Disney not subject to Anaheim’s ‘living wage’ ballot measure, judge rules - OCR/SCNG

[RobWDW1971]

Problem solved for now. Glad you can finally agree that union action, corporate pressure and government actions are all part of the market response.

Of course they are and employees are always able to unionize and try to demand better wages. And now these union members have approved their new pay and would have nobody to blame but themselves (or their unions/coworkers if they voted against it). And Disney has agreed that these jobs are worth this pay or they would have taken the strike to fight against it. Disney is also able to reduce employees through automation, reduced shifts, and outsource jobs to non-union companies when able within the contract.

The question of labor value in the market is not changed. If you are a person who takes a union job then you are signing up for fixed pay based on role/seniority, no unlimited upside based on your potential, work ethic, or skills, a fixed set of rules/positions/pay for your advancement, etc. This is balanced against making it more difficult to be terminated for poor performance, having established rules/benefits/recourse, etc.

I was a union member earlier in my career and when it became clear to me that I was making exactly what the worst employee was making and always would, I realized I'd rather take the risk in the marketplace and be paid based on my skills, output, and potential. That comes with risk, but I'll take my chances in the free market any day.

 

[October82]

Of course they are and employees are always able to unionize and try to demand better wages. And now these union members have approved their new pay and would have nobody to blame but themselves (or their unions/coworkers if they voted against it). And Disney has agreed that these jobs are worth this pay or they would have taken the strike to fight against it. Disney is also able to reduce employees through automation, reduced shifts, and outsource jobs to non-union companies when able within the contract.

The question of labor value in the market is not changed. If you are a person who takes a union job then you are signing up for fixed pay based on role/seniority, no unlimited upside based on your potential, work ethic, or skills, a fixed set of rules/positions/pay for your advancement, etc. This is balanced against making it more difficult to be terminated for poor performance, having established rules/benefits/recourse, etc.

I was a union member earlier in my career and when it became clear to me that I was making exactly what the worst employee was making and always would, I realized I'd rather take the risk in the marketplace and be paid based on my skills, output, and potential. That comes with risk, but I'll take my chances in the free market any day.

Unions increase pay for all workers in the economy, not just the workers at a single company. You benefited from the fact that your employer was unionized both in terms of higher pay for yourself than you otherwise would have received, and you benefited from your previous employer being unionized after you left.

What unions do is make the pay and termination decisions more fair for both employees and employers. If a company isn't responding to unproductive employees, that's a problem with the management of the company. It's not a general fact about unionized workers, who, in fact, tend to be better works than their peers at non-unionized companies.

 

[Vegas Disney Fan]

Woo hoo! The free market, capitalist system is working as it should!

We shall never read in these forums about the Cast being underpaid again! Problem solved!

And since they, through their union votes, are going to apparently agree to this new wage structure, we can also put aside any "living wage" arguments because they all just approved their new pay on their own free will!

I love when it all works out. USA! USA!

And as expected Disney is finding ways to offset those raises, wave bye to free FP+ and say hello to paid Genie+ and paid individual Lightning lane.

 

[TP2000]

Is there the possibility that Disney is only playing field with only ONE union that they found be more malleable and wants to distance itself from the other?

No. There are many different unions at Disneyland. They all have different union contracts that are all valid for a specific amount of time, some only two years but most are three years or more, and they all come up for negotiations at different times.

This latest conversation is about the Master Services union, which is a big one. But it does not involve the other unions like the hotels, food service, skilled tradesmen, stage performers, etc.

This discussion is only taking place because this is when the four year long Master Services union agreement was set to be negotiated. Check back in 2025 for a repeat of this thread.

And I can't wait to hear the argument of what a "Living Wage!" for churro salesmen is by 2025.

 

[TP2000]

For an employer like Disneyland, there is a lot of, for lack of a better term, "overhead" knowledge that CMs are expected to have that is wholly specific to working at Disneyland. Things like

park layout
park rules and regulations
attractions locations / types
height requirements
bathroom locations
restaurant types/locations/hours
character locations (sometimes for specific characters)
entertainment showtimes
check in/clock in locations (over multiple scheduled locations)
parking locations and gate access requirements
costuming requirements

That's a new twist on why churro vendors and ride operators deserve $45 per hour as a Living Wage.

Those are special little requirements of the job, or at least requirements to do the job well.

But that doesn't change the simple fact that any average 18 year old with a high school diploma and no previous work experience or skills can do that job and remember where the bathroom is.

The 18 year old kid doesn't even have to get a haircut any more to work at Disneyland.

He can look as weird as he wants now and still get hired at Disneyland; long hair, tats, piercings, purple fingernail polish, spangly-dangly earrings for his Frontierland shift.

 

[TP2000]

She may be literally the worst person for the "living wage" argument you could imagine and the fact that she is apparently the Poster Child, tells you all you need to know about the logic behind it.

Isn't it fascinating? And her own words and her own facts were curated and produced by media profesionals trying to advance a political agenda and paint her as the victim of an evil corporation.

If, at age 60, I have just spent that last three or four decades of my working life setting up juice and muffins in the same hotel lounge, I would become extremely introspective on the life choices I made.

Instead, she sits next to Bernie Sanders on stage and blames her lifelong employer. Bizzaro-World!

For those who missed it, this video is absolute perfection...

 

[TP2000]

Cheapskate... Cheesecake... whatever his name is makes millions of dollars a year.

Bob Chapek got paid $14.2 Million last fiscal year. And I get the argument there, it's a very high salary.

If you took Chapek's salary and divided it up between the 25,000 hourly CM's at Disneyland and the 50,000 hourly CM's at Disney World, each hourly CM in America would get... $189.

One hundred eighty nine dollars per person, per year. Before taxes and union dues were removed.

 

[RobWDW1971]

Unions increase pay for all workers in the economy, not just the workers at a single company. You benefited from the fact that your employer was unionized both in terms of higher pay for yourself than you otherwise would have received, and you benefited from your previous employer being unionized after you left.

What unions do is make the pay and termination decisions more fair for both employees and employers. If a company isn't responding to unproductive employees, that's a problem with the management of the company. It's not a general fact about unionized workers, who, in fact, tend to be better works than their peers at non-unionized companies.

May want to Google "Rust Belt exodus and abandoned factories"...

Well, as someone who has run both unionized and non-unionized businesses, your comment that unionized workers tend to be better than their non-union peers is certainly not what I've experienced in several situations and multiple industries, but glad that's been your experience.

But the market has spoken so....

 

[RobWDW1971]

Bob Chapek got paid $14.2 Million last fiscal year. And I get the argument there, it's a very high salary.

If you took Chapek's salary and divided it up between the 25,000 hourly CM's at Disneyland and the 50,000 hourly CM's at Disney World, each hourly CM in America would get... $189.

One hundred eighty nine dollars per person, per year. Before taxes and union dues were removed.

And then you'd still have to go out and get a new CEO for a global $300+ billion media giant at market rates for successful CEO's. And you'll have to cover their unvested stock options and bonus incentives from their current company to get them to leave, which will dwarf their salary.

And you're back to Square One.

 

[TP2000]

And then you'd still have to go out and get a new CEO for a global $300+ billion media giant at market rates for successful CEO's. And you'll have to cover their unvested stock options and bonus incentives from their current company to get them to leave, which will dwarf their salary.

And you're back to Square One.

Yeah, but think of how cool the congratulatory Tweet from @BernieSanders would look!

 

[No Name]

At the end of the day, His name is on that letter. Its his responsibility and he has to take the heat on it. But I know people will still swoon over him, and think he can do no wrong...

When Josh D’Amaro brushes his teeth, his teeth clean the toothbrush. He’s such a god that when he heats up 90 second rice, it takes him only 60 seconds. The true eighth wonder of the world, Mr. D’Amaro can do no wrong.

 

[Dear Prudence]

Mocking people in service positions on an anonymous forum while still utilizing their services. Good grief, just pay people appropriately.

 

[October82]

May want to Google "Rust Belt exodus and abandoned factories"...

You may want to google "globalization" and "service economy".

Well, as someone who has run both unionized and non-unionized businesses, your comment that unionized workers tend to be better than their non-union peers is certainly not what I've experienced in several situations and multiple industries, but glad that's been your experience.

Something tells me that your attitude towards unionized vs non-unionized workers has more to do with your political beliefs about the value of labor than the actual ability of the people you've worked with. Regardless, one very simple way of measuring how productive workers are in the economy as a whole is GDP per capita. Since we're sharing graphs

(it should be said that the case for unionization increasing productivity does not begin or end with something like the above plot - but it does make the point in simple terms)

But the market has spoken so....

View attachment 599937

This isn't because of market forces. This is because of changes in labor law in the 1970s and 1980s. But yes, declining union membership is the second most important factor in the loss of income among the lowest wage earners. This is because unions increase bargaining power and that reduces the effects of globalization and labor market concentration on low income earners.

You can think of declining union share as a sort of government subsidy to large businesses.

 

[TP2000]

Mocking people in service positions on an anonymous forum while still utilizing their services. Good grief, just pay people appropriately.

We are actually mocking salaried union leaders and paid organizers who go on stage and on TV pretending to be just average workers. (Google Glyndanna Shevlin, if you'd care to.)

But what is "appropriately" here??? Name the dollar amount Glyndanna Shevlin should get for setting out muffins and juice every morning in the hotel lounge. Name that dollar amount, please.

I already did. I think she should make about $18 an hour, give or take 50 cents. (In Glyndanna's case, because she's so publicly nasty to her lifelong employer, I'd happily ding her 50 cents per hour. Naughty Glyndanna!)

In your estimate, what does Glyndanna make for putting out muffins and telling hotel guests day after day for thirty years that the fireworks are at 9:30? Put a dollar figure on that.

 

[flynnibus]

Regardless, one very simple way of measuring how productive workers are in the economy as a whole is GDP per capita. Since we're sharing graphs

Good lord talk about taking liberties... as if no other trends relate to GDP output?

While you praise union protections - you also see how many workers flee from them as hinderances on their ability to succeed and differentiate themselves.

This isn't because of market forces. This is because of changes in labor law in the 1970s and 1980s. But yes, declining union membership is the second most important factor in the loss of income among the lowest wage earners. This is because unions increase bargaining power and that reduces the effects of globalization and labor market concentration on low income earners. You can think of declining union share as a sort of government subsidy to large businesses.

The people who benefit the most from the unions are the unions. I have family in union leadership, and everyone in my father's family was prior union, as was I. The only ones who really made out were the ones who benefited from labor agreements decades ago that gave wild stuff like 3x pay on holidays and two who worked 30+ years so they have decent retirements before the death of pensions.

It's like the federal workers... no one sees the protections as actually beneficial to getting things done, but people praise the nearly impeneraterable job security wall so they don't have to worry about performance. Pay hits ceilings and they are not motivated to do more. It breeds complacency. And the feds don't make more than their private sector counterparts either... people go there for the perks and safe harbor.

 

[TP2000]

You may want to google "globalization" and "service economy".

You may want to Google "churro vendor" or "fast food busboy".

It's still a job only worth about minimum wage. For Disneyland, where they have to park a mile away and put up with idiocy from TDA executives and disgusting cafeteria food, but no longer have to cut their hair or remove their purple nail polish, it's an entry-level job worth two or three bucks over minimum wage.

Which is what the CM's currently get per hour. Plus perks and benefits and free college tuition.

 

[EPCOTCenterLover]

I’d be interested in figures showing Union workers work harder than nonUnion employees. Not where I worked for 15 years!

 

[Dear Prudence]

We are actually mocking salaried union leaders and paid organizers who go on stage and on TV pretending to be just average workers. (Google Glyndanna Shevlin, if you'd care to.)

But what is "appropriately" here??? Name the dollar amount Glyndanna Shevlin should get for setting out muffins and juice every morning in the hotel lounge. Name that dollar amount, please.

I already did. I think she should make about $18 an hour, give or take 50 cents. (In Glyndanna's case, because she's so publicly nasty to her lifelong employer, I'd happily ding her 50 cents per hour. Naughty Glyndanna!)

In your estimate, what does Glyndanna make for putting out muffins and telling hotel guests day after day for thirty years that the fireworks are at 9:30? Put a dollar figure on that.

Not being facetious, but I think people who work in the hospitality industry are saints and deserve way more money. I could not imagine dealing with spoiled, entitled Disney Adults who are disconnected from reality for more than 20 minutes. I don't even want to listen to them talk while waiting in line

 

[TP2000]

Not being facetious, but I think people who work in the hospitality industry are saints and deserve way more money. I could not imagine dealing with spoiled, entitled Disney Adults who are disconnected from reality for more than 20 minutes. I don't even want to listen to them talk while waiting in line

There are Karens around the world, in every culture and every industry. Ever waited in line at the return desk at your local Target?

What should the hourly rate be that Glyndanna Shevlin receives for putting out muffins and juice in the hotel lounge?

I say it's $17.50.

What's the hourly rate you think she should receive for the job task of "Hotel Lounge Hostess"?

 

[October82]

I’d be interested in figures showing Union workers work harder than nonUnion employees. Not where I worked for 15 years!

Depends what you mean by 'work harder'. What economists mean by this is 'labor productivity'.

What happens to most people is that you remember the people who you think don't work hard enough or aren't good at their jobs. You largely forget the majority of your coworkers who do work hard and are productive. I definitely haven't known unionized workers to be anything less than hard working people.

It turns out people who are in unions are - on average - more productive. Maybe they work harder or maybe their companies are better run. There's little debate among economists about whether unions improve productivity. But there is debate about how that happens.