Disney Golf courses to be operated, managed and maintained by Arnold Palmer Golf

stitch2008

Member
Coupled with all the other consolidation activity within the theme parks division, what was once absurd to believe, seems to really have legs, that eventually the company will sell off all or a piece of the theme park business. Disney is just another corporation and business in this country has changed a lot over the years. They are beholden to the giant Wall St. investors who only clamor for the most profit humanly possible and could care less about what makes certain companies special and business is no longer about making a fair amount of profit, it's all about maximizing. It's an institutionally held company that is all about branding and cash flow.

I dont want to turn this into a "Disney Parks are getting sold" thread. But the thought of them selling it doesnt make any sense. The difference here is that golf courses dont make anywhere near as much as the theme parks themselves. There's also a great deal of risk in golf course operation. Weather directly impacts these courses more so then the theme parks.

People say the parks arent the biggest money maker for Disney; ESPN is. Thats true. But the parks are still up there as one the big money makers. They certainly are doing better then the studio is doing. It makes sense to outsource things like golf course operations. It makes no sense to sell off part of the parks.
 

jt04

Well-Known Member
Of all of the third party subcontracted agreements, this one seems to make really good sense. I don't see this move as being anything other than a win-win for both companies and their customers/guests.

It can and hopefully will be. If it allows Disney to concentrate on the parks more than I think it is positive news.

I used to be a happy golfing Floridian, so it's true that Arnold Palmer's group will do a very good job with the courses. What this announcement shows us is that the company is treating the property as a mature, solid, but not high growth area for the company and they are continuing to outsource various businesses at WDW.

When I used to go to Disney properties, what made them so special besides the obvious, was that everything was done internally and with the utmost highest quality. That is no longer the case. Everything is an issue of maximizing profit from the Florida property.

Coupled with all the other consolidation activity within the theme parks division, what was once absurd to believe, seems to really have legs, that eventually the company will sell off all or a piece of the theme park business. Disney is just another corporation and business in this country has changed a lot over the years. They are beholden to the giant Wall St. investors who only clamor for the most profit humanly possible and could care less about what makes certain companies special and business is no longer about making a fair amount of profit, it's all about maximizing. It's an institutionally held company that is all about branding and cash flow.

As a former FL resident and decade and a half AP holder, what they've done to the property is very disappointing.

When you stop to think what could have been it gets discouraging. I am not being provocative when saying this but I put the blame on Disney's overreaction to Universal which led to WDW growing faster than they had the ability to manage properly. The only hope, in my opinion, of maintaining what makes the property special is to outsource those areas outside of theie expertise such as the golf courses and other aspects that are not "on stage". It is disappointing it has come to this but at this point it is probably the only way that the property does not get sold off piece by piece. And I keep hoping there is a line in the sand that will keep them from ever selling off the MK and the monorail resorts, WL and FW.
 

flynnibus

Premium Member
Why do people assume hiring a subcontractor to manage normal operations means they would actually change the courses at all?

They've basically just sub'd out an area WDW didn't want to focus on.. because the idea of a 'resort' continues its slow death at WDW.

You know.. AP is a big name in Golf.. but Disney is an even BIGGER name in customer service and differentiators. To see another part of the parks be sub'd out to operate under someone else's banner is another sad day for Disney.
 

stitch2008

Member
Why do people assume hiring a subcontractor to manage normal operations means they would actually change the courses at all?

They've basically just sub'd out an area WDW didn't want to focus on.. because the idea of a 'resort' continues its slow death at WDW.

You know.. AP is a big name in Golf.. but Disney is an even BIGGER name in customer service and differentiators. To see another part of the parks be sub'd out to operate under someone else's banner is another sad day for Disney.

I dont think people realize how expensive it is to run five golf courses. Golf courses by nature, even in Florida, are a huge risk. The cost of maintaining just 1 big time course is astronomical. Most major courses spend over $1 million on these costs. And there are soooooo many courses in the area. So many good courses in the area.

It makes all the sense in the world to let Arnie and his guys take over. Less cost for Disney, money saved can be used for the rest of the resort, and Arnie can come in a spark some new life into these courses. I golf a ton. But honestly, I have never been interested in going any of the Disney courses. I'm sure they are fine and all. Just nothing has jumped out and made me go wow, I should fork over some extra dough to go golfing at WDW. The fact Arnie is coming in and running the courses has me very interested and I'm actually more interested in golf there now; nowing that he could be redesigning things.

You said it right there in the last line of your post. "AP is a big name in golf". Cause he is. I don't mean to gush, but his courses are the best out there today. It makes a ton of sense to hand of the courses to Arnie and let him do what he has done everywhere he goes....run succesful golf courses. And think of the marketing aspect of this. Disney can now say they have 5 Arnold Palmer Group courses on property. For people who like to golf, thats a huge selling point. Because I said above, no one has better courses then him.
 

menamechris

Well-Known Member
What this announcement shows us is that the company is treating the property as a mature, solid, but not high growth area for the company and they are continuing to outsource various businesses at WDW.

When I used to go to Disney properties, what made them so special besides the obvious, was that everything was done internally and with the utmost highest quality. That is no longer the case. Everything is an issue of maximizing profit from the Florida property.

Coupled with all the other consolidation activity within the theme parks division, what was once absurd to believe, seems to really have legs, that eventually the company will sell off all or a piece of the theme park business. Disney is just another corporation and business in this country has changed a lot over the years. They are beholden to the giant Wall St. investors who only clamor for the most profit humanly possible and could care less about what makes certain companies special and business is no longer about making a fair amount of profit, it's all about maximizing. It's an institutionally held company that is all about branding and cash flow.

As a former FL resident and decade and a half AP holder, what they've done to the property is very disappointing.

Well, let' not jump to conclusions. Ha! I haven't really thought of WDW as doing everything "internally with the highest quality" since I first saw a McDonald's in Frontierland in the 90's. I found that to be far more tacky and attacking of the spirit of Disney than anything else. McDonald's has of course since been removed from the parks - and if this alliance doesn't work for the golfing guests, I am sure it will be terminated, as well. I don't think any sort of conclusion about sales of parks of any of that sort can be deduced from a move like this. If anything, it would further complicate such a move, because it would mean prearranged relationships and fine print for whoever would entertain the idea of buying the parks.

Let me put it this way - my friend's mom is a serious golfer. She really has never gotten the "Disney" thing and certainly wouldn't have considered making a trip to Florida for it. Well, guess who (as of today) is planning her golfing vacation at the most magical place on earth? This will bring golfers in to stay at WDW - and they may not even step foot into the parks. This is really good news when you look at it that way....
 

zulemara

Well-Known Member
In the Parks
Yes
for the question regarding cast...they might be offering them equal paying jobs in other parts of the Disney company, but the difference is Disney never considered golf a tipped position, so the money those guys make on tips during pretty much every month except the summer months will not be compensated, and a lot of them will be ed about it.

I was always under the impression that the courses did well and were a cash cow for Disney. I was a CP at the Palm/Mag in Aug 2004-May 2005

On the plus side, maybe they will finally redesign the cart area so it doesn't take forever to shuttle 150 golf carts from the mag to the cart barn.
 

Pioneer Hall

Well-Known Member
for the question regarding cast...they might be offering them equal paying jobs in other parts of the Disney company, but the difference is Disney never considered golf a tipped position, so the money those guys make on tips during pretty much every month except the summer months will not be compensated, and a lot of them will be ed about it.

I was always under the impression that the courses did well and were a cash cow for Disney. I was a CP at the Palm/Mag in Aug 2004-May 2005

On the plus side, maybe they will finally redesign the cart area so it doesn't take forever to shuttle 150 golf carts from the mag to the cart barn.

Something tells me that Disney's take is making this partnership well worthwhile for them. They wouldn't do it otherwise.
 

flynnibus

Premium Member
I dont think people realize how expensive it is to run five golf courses. Golf courses by nature, even in Florida, are a huge risk. The cost of maintaining just 1 big time course is astronomical

So if it's so high in cost.. why would this arrangement be more desirable as a customer? When it's part of a larger operation.. you can make up your revenue elsewhere and afford to share costs, run loss leaders, etc. But when you subcontract... you lose all that and the customers will be left to pickup the difference in cost.

The fact Arnie is coming in and running the courses has me very interested and I'm actually more interested in golf there now; nowing that he could be redesigning things.

Based on what? Don't you think if they had immediate plans to restructure the courses under AP's label they would be jumping up and down and happy to let you know that? But there is no such mention of that. They've been hired to operate the existing courses.
 

wm49rs

A naughty bit o' crumpet
Premium Member
Based on what? Don't you think if they had immediate plans to restructure the courses under AP's label they would be jumping up and down and happy to let you know that? But there is no such mention of that. They've been hired to operate the existing courses.

Actually, the article mentions how AP will work to redesign the courses:

"As part of this long-term alliance agreement, golf legend Arnold Palmer and his golf course design team will be actively engaged in implementing strategic and innovative design features to several of the golf courses. Future enhancements include plans for a full renovation of Disney’s Palm under his direction to become an Arnold Palmer designed course."
 

stitch2008

Member
So if it's so high in cost.. why would this arrangement be more desirable as a customer? When it's part of a larger operation.. you can make up your revenue elsewhere and afford to share costs, run loss leaders, etc. But when you subcontract... you lose all that and the customers will be left to pickup the difference in cost.



Based on what? Don't you think if they had immediate plans to restructure the courses under AP's label they would be jumping up and down and happy to let you know that? But there is no such mention of that. They've been hired to operate the existing courses.


1. But when your operation gets too big, you need to find ways to cut your costs. Thats exactly whats going on here. They are handing over the costs of operations to Arnold Palmer Group. Disney STILL owns the courses. They are simply taking a small chunk of profit because of the profit split with Arnold Palmer Group. Now TDO will probably take this money saved every year to cover other operating expenses at WDW like transportation or even energy use.

2. Of course no one is jumping up and down. How much time do you think he's really spent working on changes hed like to make? Probably none. You don't just wake up, get out some paper, draw some hole designs and say there I have a golf course designed; lets build it now, oh happy day. There is a lot of painstaking planning that must go into it. Do we keep the same type of greens? What about the hole placement? Do we keep this kinda grass? How high should the rough be? What kinda sand do we put in the bunkers? How should this hill be here? Do we have enough water on this course? Is the course too hard? Is it too easy? These all seem like very simple questions. But trust me, if you rush through those questions without very careful planning, your course will suffer. And if you dont spend a lot of time thinking about a maintenance plan, all your hard work and money will go down the tubes and your course will either turn into large upscale retail center or a large housing developments with plenty of open lots starting at $150,000. Trust me I've seen several courses in the area just vanish because of bad planning.

Knowing golf course designers, they always like to put their mark on their courses. I have no doubt Arnie will put his own stamp on these courses. They all need work. And he has the tools, dough, and know how to give WDW some of the best courses in the country.
 

Riversiders

New Member
For golfers this could be a good move as we associate Arnold Palmer with great courses and quality perhaps the courses will be promoted better and greater benefits for resort guests to play them. it was a sad day when they dug up eagle pines which i thought was the best course out of them all.
 

jt04

Well-Known Member
I just learned that Arnold Palmer himself will be working on upgrading the Palm course! This is great news as it is or should be the signature course at WDW. To have Arnold Palmer's name associated with it makes this deal a win for everyone in my opinion.

I'm ecstatic. :)
 

flynnibus

Premium Member
Actually, the article mentions how AP will work to redesign the courses:

It's intentionally vague. I wouldn't hold your breath waiting for major changes. This is like 'under new management' - not 'we're going to build new courses'

1. But when your operation gets too big, you need to find ways to cut your costs. Thats exactly whats going on here

You don't look to cut cost due to size.. you cut costs when your return isn't worth your investment. You outsource like this to reduce overhead and liabilities. You outsource when something isn't within your economies of scale and/or to jettison the overhead associated with operating it. When Disney already had built up the means to operate the courses over the last decades... and they have economies of scale with all the other landscaping abilities within the organization... this has to be about reducing risks and overhead. They aren't going to get someone else to do the work cheaper then they can do it. They are simply jettisoning the liability of the people and operating costs. They are accepting less revenue in return for reducing risk.

Maybe Disney looked at these and said it's time for a overhaul and wasn't willing to do the outlay to make it happen. Maybe they looked at it and said it's too low of margin to operate. Maybe they were looking to rebrand the product and get some major name associated with it.. and the only way others would play is by taking them over...

My guess is it's a bit of the last one, combined with an opportunity for Disney to gracefully get out an area they care less and less about.

Disney STILL owns the courses. They are simply taking a small chunk of profit because of the profit split with Arnold Palmer Group. Now TDO will probably take this money saved every year to cover other operating expenses at WDW like transportation or even energy use.

But we don't know the terms of the arrangement. We don't know if Disney is paying AP to operate the facilities, or if AP agreed to take them over outright in exchange for a lease fee and/or percentage.

It seems in contention if the courses were even profitable for Disney or not..

To me this seems to be more about finding a way of marketing the product (notice all the emphasis in the PR about the ways AP will help promote the courses) and Disney gets to jettison more overhead.. which seems to be a very desirable strategy of TDO in the last 5+ years. Outsource valets, transportation, etc.

2. Of course no one is jumping up and down. How much time do you think he's really spent working on changes hed like to make? Probably none

It's not about the details of how they'd do it... but if they were to make a massive capital investment for improvements as part of the deal.. that would very much be decided up front. It would be a factor in negotiating what the operating agreement would be like. If AP were to agree to invest a large amount of capital, that would be a reason to negotiate a lower leasing fee or profit share, etc. If Disney were to negotiate a large investment like that, they'd be boasting about it to the investors on why this is a great business move.. and to the fan base to wet their whistle on future improvements. But there is none of that.

Remember.. a PR is supposed to BOAST about how something is great and good for the reader. Yet this PR basically leaves you with 'disney is handing over operations, we get the AP brand, and their promotion'.

This doesn't scream 'investment', 'reboot' or change. It sounds like this is 90% based on the promotion ability of getting the courses into AP's partner network.

Disney of old would outsource stuff that they didn't know how to do.. then learned it.. and then kicked the vendors out as Disney would do it BETTER then the outsider and do it with 'the disney way'. From shops, to construction, to hotels, to technology, etc... Disney of today instead looks to get rid of Disney operations to outsource to someone else after they've done it for decades. That's not a good trend.
 

menamechris

Well-Known Member
But we don't know the terms of the arrangement. We don't know if Disney is paying AP to operate the facilities, or if AP agreed to take them over outright in exchange for a lease fee and/or percentage.

Terms of the arrangement we know. Numbers we don't. Sometimes you have to dig deeper than the press release. As you can see from the article, AP will be paying annual lease payments, and Disney will get a cut of the profits.

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/the-...y-golf-arnold-palmer-20110824,0,1710954.story
 

wm49rs

A naughty bit o' crumpet
Premium Member
It's intentionally vague. I wouldn't hold your breath waiting for major changes. This is like 'under new management' - not 'we're going to build new courses'

Yes, I found "a full renovation of Disney’s Palm under his direction to become an Arnold Palmer designed course" to be particularly ambiguous.....
 

wedway71

Well-Known Member
My question is, what about the merchandise/Pro Shops? I can see the operation of Golf Courses but what about the operation of the stores?

The Pro Shops still fall under Merchandise? If so, what kind of arrangement is made?

Does Disney have control over Product Assortment, merchandising, buying, etc or do they now just sell their wares to AP, and they make all of those decisions?
 

stitch2008

Member
My question is, what about the merchandise/Pro Shops? I can see the operation of Golf Courses but what about the operation of the stores?

The Pro Shops still fall under Merchandise? If so, what kind of arrangement is made?

Does Disney have control over Product Assortment, merchandising, buying, etc or do they now just sell their wares to AP, and they make all of those decisions?

Thats a bit unclear at this point. I imagine that the two have an arrangement that will allow Disney to sell the same things they always have and allow AP to sell the items they wish to sell. So they both get to sell things.
 

NeedMoreMickey

Well-Known Member
I think Arnold Palmer taking over the management of the courses and the redesign of the Palm course is a great idea. If you have ever been to Bay Hill you will know that Arnold Palmer doesn’t do things half way. People say they are going to Disney for the parks and may play a round while they are there but I don’t know anyone who goes to Disney just for golf, this could change with the upgrade. Golfers will travel to play a course designed or redesigned by one of their favorite architects plus this could help as a selling point for the new DVC right across the street at GF.
 

jt04

Well-Known Member
I think Arnold Palmer taking over the management of the courses and the redesign of the Palm course is a great idea. If you have ever been to Bay Hill you will know that Arnold Palmer doesn’t do things half way. People say they are going to Disney for the parks and may play a round while they are there but I don’t know anyone who goes to Disney just for golf, this could change with the upgrade. Golfers will travel to play a course designed or redesigned by one of their favorite architects plus this could help as a selling point for the new DVC right across the street at GF.

It already is a great course so I would expect it to be exactly as you say with an upgrade. The more this sinks in the more I like the idea.

Well played Disney.
 

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