Disney confirms 'Frozen' makeover coming to Epcot's Norway Pavilion

AEfx

Well-Known Member
Let's calm down on that for just a minute. It's a test, not a fiasco. And it's a test not even to make TSMM full FP+, it's a test to make it partial FP+ and partial Stand-by on separate tracks.

Oh I was referring to the entire enterprise of FP+, not just here.

Overall, it's creating multiple class of theme park guests. Some will argue it's always been that way, but I heartily disagree - everyone who walked into the park could be assured the opportunity to have generally the same experience. The one real exception was sit down restaurants. Now, you have multiple classes of guests - those guests who have magic bands and FP+ and a smart phone, those that have magic bands and FP+ but have to rely on terminals because they have no smart phone, guests that have limited FP+ because of the ticket media, those poor guests who don't have any access to FP+ at all, etc.

That said, yes, I do think that "testing" this out is a fiasco - because guests are being denied the privilege of being allowed to wait in a line to experience a WDW attraction during normal business hours, which is unacceptable to me.
 

Next Big Thing

Well-Known Member
Oh I was referring to the entire enterprise of FP+, not just here.

Overall, it's creating multiple class of theme park guests. Some will argue it's always been that way, but I heartily disagree - everyone who walked into the park could be assured the opportunity to have generally the same experience. The one real exception was sit down restaurants. Now, you have multiple classes of guests - those guests who have magic bands and FP+ and a smart phone, those that have magic bands and FP+ but have to rely on terminals because they have no smart phone, guests that have limited FP+ because of the ticket media, those poor guests who don't have any access to FP+ at all, etc.

That said, yes, I do think that "testing" this out is a fiasco - because guests are being denied the privilege of being allowed to wait in a line to experience a WDW attraction during normal business hours, which is unacceptable to me.
What do you mean "because of ticket media"? Every guest that enters the park now is given access to FP+.
 

AEfx

Well-Known Member
Can you elaborate further here? I feel this would be a nice new direction of discussion.

This is kind of the perfect storm of Frozen, so to speak. You have folks who think it's a bad film and doesn't deserve attention at all and that it will somehow be irrelevant in a few years (which flies in the face of practically all evidence to the contrary or prior history), you have folks that love the film and are disappointed that it's not getting the deluxe treatment they believe it deserves, and everyone in between (including the folks that don't care what film it is, they simply do not believe any film-related attraction should go into WS).

So right now, there seems to be a perceived common enemy in this project - but if, say, they had announced a 250M attraction to go in MK, there wouldn't be as many folks upset, but a good contingent would not be happy that Disney would be spending lavishly on it because it's Frozen in particular, or because they feel a more "classic" film should get that treatment, etc. As you read the posts people make, even though they are in the same direction (anti-Frozen in Maelstrom) a lot of folks are coming at it from very different areas of interest/angles.
 

Mike S

Well-Known Member
This is kind of the perfect storm of Frozen, so to speak. You have folks who think it's a bad film and doesn't deserve attention at all and that it will somehow be irrelevant in a few years (which flies in the face of practically all evidence to the contrary or prior history), you have folks that love the film and are disappointed that it's not getting the deluxe treatment they believe it deserves, and everyone in between (including the folks that don't care what film it is, they simply do not believe any film-related attraction should go into WS).

So right now, there seems to be a perceived common enemy in this project - but if, say, they had announced a 250M attraction to go in MK, there wouldn't be as many folks upset, but a good contingent would not be happy that Disney would be spending lavishly on it because it's Frozen in particular, or because they feel a more "classic" film should get that treatment, etc. As you read the posts people make, even though they are in the same direction (anti-Frozen in Maelstrom) a lot of folks are coming at it from very different areas of interest/angles.
Count me in the group that would've been very excited for a 250M attraction in MK or even in DHS since that park could really use the help. Sure it wouldn't be the same as the $450-500M project rumored for Tokyo, but it would've been better than what we're getting. MUCH better.
 

AEfx

Well-Known Member
What do you mean "because of ticket media"? Every guest that enters the park now is given access to FP+.

Yes, that was what I said. That is one category of folks who have a more limited version of FP+, that their ticket media entitles them to.

Overall, though - the entire venture was designed to cater to the Disney Mom's crowd. The general public already was overwhelmed by the amount of planning perceived to be needed for a WDW vacation, and was not asking for more. It's sheer absurdity to most folks that you have to plan dining so far in advance, but scheduling a certain time for a 3-5 minute ride months in advance is a whole new level of crazy. It's segregating guests based on access to electronic devices, and to normal people this level of militaristic planning is the opposite of what they look for in what should be leisure time at a theme park.

If you want evidence of that, just walk up to someone, explain the system, and watch as they look at you like you have three green heads, or simply don't believe you that such a thing even exists once they start laughing at the insanity of it all. Booking restaurants six months in advance is crazy enough to folks in the "real" world (there are maybe three or four restaurants in the entire country outside of WDW that require that sort of thing), but scheduling a three to five minute ride potentially months in advance has no parallel in the level of insanity.
 

Brian Swan

Well-Known Member
I wanted to come in and add some firsthand experience from Sunday that adds likely 0 new information to the discussion and has likely already been noted in the past 10 pages or so. You know, because that is how these kinds of threads work.

I was able to get one last ride on Maelstrom on Sunday, around 3pm. Both the standby line and FP+ lines were back past the entrance to Akershus. Standby was listed at 75 minutes at that point in time.
There was a brief moment when we were outside in line that someone was able to put up a sign in the center window above the entry doors (and attraction sign) that read #savemaelstrom. It was dropped quickly, I'm guessing someone was seen doing it. I didn't see the sign return while I was outside. Our group of us WDWMagic folk all had FP+, so we cruised through the line fairly quickly.

Inside, nearly every person was taking pictures of everything (myself included). The signs, the flags, the boats, the murals, the people. The CMs were posing for pictures in the unload area.

The ride itself was what it always has been. A middling attraction that was an odd mix of reality and fantasy. I snapped a few ride photos that are not very good. We all sat down and stayed through the end of the film, and then watched the entire thing on the next loop. That was always my favorite part of that attraction. Wow was it well outdated. That was one heck of a computer that dude was working on.

We all stopped back by the pavilion on our way out, around 10pm, as we were slowly wandering around a mostly empty WS taking pictures and enjoying a post-meal stroll. The group outside was gathered, the doors were closed, and the last few ride cycles were running. I'm not sure if they were the CM rides, or the last of the guests. We took some pictures and moved along, not joining the group of people hanging around doing whatever it is they were doing outside the closed doors.

It was kind of odd to be hit with some of the feelings of loss and nostalgia that I had, based on the fact that I had no real love for the attraction. Maybe it was making up for not being at all the closings of attractions at Epcot that I really loved, like Horizons, WoM, The Living Seas, Journey into Imagination. Maybe it was knowing that it's being Frozen-afied (talked to a lady and her daughter on the way out of the film after her girl literally cringed when someone started jokingly singing Let It Go, she said her girl usually loves the film, but has recently become very sick of it). Maybe it was the beers and pitcher of sangria.

I feel bad for the Norway pavilion for the next couple of years. Nobody is going to stop there. It's going to go from one day of massive popularity to a couple years of ghost town.

View attachment 68677
As long as the Princess feeding factory remains at Akershus, I doubt Norway will become a ghost town.
 

Brian Swan

Well-Known Member
Yes, that was what I said. That is one category of folks who have a more limited version of FP+, that their ticket media entitles them to.

Overall, though - the entire venture was designed to cater to the Disney Mom's crowd. The general public already was overwhelmed by the amount of planning perceived to be needed for a WDW vacation, and was not asking for more. It's sheer absurdity to most folks that you have to plan dining so far in advance, but scheduling a certain time for a 3-5 minute ride months in advance is a whole new level of crazy. It's segregating guests based on access to electronic devices, and to normal people this level of militaristic planning is the opposite of what they look for in what should be leisure time at a theme park.

If you want evidence of that, just walk up to someone, explain the system, and watch as they look at you like you have three green heads, or simply don't believe you that such a thing even exists once they start laughing at the insanity of it all. Booking restaurants six months in advance is crazy enough to folks in the "real" world (there are maybe three or four restaurants in the entire country outside of WDW that require that sort of thing), but scheduling a three to five minute ride potentially months in advance has no parallel in the level of insanity.
AMEN to everything you said. I am coming to enjoy DLR trips much more than WDW trips, and if I still lived on the West Coast (or even halfway between the two resorts), WDW would be seeing less and less of my money...
 

sshindel

The Epcot Manifesto
As long as the Princess feeding factory remains at Akershus, I doubt Norway will become a ghost town.
Sure. But those people will be like the grasshoppers in Bugs Life:

tumblr_mgdukgDC0b1rkgpqbo1_500.gif
 

lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
The idea that we are at the point where a small makeover is probably in the $50 million range and a big attraction is in the $250 million range is just crazy.there will be no chance for a return to a long term artistic vision and/or quality service so long as Disney has to expend such resources on projects.
 

Mr Anderson

Well-Known Member
This is kind of the perfect storm of Frozen, so to speak. You have folks who think it's a bad film and doesn't deserve attention at all and that it will somehow be irrelevant in a few years (which flies in the face of practically all evidence to the contrary or prior history), you have folks that love the film and are disappointed that it's not getting the deluxe treatment they believe it deserves, and everyone in between (including the folks that don't care what film it is, they simply do not believe any film-related attraction should go into WS).

So right now, there seems to be a perceived common enemy in this project - but if, say, they had announced a 250M attraction to go in MK, there wouldn't be as many folks upset, but a good contingent would not be happy that Disney would be spending lavishly on it because it's Frozen in particular, or because they feel a more "classic" film should get that treatment, etc. As you read the posts people make, even though they are in the same direction (anti-Frozen in Maelstrom) a lot of folks are coming at it from very different areas of interest/angles.
Ah yes, great point. I do not think Frozen will ever become irrelevant. Do I think it will be THIS popular a year from now? No way. Nothing ever stays so hyped up forever without something constantly feeding it. Harry Potter is only still so very popular because there were 7 books followed by (in some instances, run in tandem with) 8 films, some rides, and now two large themed areas at Universal, but even HP isn't as popular as it used to be.

In regards to Frozen, I am actually a combination of several folks you mentioned. I loathe Frozen, yet, seeing as it is a mega-hit beyond Disney's wildest dreams (even though Toy Story 3 almost made just as much... heh), I feel it deserves a built-from-the-ground-up attraction in New Fantasyland, not just a cheap, let's-just-do-this-as-quick-as-we-can overlay. At the same time, I hate that Disney saturated the parks with so much Frozen (there is such a thing as overkill), but now that they've slowed down since the Summer event is over, it will be much more tolerable (still disappointed by the castle lighting show, but I understand the why behind it). And IMO, documentaries aside, rides about feature films do not belong in World Showcase. I think that about sums it up.
 

Mike S

Well-Known Member
The idea that we are at the point where a small makeover is probably in the $50 million range and a big attraction is in the $250 million range is just crazy.there will be no chance for a return to a long term artistic vision and/or quality service so long as Disney has to expend such resources on projects.
Didn't Splash Mountain actually cost less than $100 million when it was built? Incredible how times change.
 

ArtificialArtist

Well-Known Member
This is kind of the perfect storm of Frozen, so to speak. You have folks who think it's a bad film and doesn't deserve attention at all and that it will somehow be irrelevant in a few years (which flies in the face of practically all evidence to the contrary or prior history), you have folks that love the film and are disappointed that it's not getting the deluxe treatment they believe it deserves, and everyone in between (including the folks that don't care what film it is, they simply do not believe any film-related attraction should go into WS).

So right now, there seems to be a perceived common enemy in this project - but if, say, they had announced a 250M attraction to go in MK, there wouldn't be as many folks upset, but a good contingent would not be happy that Disney would be spending lavishly on it because it's Frozen in particular, or because they feel a more "classic" film should get that treatment, etc. As you read the posts people make, even though they are in the same direction (anti-Frozen in Maelstrom) a lot of folks are coming at it from very different areas of interest/angles.



Yeah, as for me, I would have absolutely no problem whatsoever with Frozen
had they chosen to add it to MK Fantasyland.
(Let's not get into whether there would be available space to use or not ^^ )
Would have been a great MK attraction.



But Epcot World Showcase? It undermines its authenticity even further.
I mean the WS pavilions reflect a very narrow, opinionated and subjective view of the represented countries.
Adding Frozen will destroy even the little authencity that's left.


(warning: extreme sarcasm)
The result is, children will storm Epcot,
eventually they will ban all alcohol from the park and Spaceship Earth will turn into Tarzan's Treehouse...


:bookworm:
 

aladdin2007

Well-Known Member
Have you heard the budget? 1. It's 75 mil, but that'll go fast. Remember, 2. they are remodeling almost the whole pavilion, and a M&G is coming too, as I've heard on here. 3. The ride will most likely be just a cheap overlay. I personally don't have high hopes.

1. true it might, as we know imagineering charges how many mil for one sign! but 75 mil is a bigger budget for it than originally planned.

2. sorry but thats incorrect they are not remodeling the whole pavilion. its still going to look like it does now. except for inside the show building of course.

3. im certainly not for frozen or anything, but hearing its going to be pretty nice, not exactly a fly by night thrown together job.
 

BrerJon

Well-Known Member
What do you mean "because of ticket media"? Every guest that enters the park now is given access to FP+.

Many people can't or aren't able to book in advance though. Under the old system, even if you only decided to go to a park while having breakfast one day, you could still get there for opening and have the pick of Fastpasses. Also, rides rarely ran out for the day, because they only gave them on a first come first served time order basis.

Now, if you arrive at the park in the afternoon, there's a good chance you can't get a Fastpass at all for the timeslot you want, as they have all sold out for that period even if there may have been space earlier, because people choose times instead of just being given the next available slot.

Spontaneous guests, or those park hopping and arriving in the afternoon, are at a distinct disadvantage over the class of guests who knows weeks in advance what park they're going to be in on what day, and for how long.
 

Next Big Thing

Well-Known Member
Many people can't or aren't able to book in advance though. Under the old system, even if you only decided to go to a park while having breakfast one day, you could still get there for opening and have the pick of Fastpasses. Also, rides rarely ran out for the day, because they only gave them on a first come first served time order basis.

Now, if you arrive at the park in the afternoon, there's a good chance you can't get a Fastpass at all for the timeslot you want, as they have all sold out for that period even if there may have been space earlier, because people choose times instead of just being given the next available slot.

Spontaneous guests, or those park hopping and arriving in the afternoon, are at a distinct disadvantage over the class of guests who knows weeks in advance what park they're going to be in on what day, and for how long.
I see what he meant now.

In my experience (and i've had a decent amount being a local), there's usually a pretty decent amount of FP+ reservations available day off or even for within the hour. Sometimes it's just luck though (getting on when someone else drops the reservation).
 

Timekeeper

Well-Known Member
There have been times (albeit rare) when I wasn't able to use my FP+ reservation due to last-minute/unforeseen circumstances. I'd hate to think that my unexpected inability to attend a FP-only attraction meant that another guest had to miss out. :(
 

AEfx

Well-Known Member
Spontaneous guests, or those park hopping and arriving in the afternoon, are at a distinct disadvantage over the class of guests who knows weeks in advance what park they're going to be in on what day, and for how long.

That's what I have found interesting - they really seem to expect everyone to just assimilate into this system. I think this could easily be a deterrent to get a Park Hopper, because if you hop to a park mid-day it's a much bigger deal now than it was before. Then again, with the way they have been increasing prices on the Park Hopper option, I'm not so sure they aren't trying to discourage it, because they think it might get folks to spend more days.
 

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