made great points that I didn't see til was half done.

 

[TP2000]

So, what do WE do, as people who enjoy going to the parks? Why aren't people creating Change dot org petitions for the dignity of living people? Am I missing something here?

Because the customers at the parks know what the local wage rates are in their own communities for unskilled, entry-level work. Everytime I go to Target I see the sign at the front door that says "NOW HIRING! $15 PER HOUR!"

And then when I hear that the brand new CM sweeping up napkins in Pixar Pier is making $17 per hour, I think "Disneyland pays more than Target. Being a CM would be a fun job for a college kid!"

Everyone wandering around Disneyland today knows what their local Target or McDonald's is paying the kids to work there. The tourists from outside of SoCal are used to seeing signs at their Target in Boise or Salt Lake or Portland that says "NOW HIRING! $12 PER HOUR!" (instead of $15 in SoCal) and when they hear that CM's make five bucks more per hour than that they think "Woah, I didn't know Disneyland paid so high."

In short, everyone knows most CM's in the park are in unskilled, entry-level jobs that have direct correlation to their hometown McDonald's, Target, Denny's, Starbucks, etc. that all pay a buck or two over state minimum wage.

 

[Axoman]

Disney is just a company doing what companies do. I really think if you want to make a difference, you can do that by voting for politicians that will raise the minimum wage or pass fair wage laws. The living wage ballot measure - tying a living wage to tax subsidies - was ill conceived, but blanket minimum wage increases aren't.

Just paying people more money isn't the answer. That additional money results in higher costs of goods and services for everyone, so you aren't really getting more buying power. That, or employers will do all they can to cut out those minimum wage jobs and replace them with something they don't have to pay. Whether that be through automation or some other means.

Let's just make minimum wage $50/hr. Enjoy your $25 happy meal and $500/day Disneyland ticket.

 

[TP2000]

I really think if you want to make a difference, you can do that by voting for politicians that will raise the minimum wage or pass fair wage laws. The living wage ballot measure - tying a living wage to tax subsidies - was ill conceived, but blanket minimum wage increases aren't.

As a reminder, California has had one-party rule for years now. For several years now Sacramento has had one-party rule of the Governor, and also a veto-proof "supermajority" in both houses of the state legislature.

There is nothing stopping Sacramento from raising the state minimum wage to $20, or $23, or $45. There is no meaningful or statistical opposition to stop them.

Democrats Look To Expand Their Supermajority In California’s Statehouse

Democrats have controlled California’s legislature for decades, but the Nov. 3 election offers a chance for the party to cement its supermajority and pick up more legislative seats.

www.capradio.org

 

[October82]

Just paying people more money isn't the answer. That additional money results in higher costs of goods and services for everyone, so you aren't really getting more buying power.

This actually isn't true. But it sounds true if you only think about things from an employers perspective. The problem in labor markets right now is that wages are below what a free market would pay. Or in other words, we have to think about pay as a negotiation between workers and employers. If there's no competition for labor, companies can set wages at whatever level they want, so they set employee wages much below the market rate. They do not pass these savings on to consumers - why would they? - so the net result is lower wages and higher prices for everyone. The fancy economics word for this is 'decline in purchasing power'. People today, at the low end, make less and pay more. And that's been going on for decades.

This is, incidentally, why studies show that wage increases (at the level living wage proponents argue for) are not inflationary. Instead, the minimum wage corrects the failure of labor markets and leads to an economy that both pays workers more and is more efficient.

That, or employers will do all they can to cut out those minimum wage jobs and replace them with something they don't have to pay. Whether that be through automation or some other means.

This isn't a problem. Automation makes workers more productive and frees them up to do other jobs. What we have now is the worst of both worlds. We have workers being paid low wages to do jobs that they're not able to do as well as they otherwise would be. The reason for that has nothing to do with the employees, and everything to do with the fact that markets incentivize companies to engage in inefficient and non-competitive labor practices.

Let's just make minimum wage $50/hr. Enjoy your $25 happy meal and $500/day Disneyland ticket.

The actual numbers don't matter*. What matters is purchasing power. That's why the living wage is defined in terms of the costs of goods and services accounting for inflation.

*the rate of increase of the numbers does matter - high inflation scares people, even if purchasing power increases with it. No one is saying fixing these problems will be easy, but we should at least agree that these are problems that need to be fixed. Acting like hard working low wage earners are the problem isn't going to make these problems go away.

 

[el_super]

Just paying people more money isn't the answer. That additional money results in higher costs of goods and services for everyone, so you aren't really getting more buying power.

That might make sense at a macro level, but if you look at it specifically with regard to Disneyland, can you say that Disneyland has kept up with where the bottom of the bar is now?

Amazon warehouses are paying $18 an hour, and while it's no picnic, no amount of guest service is really necessary. So you don't have to worry about being chewed out by a "Magic Key" holder because there isn't any Fastpass offered that day.

 

[TP2000]

Amazon warehouses are paying $18 an hour, and while it's no picnic, no amount of guest service is really necessary. So you don't have to worry about being chewed out by a "Magic Key" holder because there isn't any Fastpass offered that day.

Then the 18 year old kid from Anaheim Hills should go get a job at the Amazon warehouse and make an extra dollar an hour. No "magic!" required. Amazon is hiring. Because EVERYONE is hiring.

Amazon Jobs Hiring Now - Hourly & Shift Jobs @ Amazon

Amazon is hiring now for warehouse jobs, delivery drivers, fulfillment center workers, store associates and many more hourly positions. Apply today!

hiring.amazon.com

None of this changes the fact that the vast majority of the uniformed, front-line CM's working at Disneyland are doing jobs that require no formal training, no advanced skills, and no education beyond a rather meaningless high school diploma (have you seen the test scores lately?).

You can claim the jobs are highly technical and require advanced degrees to perform, but that doesn't make it truth. You can claim that selling churros is worth $25 an hour or $45 an hour, but that doesn't make it the truth.

Heck, why stop at $25 per hour to sell churros? Why not just call the churro vendors Senior Nutrition Directors and demand they be paid $200,000 per year with a complimentary Honda Accord company car thrown in?

Although, that won't change the fact they are unskilled jobs any 18 year old from Anaheim can do.

 

[RobWDW1971]

Back to Disneyland not wanting to pay their employees decently: This has been an issue for ages, this isn't a secret. So, what do WE do, as people who enjoy going to the parks? Why aren't people creating Change dot org petitions for the dignity of living people? Am I missing something here? I know for a while, cast members whom I knew said that not going to the parks actually didn't help, because the scheduling people would use it to punish cast members instead. IDK I am really at a loss, honestly.

And here's the cruel irony - when Disney fans go to the parks and then take surveys saying how wonderful the Cast was you are actually only reinforcing management's position.

They read that as "Wow, this is great! Parks are full and the guests love our cast! No need to change anything!"

 

[RobWDW1971]

Then the 18 year old kid from Anaheim Hills should go get a job at the Amazon warehouse and make an extra dollar an hour. No "magic!" required. Amazon is hiring. Because EVERYONE is hiring.

Exactly. How can Disneyland pay $17/hour and attract thousands into dead end jobs? Because they can.

Ask any Cal State Fullerton student, "Would you rather work in an Amazon warehouse on a treadmill that never stops for $20 or at Disneyland where you can pick up on cute girls standing out in front of Star Tours for $17?".

People greatly underestimate the "stickiness" of Disney theme parks. I had a friend who work there for 20+ years and used to complain about his wages and when you told him he could make more money at a hotel across the street they looked at you like you were out of your mind.

Again, they chose the job knowing that it required no skills and GUARANTEES low pay forever regardless of their skills and potential. That's on them.

 

[flynnibus]

This is, incidentally, why studies show that wage increases (at the level living wage proponents argue for) are not inflationary. Instead, the minimum wage corrects the failure of labor markets and leads to an economy that both pays workers more and is more efficient.

again... please cite where this utopia is...

 

[SuddenStorm]

Because the customers at the parks know what the local wage rates are in their own communities for unskilled, entry-level work. Everytime I go to Target I see the sign at the front door that says "NOW HIRING! $15 PER HOUR!"

And then when I hear that the brand new CM sweeping up napkins in Pixar Pier is making $17 per hour, I think "Disneyland pays more than Target. Being a CM would be a fun job for a college kid!"

Everyone wandering around Disneyland today knows what their local Target or McDonald's is paying the kids to work there. The tourists from outside of SoCal are used to seeing signs at their Target in Boise or Salt Lake or Portland that says "NOW HIRING! $12 PER HOUR!" (instead of $15 in SoCal) and when they hear that CM's make five bucks more per hour than that they think "Woah, I didn't know Disneyland paid so high."

In short, everyone knows most CM's in the park are in unskilled, entry-level jobs that have direct correlation to their hometown McDonald's, Target, Denny's, Starbucks, etc. that all pay a buck or two over state minimum wage.

It's also worth stressing that there are people who intentionally move to OC to work at Disneyland. Many without full time positions or salary jobs lined up.

I have two friends who moved from Arizona and New Jersey to work part time attractions in the last six months. One of whom has a college degree.

Attractions is notoriously difficult to move up quickly in.

But it's Disneyland and it's a fun place to work so some people are willing to ignore the financial realities and career ramifications of working there.

 

[Vegas Disney Fan]

It's also worth stressing that there are people who intentionally move to OC to work at Disneyland. Many without full time positions or salary jobs lined up.

I have two friends who moved from Arizona and New Jersey to work part time attractions in the last six months. One of whom has a college degree.

Attractions is notoriously difficult to move up quickly in.

But it's Disneyland and it's a fun place to work so some people are willing to ignore the financial realities and career ramifications of working there.

My early-retirement plan is move to Orlando and work at WDW, I’d love to drive the Sasagoula boats but would settle for a resort job. I’ve been saving for a couple decades so I can to buy a house with cash (plus the sale of my current home) and survive on a small Disney income. The recent minimum wage bump to $15 an hour likely moved up my plans by a decade.

 

[el_super]

Exactly. How can Disneyland pay $17/hour and attract thousands into dead end jobs? Because they can.

But... They can't. That's why they are offering hiring bonuses, meeting/exceeding union demands, offering more benefits and still letting shifts in the park go unfilled.

This isn't some hypothetical. This is literally what is happening in the parks today.

 

[TP2000]

>>It’s worth noting that a few months before the CRLU lawsuit was filed, Disneyland cast member and UNITE-HERE Local 11 executive board member Glyndanna Shevlin spoke at the March 19, 2019 Anaheim City Council meeting about how Measure L had improved her life as a Disney cast member. Shevlin, who was the public face of the Measure L campaign, told the councilmembers:

“Measure L was a very big thing for me. It made me have a living wage and I now have a home. The last three years prior – I was homeless. But now I have a good living wage.”

Of course, Shevlin is being disingenuous, since Measure L does not apply to the Disneyland Resort (as Judge Claster subsequently ruled).

The story behind Ms. Shevlin is interesting. She has long been the public face of the "Living Wage!" argument, at one time even sitting on stage next to Senator Bernie Sanders to complain about Disneyland.

Ms. Shevlin started working at Disneyland in 1988 at age 20 as a hostess in the E Ticket concierge lounge on top of the Disneyland Hotel. Decades later, she still does the same job. She sets out cereal and muffins and juice and coffee urns for breakfast, then sets out lox n' bagel bites and Cokes for the afternoon.

This is a job Ms. Shevlin has done since 1988. She currently makes about $17 per hour to do that, but at the time of this video in 2018 she made $15.70. To do the same menial, entry-level job she's done since 1988 that any 18 year old off the street could also do after three days of training.

Unfortunately, Ms. Shevlin's own words and own facts she presents to the camera don't seem to help her argument here. If at age 60 your job can be filled instantly by an 18 year old off the street after three days of training, you've got a problem. Ms. Shevlin seems unwilling to admit that, however.

 

[TP2000]

But... They can't. That's why they are offering hiring bonuses, meeting/exceeding union demands, offering more benefits and still letting shifts in the park go unfilled.

This isn't some hypothetical. This is literally what is happening in the parks today.

If they can't fill the shifts at $17 per hour, they'll offer $18 an hour and trim some staffing on the edges.

If they can't fill the shifts at $18 an hour with trimmed workloads, they'll ofter $19 per hour and buy some robot burger-flippers to trim more workload.

If that doesn't work, they'll offer $20 per hour to fill the shifts and buy more robots at the hotels or in the warehouse.

Rinse and repeat until they can fill the shifts. Say hi to the robots on your way in to your next shift.

 

[Vegas Disney Fan]

If they can't fill the shifts at $17 per hour, they'll offer $18 an hour and trim some staffing on the edges.

If they can't fill the shifts at $18 an hour with trimmed workloads, they'll ofter $19 per hour and buy some robot burger-flippers to trim more workload.

If that doesn't work, they'll offer $20 per hour to fill the shifts and buy more robots at the hotels or in the warehouse.

Rinse and repeat until they can fill the shifts. Say hi to the robots on your way in to your next shift.

The free market works!

 

[Dear Prudence]

Just paying people more money isn't the answer. That additional money results in higher costs of goods and services for everyone, so you aren't really getting more buying power. That, or employers will do all they can to cut out those minimum wage jobs and replace them with something they don't have to pay. Whether that be through automation or some other means.

Let's just make minimum wage $50/hr. Enjoy your $25 happy meal and $500/day Disneyland ticket.

Cheapskate... Cheesecake... whatever his name is makes millions of dollars a year.

 

[el_super]

Twitter thread from everyone's favorite CM regarding the union agreement.

I guess worth noting that Lincoln will be closed for the entirety of the day on 11/17.

 

[mickEblu]

Exactly. How can Disneyland pay $17/hour and attract thousands into dead end jobs? Because they can.

Ask any Cal State Fullerton student, "Would you rather work in an Amazon warehouse on a treadmill that never stops for $20 or at Disneyland where you can pick up on cute girls standing out in front of Star Tours for $17?".

People greatly underestimate the "stickiness" of Disney theme parks. I had a friend who work there for 20+ years and used to complain about his wages and when you told him he could make more money at a hotel across the street they looked at you like you were out of your mind.

Again, they chose the job knowing that it required no skills and GUARANTEES low pay forever regardless of their skills and potential. That's on them.

True but just because you start with a low paying job that doesn’t require a lot of skill doesn’t mean you can’t move up within the company.

 

[Cesar R M]

>>Last week, Orange County Superior Court Judge William Claster ruled that a 2018 Anaheim ballot measure requiring businesses that receive a city tax subsidy does not apply to the Disneyland Resort, pointing to how Measure L – which was written and placed on the ballot by the Coalition of Resort Labor Unions (CRLU) – defined a tax subsidy.

In his ruling, Judge Claster stated it was a simple question of whether the 1996 Resort bonds – which financed the construction of the Mikey & Friends parking structure – constituted a “City subsidy” as defined in the union-written Measure L.

Given the plain language of Measure L, Claster ruled the only way he could – against the CRLU.

The Resort unions coalition denounced Judge Claster’s adherence to the language they authored as “hyper-technical” and vowed to appeal the ruling.<<

>>It’s worth noting that a few months before the CRLU lawsuit was filed, Disneyland cast member and UNITE-HERE Local 11 executive board member Glyndanna Shevlin spoke at the March 19, 2019 Anaheim City Council meeting about how Measure L had improved her life as a Disney cast member. Shevlin, who was the public face of the Measure L campaign, told the councilmembers:



Of course, Shevlin is being disingenuous, since Measure L does not apply to the Disneyland Resort (as Judge Claster subsequently ruled).

The point is the Resort unions are making contradictory claims. On one hand, you have UNITE-HERE Local 11 leaders, members and their attorney claiming Disneyland must adhere to Measure L but is failing to do so.

On the other hand, you had a Local 11 leader, spokesperson for Measure L and Disneyland cast member claiming that she got an increase to a “living wage” and has a home because of Measure L.

So which is it? UNITE-HERE and the CRLU can’t have it both ways. They can’t have a Measure L spokesperson and Disneyland employee says Measure L raised her pay, and then turn around and sue saying Disneyland isn’t raising cast members by according to Measure L.

That kind of doublethink may fly with Resort union apologists, but clearly flopped in the courtroom of Judge Claster.<<

​

Judge Rejects Resort Union Doubletalk, Rules Measure L Wage Spike Doesn't Apply To Disney - Anaheim Independent

Last week, Orange County Superior Court Judge William Claster ruled that a 2018 Anaheim ballot measure requiring businesses that receive a city tax subsidy does not apply to the Disneyland Resort, pointing to how Measure L – which was written and placed on the ballot by the Coalition of Resort...

www.anaheimindependent.com

Is there the possibility that Disney is only playing field with only ONE union that they found be more malleable and wants to distance itself from the other?

Then the 18 year old kid from Anaheim Hills should go get a job at the Amazon warehouse and make an extra dollar an hour. No "magic!" required. Amazon is hiring. Because EVERYONE is hiring.

Amazon Jobs Hiring Now - Hourly & Shift Jobs @ Amazon

Amazon is hiring now for warehouse jobs, delivery drivers, fulfillment center workers, store associates and many more hourly positions. Apply today!

hiring.amazon.com

None of this changes the fact that the vast majority of the uniformed, front-line CM's working at Disneyland are doing jobs that require no formal training, no advanced skills, and no education beyond a rather meaningless high school diploma (have you seen the test scores lately?).

You can claim the jobs are highly technical and require advanced degrees to perform, but that doesn't make it truth. You can claim that selling churros is worth $25 an hour or $45 an hour, but that doesn't make it the truth.

Heck, why stop at $25 per hour to sell churros? Why not just call the churro vendors Senior Nutrition Directors and demand they be paid $200,000 per year with a complimentary Honda Accord company car thrown in?

Although, that won't change the fact they are unskilled jobs any 18 year old from Anaheim can do.

Is there any company that has a higher training in customer care than Disney?
Do your "Average churro vendor" gets classes on how to point, how to deal with customers.. etc..?
Does that same "Average churro vendor" gets the same pressure and expectations as a CM on a theme park charging 100+ USD a pop + addons ?