Disney not subject to Anaheim’s ‘living wage’ ballot measure, judge rules - OCR/SCNG

October82

Well-Known Member
What is making this an unfair market? Are workers being forced to work there? Is there no other work available?

Yes, actually. We don't have a fair labor market for three basic reasons. 1) Labor market consolidation (too few employers) 2) the decline in collective bargaining power, and 3) factors related to globalization. The net effect is that workers, especially in service industry jobs, are forced to take jobs below what a fair market would pay them because - yes - no other work is available to them.
 

October82

Well-Known Member
I say this as a veteran... lower enlisted can actually make a decent salary for young people, considering they have no medical, housing, uniform or utility expenses, and they can eat for free at the dining facilities. It's not a salary that would support a young family but it isn't intended as such either. For a single, young soldier living in base housing, it provides an appropriate starting salary.

This is a problem.

The tax exemptions and bonuses we got paid during deployments ended up being quite lucrative. I started building my household wealth on a deployment savings plan that I then transferred into a mutual fund after it matured. 20 years later, that account is worth over $150K.

You can do quite well on a military salary, but you can't blow your paycheck on stupid stuff, like overpriced no-money-down trucks, entertainment systems, or pimped-out auto detailing.

Thank you for sharing your experiences. I'm glad to hear that you were successful. I'm curious - how has the situation changed in the last 20 years? In much of the rest of the economy, the last 20 years have been especially hard on entry-level workers, is that true of folks in the military as well? Has pay increased with inflation or are newly enlisted folks paid less in real terms than they were when you served?
 

flynnibus

Premium Member
Yes, actually. We don't have a fair labor market for three basic reasons. 1) Labor market consolidation (too few employers) 2) the decline in collective bargaining power, and 3) factors related to globalization. The net effect is that workers, especially in service industry jobs, are forced to take jobs below what a fair market would pay them because - yes - no other work is available to them.

Meanwhile... every shop and service establishment has 'hiring signs' up... the 'no other work is available' argument is non-sense. These people may feel trapped in the work they can pursue, but that's not a market constraint.
 

denyuntilcaught

Well-Known Member
Meanwhile... every shop and service establishment has 'hiring signs' up... the 'no other work is available' argument is non-sense. These people may feel trapped in the work they can pursue, but that's not a market constraint.

It's been discussed ad nauseam that the "no other work available" argument also entails the idea that people are unwilling to work for unjustifiably low wages. I've always agreed with the notion that the labor shortage isn't a workforce issue, this is a wage issue.

People are just not happy being taken advantage of by corporations anymore. We're not our parents.
 

RobWDW1971

Well-Known Member
It's been discussed ad nauseam that the "no other work available" argument also entails the idea that people are unwilling to work for unjustifiably low wages. I've always agreed with the notion that the labor shortage isn't a workforce issue, this is a wage issue.

People are just not happy being taken advantage of by corporations anymore. We're not our parents.
That's true because your parents didn't have endless unemployment benefits that didn't require looking for work, COVID checks, and child tax credit checks arriving every month to allow them to not work and live off their fellow taxpayers so they had to take jobs that they didn't like or that "fulfilled" them. You are correct about that.
 

el_super

Well-Known Member
That's true because your parents didn't have endless unemployment benefits that didn't require looking for work, COVID checks, and child tax credit checks arriving every month to allow them to not work and live off their fellow taxpayers so they had to take jobs that they didn't like or that "fulfilled" them. You are correct about that.

LOL... so you think that if social programs were reduced, corporations would gladly pick up the slack by offering higher wages? Out of the kindness of their hearts? Probably not.

I still can't get over how insistent people are, that low wage workers stay at ridiculously low wages. It's not a competition. Their success doesn't mean you lose.
 

October82

Well-Known Member
Meanwhile... every shop and service establishment has 'hiring signs' up... the 'no other work is available' argument is non-sense. These people may feel trapped in the work they can pursue, but that's not a market constraint.

These kinds of anecdotal arguments do a lot of harm to trying to understand what is actually happening in the economy. The amount of turnover in labor markets today is historically high, and this is driven by a unique and unprecedented shock to labor markets. Wages remain below free market levels.

There are, in reality, far fewer employers in the economy today and this deprives workers of bargaining power. "Mom and pop" shops are fewer in number too, but the declining number of large firms (that employ more people than all mom and pop shops combined), is really driving it. The large firms basically set the prevailing wage throughout the economy. To be clear - this isn't something that I'm making up, this is the consensus view of economists.

The other factors matter too. Globalization has effects on both labor supply and demand. Union bargaining power has also dramatically declined, both because of changes in how unions are required to operate, and in terms of the number of unions and the total part of the work force in unionized employers.
 
Last edited:

Heppenheimer

Well-Known Member
This is a problem.



Thank you for sharing your experiences. I'm glad to hear that you were successful. I'm curious - how has the situation changed in the last 20 years? In much of the rest of the economy, the last 20 years have been especially hard on entry-level workers, is that true of folks in the military as well? Has pay increased with inflation or are newly enlisted folks paid less in real terms than they were when you served?
Military base-pay is indexed to inflation. It goes up every year. If you live off post, your housing and sustenance allowances (which are tax-free) are also based on the local cost of living. I was always able to find decent housing well within my allowance. I even had a pretty nice house 4 bedroom house with a fenced-in backyard when I was stationed in Germany. It was heaven. God, I wish I could move back there...

I repeat, though, that lower enlisted military salaries are not intended to support a young family. If a soldier chooses to get married before they reach a pay grade that actually allows them to support a family, that is their own decision. Anyone can easily download the current DFAS pay chart, which is publicly available information, so their salary should not come as a surprise.
 

October82

Well-Known Member
I repeat, though, that lower enlisted military salaries are not intended to support a young family. If a soldier chooses to get married before they reach a pay grade that actually allows them to support a family, that is their own decision. Anyone can easily download the current DFAS pay chart, which is publicly available information, so their salary should not come as a surprise.

I really don't think we should be forcing young enlisted folks to pick between serving their country and starting a family. This attitude about what 'wages are intended' to support seems really problematic to me. In the rest of the economy, wages are set by the market and employees ability to leave and negotiate wages.

Enlisted folks don't have those options. They should be paid at least the living wage as a matter of principle. From what you've shared, that seems to largely be the case, so maybe what is needed are family allowances and child credits rather than 'wage increases'.
 

flynnibus

Premium Member
These kinds of anecdotal arguments due a lot of harm to trying to understand what is actually happening in the economy. The amount of turnover in labor markets today is historically high, and this is driven by a unique and unprecedented shock to labor markets. Wages remain below free market levels.

'free market levels' -- measured by what? You have one of the most open labor markets around and yet it keeps being labeled as 'unfair'. What are we comparing to as real 'free market'?

There are, in reality, far fewer employers in the economy today and this deprives workers of bargaining power. "Mom and pop" shops are fewer in number too, but the declining number of large firms (that employ more people than all mom and pop shops combined), is really driving it.

Don't use some market segments like retail to generalize the entire economy. You can't have it both ways... if there really is a limit of employers, workers are the ones that control their fate. Workers are the ones that will define their mobility and their tolerance for wages - not employers.

Truth is wages have increased nearly 50% in hourly low-skill labor in this past year... more so than any other segment, with more opportunities than ever. Yet people say 'there is no work available' - It's non-sense. People are trying to get the work THEY WANT and then whine it's not available to them. What are they doing about it?

My job didn't pay enough.. so I worked two jobs. Housing was too expensive, so I shared a room with 3 other people. The job I wanted wasn't local and required an up to 2hr commute.. so I commuted in one of the worst traffic spots in the country. Eventually I got tired of that, so I moved. But again too expensive so I moved really far out to where I could afford it. I wanted more things then my pay provided - so I did the sacrifices to lead the pack and succeed in my field. When it comes to review time I tell my boss how I brought success to their business and drove things like revenue or customer success... I don't tell them "well I got another kid, can I have a raise?"

Yet people complain "disney sets the wages in this town..." - then why are you still there? Leave. "I can't afford it" - But you have an iphone in your pocket and a xbox at home?

I emphasize with people struggling to get by - but show me what you are doing about it.

My wife's company right now will pay nearly $20/hr just to follow a script to teach kids how to swim by standing in a 3ft pool... no experience needed. They can't get people to apply.. and those that do.. don't even show up consistently. They can't even keep people hired for 60 days because people JUST DON'T SHOW UP. No.. I've seen enough, don't cry to me about 'unfair markets' or 'no work available'. It's plentiful - people aren't pulling their own weight.
 

flynnibus

Premium Member
I really don't think we should be forcing young enlisted folks to pick between serving their country and starting a family. This attitude about what 'wages are intended' to support seems really problematic to me. In the rest of the economy, wages are set by the market and employees ability to leave and negotiate wages.

Enlisted folks don't have those options. They should be paid at least the living wage as a matter of principle. From what you've shared, that seems to largely be the case, so maybe what is needed are family allowances and child credits rather than 'wage increases'.

Enlistment isn't a job... It's a commitment.
 

denyuntilcaught

Well-Known Member
Yeah, they want a job given to them instead of doing what it takes to earn a better one.
Oh give me a break and please stop defending corporate exploitation. The whole "struggle makes success" myth is exactly that - a myth that encourages people to work for cheap in order for companies to maximize profit. College applications are at an all-time high. Interest in vocational schools has fallen sharply, but many attribute that to the for-profit institutions that made headlines over the past few years. People are working to pursue a more enriching trade by educating themselves and working "harder," but what do you expect them to do in the meantime? This is clearly a generational difference, but at the same time, when it comes to morals and ethics I certainly won't take the side of the corporations.
 

Heppenheimer

Well-Known Member
I really don't think we should be forcing young enlisted folks to pick between serving their country and starting a family. This attitude about what 'wages are intended' to support seems really problematic to me. In the rest of the economy, wages are set by the market and employees ability to leave and negotiate wages.

Enlisted folks don't have those options. They should be paid at least the living wage as a matter of principle. From what you've shared, that seems to largely be the case, so maybe what is needed are family allowances and child credits rather than 'wage increases'.
When you enlist, you are not taking on a normal job. You're signing up for a career that may take you away from your home for months to even a year or more at a time. When you're deployed, you're there to do a job. Your fellow soldiers depend on you to be all-in and not distracted by problems at home. I've seen more than a few young marriages crumble under these circumstances and it caused nothing but stress and trouble both for the deployed soldier and their unit. A lot of these kids get married when they're too young and immature to handle it even when a deployment isn't involved, now add one spouse being away for extended training missions and then deployments, and you have a recipe perfect for divorce and all the acrimony that usually involves.

I'm not saying that no lower enlisted should ever get married, but in my experience, far many more get married than should for that stage of their life. There's nothing wrong with delaying marriage until there's a little more maturity and financial stability, which usually means, proving themselves with a promotion to a higher pay grade.
 

flynnibus

Premium Member
Oh give me a break and please stop defending corporate exploitation. The whole "struggle makes success" myth is exactly that - a myth that encourages people to work for cheap in order for companies to maximize profit.

Yet, when we hear the stories of dispair it's "I've worked the same low paying job for 10 years..." -- That's not corporate exploitation, that is lack of action.

Sacrifice isn't a guarantee of success - but you can't expect success without doing your part. And when I can tell you countless stories of people ruining their own job as we try to staff with this exact demographic people are describing... I will go with what I know with first hand knowledge. Not someone championing workers they don't even know.


College applications are at an all-time high. Interest in vocational schools has fallen sharply, but many attribute that to the for-profit institutions that made headlines over the past few years. People are working to pursue a more enriching trade by educating themselves and working "harder," but what do you expect them to do in the meantime?
1) SHOW UP
2) DO YOUR JOB
3) LOOK TO DO MORE
4) Take initiative to identify your next objective
5) Sacrifice to make the next step possible

Seriously.. like half the people can't even do STEP 1! That's got nothing to do with corporate exploitation, globalization or whatever other boogiemen people want to throw out there.
 

Dear Prudence

Well-Known Member
Back to Disneyland not wanting to pay their employees decently: This has been an issue for ages, this isn't a secret. So, what do WE do, as people who enjoy going to the parks? Why aren't people creating Change dot org petitions for the dignity of living people? Am I missing something here? I know for a while, cast members whom I knew said that not going to the parks actually didn't help, because the scheduling people would use it to punish cast members instead. IDK I am really at a loss, honestly.
 

October82

Well-Known Member
'free market levels' -- measured by what? You have one of the most open labor markets around and yet it keeps being labeled as 'unfair'. What are we comparing to as real 'free market'?

What makes this conversation difficult right now is that we're in the middle of a shock to labor markets. We're not in a "open labor market", the longterm trend since the 1970s/1980s is labor market concentration. We see this in every part of the economy, but low wage/service jobs are about 4x more concentrated than they were in the past. The 'fair market' wage is estimated the same way other prices are, by looking at real aggregate supply and demand (in this case, in labor markets).


Don't use some market segments like retail to generalize the entire economy. You can't have it both ways... if there really is a limit of employers, workers are the ones that control their fate. Workers are the ones that will define their mobility and their tolerance for wages - not employers.

If there are a sufficiently large number of employers competing for labor, then it's possible for employees to change firms at a higher wage. If wages are uniform throughout the sector that employs a worker - in the case of our economy, because markets are non-competitive and employers set wages - then workers are unable to negotiate higher wages.


Truth is wages have increased nearly 50% in hourly low-skill labor in this past year... more so than any other segment, with more opportunities than ever. Yet people say 'there is no work available' - It's non-sense. People are trying to get the work THEY WANT and then whine it's not available to them. What are they doing about it?

Leaving aside whether this statistic is true or not, all this is saying is that workers - right now - are better able to negotiate their wages. We have about 40-50 years of data showing that wages have not changed or declined in real terms. Any gains - at present - are short term in nature.

My job didn't pay enough.. so I worked two jobs. Housing was too expensive, so I shared a room with 3 other people. The job I wanted wasn't local and required an up to 2hr commute.. so I commuted in one of the worst traffic spots in the country. Eventually I got tired of that, so I moved. But again too expensive so I moved really far out to where I could afford it. I wanted more things then my pay provided - so I did the sacrifices to lead the pack and succeed in my field. When it comes to review time I tell my boss how I brought success to their business and drove things like revenue or customer success... I don't tell them "well I got another kid, can I have a raise?"

One of the saddest things that comes up in these conversations is exactly how many people were underpaid for their labor and suffered for it. You shouldn't have had to work two jobs or shared a room with three other people to survive. You should have been paid an adequate amount.

I emphasize with people struggling to get by - but show me what you are doing about it.

Well, right now, workers are doing exactly what you're saying they should do. They're using their market power to negotiate higher wages.

My wife's company right now will pay nearly $20/hr just to follow a script to teach kids how to swim by standing in a 3ft pool... no experience needed. They can't get people to apply.. and those that do.. don't even show up consistently. They can't even keep people hired for 60 days because people JUST DON'T SHOW UP. No.. I've seen enough, don't cry to me about 'unfair markets' or 'no work available'. It's plentiful - people aren't pulling their own weight.

I'm confused - isn't that what you're saying people should do? Negotiate higher wages. If people don't see that kind of work as worth $20/hour, in a free market, they aren't obligated to take that job. In your words - no one is forcing them to do that.
 
Last edited:

October82

Well-Known Member
Back to Disneyland not wanting to pay their employees decently: This has been an issue for ages, this isn't a secret. So, what do WE do, as people who enjoy going to the parks? Why aren't people creating Change dot org petitions for the dignity of living people? Am I missing something here? I know for a while, cast members whom I knew said that not going to the parks actually didn't help, because the scheduling people would use it to punish cast members instead. IDK I am really at a loss, honestly.

Disney is just a company doing what companies do. I really think if you want to make a difference, you can do that by voting for politicians that will raise the minimum wage or pass fair wage laws. The living wage ballot measure - tying a living wage to tax subsidies - was ill conceived, but blanket minimum wage increases aren't.
 
Last edited:

flynnibus

Premium Member
What makes this conversation difficult right now is that we're in the middle of a shock to labor markets. We're not in a "open labor market", the longterm trend since the 1970s/1980s is labor market concentration. We see this in every part of the economy, but low wage/service jobs are about 4x more concentrated than they were in the past. The 'fair market' wage is estimated the same way other prices are, by looking at real aggregate supply and demand (in this case, in labor markets).

So you're saying you're comparing to a theoretical market vs any actual one? Got it. In the real world.. humans act on human nature, not by a economic model that is simply trying to PREDICT human action.

If there are a sufficiently large number of employers competing for labor, then it's possible for employees to change firms at a higher wage. If wages are uniform throughout the sector that employs a worker - in the case of our economy, because markets are non-competitive and employers set wages - than workers are unable to negotiate higher wages.

But markets aren't uniform. Nor are they captive. Nor is a person trapped to only work in one. This is a lazy "oh I can't get any other job" excuse. Orlando job market sucks? Leave. Pay for housekeepers sucks? Switch jobs.


Leaving aside whether this statistic is true or not, all this is saying is that workers - right now - are better able to negotiate their wages. We have about 40-50 years of data showing that wages have not changed or declined in real terms. Any gains - at present - are short term in nature.

And this country is full of 100+million people that navigated that past. Wages aren't going to go down from here.. the pace won't continue, but the new bar is set. The problem is the affordability those wages grant will erode.


One of the saddest things that comes up in these conversations is exactly how many people were underpaid for their labor and suffered for it. You shouldn't have had to work two jobs or shared a room with three other people to survive. You should have been paid an adequate amount.

Again - non-sense. How can you make that judgement? You don't know what work I did... nor my life situation at that time. It's perfectly acceptable to me and millions of people before you that a 20yr old kid probably needs roommates and isn't going to be established enough to enjoy a life of convenience while all he is doing is working registers and rolling pretzels being sold for $1.50 each.

Well, right now, workers are doing exactly what you're saying they should do. They're using their market power to negotiate higher wages.

Something that is happening without individual action/contribution. So again, tell me what they are doing themselves to advance beyond this bottom rung and what comes along with it?

I'm confused - isn't that what you're saying people should do? Negotiate higher wages. If people don't see that kind of work as worth $20/hour, in a free market, they aren't obligated to take that job. In your words - no one is forcing them to do that.

Clearly you don't understand. They took the job - and simply decide NOT TO SHOW UP for all their shifts. Taking the job is your commitment TO DO THE JOB. I'm not talking about showing up for first day of work.. I'm talking about people who think NoCall-NoShow is perfectly acceptable behavior because they didn't want to show up for their shift. Literally they think showing up is a 'best effort' kinda of thing and maybe they just didn't want to get up that morning. And then are upset that they get fired.

Literally we have to schedule and pay two additional people every shift just to cover the potential for people not NCNS or or calling out sick 30mins before their shift.
 

Register on WDWMAGIC. This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.

Back
Top Bottom