Disney confirms 'Frozen' makeover coming to Epcot's Norway Pavilion

[AEfx]

Again, you are arguing against a straw man you have constructed, rather than making an actual point.

That said, you'd prefer to debate against your straw man concept of a "disney fan" than have a discussion. I get it.

If you don't like being a straw man, stop stuffing your shirt full of hay and talking like a scarecrow.

 

[gmajew]

The average consumer doesn't spend nearly, per capita, what the mature fan does on those parks and experiences. They don't return as often, and they don't keep up with news, because, as you said, they don't care.

The reaction of the general public is "Oh, Frozen, that's nice. Oh, and how do we get to Harry Potter World? Oh, that's not here. Well, I guess we'll just head back to Disney World now that the kid has ridden this Frozen ride...this place is expensive and boring."

If you even get that much out of them. The fact is, the general public has no voice (note, voice, I do not mean influence, I mean vocal statement) in this because the general public DOES NOT CARE.

I disagree that is the reaction.... My friends kids daughters and their moms cannot get enough frozen. Harry Potter excitement really does not begin until 12 or so based on my kids.

The real issue is why cannot both survive? When Star Wars is built will people say what is Harry Potter? No they both will do great! Good up works. Frozen is good IP. People need to realize it. It has a market and it really is good ip.

 

[englanddg]

I disagree that is the reaction.... My friends kids daughters and their moms cannot get enough frozen. Harry Potter excitement really does not begin until 12 or so based on my kids.

The real issue is why cannot both survive? When Star Wars is built will people say what is Harry Potter? No they both will do great! Good up works. Frozen is good IP. People need to realize it. It has a market and it really is good ip.

Sorry, that wasn't the point (I could have made it clearer). I brought up Harry Potter not to emphasize Uni vs Disney, or IP vs IP...rather to emphasize that the average consumer has no real clue what they are getting into, and what attractions are where.

Sorry, as I said, I could have probably made that clearer, it was just the first thing that popped in my head (people looking for Uni attractions at Disney...)

 

[Mike S]

Why does this always happen when Siren posts?

Edit: I FIGURED IT OUT!!!!!!
Like the Sirens of Greek mythology, she lures sailors (us posters) to their doom with her song (posts).

Holy Crap!!!!!!!

 

[AEfx]

Why does this always happen when Siren posts?

Groupthink.

Someone thinks differently, must get attacked, dismissed, eradicated, given a "what for", etc.

There aren't that many of us who can call it what it is - it takes a really tough hide to go against the tide and state opposing beliefs on a site like this.

 

[wm49rs]

Why does this always happen when Siren posts?

If nothing else, she's earning her proverbial keep....

 

[lazyboy97o]

Groupthink.

Someone thinks differently, must get attacked, dismissed, eradicated, given a "what for", etc.

There aren't that many of us who can call it what it is - it takes a really tough hide to go against the tide and state opposing beliefs on a site like this.

A peeve, but groupthink describes a phenomenon related to decision making. It is not just conformity.

 

[jensenrick]

First, point any of those posts to me.

Second, ask the posters why they said that (and if you are aware of Siren, you'll know she loves to do this sort of thing, and kudos to her, she does rile people up well), don't attribute them to me or the myriad of other posters who said no such thing.

Third, the discussion was had well before the aftermath comments you made, and it had nothing to do with people pouncing on her with lowbrow implications.

Again, read the THREAD, not your nitpicks to build your own strawman.

Oh you can't see posts made just a few hours ago, from your ivory tower?
Try 7508 and 7516 for starters.

Why did they say it? Because that's the mentality of posters on this thread, and has been since day one. Anyone who expresses even the tiniest inclining of possibly enjoying this attraction is ridiculed like the fat stuttering kid in 3rd grade.

I have no straw man, because your so-called debate means nothing - I'm talking about the way people with dissenting opinions are treated on this toxic thread. Whether you, personally, are as bad as the rest of the cronies here is irrelevant. This whole thread is a cess pool.

 

[George]

Such a view of creative endeavors is not sustainable. Audiences respond to quality and heart far longer than they do attempts at giving them what they "want," a notion that denies the very notion of a creative. Frozen was not a hit because it was built around piles of market research.

This is a thought I've tried to express from time to time over the years and you just did it very succinctly and well. Disney didn't used to survey or worry about whether an attraction was based on a hot ip (though there is nothing wrong with that). Instead, they made something so killer that the ancillary stuff didn't matter. They've gotten too cautious and moved away from that ethos for the most part. Also, theme parks are there own ip, more important than movies or TV shows. They are around longer and make more money. At some level they need to realize that. It would never occur to the folk who have been working on Inside Out to stick Iron Man in the movie just because he's a popular character.

 

[englanddg]

Oh you can't see posts made just a few hours ago, from your ivory tower?
Try 7508 and 7516 for starters.

Why did they say it? Because that's the mentality of posters on this thread, and has been since day one. Anyone who expresses even the tiniest inclining of possibly enjoying this attraction is ridiculed like the fat stuttering kid in 3rd grade.

I have no straw man, because your so-called debate means nothing - I'm talking about the way people with dissenting opinions are treated on this toxic thread. Whether you, personally, are as bad as the rest of the cronies here is irrelevant. This whole thread is a cess pool.

No. Point those statement to ME. Did I make any of them? If I didn't, you are addressing the wrong person.

And, yes, if you call the whole thread a cesspool (tossing out the babies with the bathwater), you are certainly setting up your straw man. I'm sure @marni1971 will be happy to hear that he's got a toxic attitude and a pack of cronies. So much so he'll probably reveal that his skin is really green, and he really wishes he had ruby slippers.

Yeah, Straw...Man...

But, have fun with that.

 

[wdisney9000]

Oh you can't see posts made just a few hours ago, from your ivory tower?
Try 7508 and 7516 for starters.

Why did they say it? Because that's the mentality of posters on this thread, and has been since day one. Anyone who expresses even the tiniest inclining of possibly enjoying this attraction is ridiculed like the fat stuttering kid in 3rd grade.

I have no straw man, because your so-called debate means nothing - I'm talking about the way people with dissenting opinions are treated on this toxic thread. Whether you, personally, are as bad as the rest of the cronies here is irrelevant. This whole thread is a cess pool.

Not trying to add the cess poolness of the thread but Siren is far from an innocent person getting "attacked". The fact that she is a woman has ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with any of this. The fact that she spews her venom as well as the rest of us does. She has gone through all the classic stages of playing the martyr as well as just flat out trolled. Last time she was posting IIRC she was saying her viewpoint was a shiny, top of the line, cutting edge lamborghini while the other persons was a busted up old pinto that was irrelevant and useless. It was chalk full of gifs and pictures with some colorful adjectives thrown in as well. It was a fun day. that kind of stuff doesnt bother me at all. But if she wants to dish it, she should be prepared to take it. Thats all.

 

[PhotoDave219]

No. Point those statement to ME. Did I make any of them? If I didn't, you are addressing the wrong person.

And, yes, if you call the whole thread a cesspool (tossing out the babies with the bathwater), you are certainly setting up your straw man. I'm sure @marni1971 will be happy to hear that he's got a toxic attitude and a pack of cronies. So much so he'll probably reveal that his skin is really green, and he really wishes he had ruby slippers.

Yeah, Straw...Man...

But, have fun with that.

Do you wanna build a straw man? Come on, I've got some hay.....

 

[RSoxNo1]

This is what some of you folks just cannot wrap your heads around.

YES! WE WOULD ALL LOVE EVERYTHING TO GET A DEDICATED 300M ATTRACTION!

No one has said otherwise. So why constantly folks harp on it like no one agrees is really perplexing.

Saying that was the "alternative" simply is uneducated. Because it's not what Disney does at WDW, it hasn't been for a very long time (if it ever really was aside from initial build-outs, and not even then - hello AK!), and holding on to the fantasy that somehow this will all magically change is naive, at best.

Let's say you really really want a steak dinner. You are starving. You haven't eaten in days. Are you going to spit at the cheeseburger you are offered? It may not be what you want, but it's food - it's sustenance - it's better than going hungry.

Truth be told, if they were putting a $300M Frozen attraction at WDW, at least half these folks would STILL be complaining because "ugh how can they be putting all that money into Frozen, flavor of the month!" Also mostly the same people who complained that Disney didn't have something ready to go when the movie came out. Essentially, no matter what they did with Frozen, many of the same folks would be complaining just as heavily.

This is the groupthink on this - which completely ignores that to the outside world, this is FABULOUS NEWS - Maelstrom has reportedly been among the lowest rated WDW rides in terms of guest satisfaction ever, it's being replace by what sounds like a lovely little ride with some neat effects on a theme that appeals to MILLIONS in ways that Maelstrom never did.

Now, capacity issues? Sure, that's a valid concern. It's going to be an issue. But this community is clearly completely ignoring the fact that this is not "bad news" to anyone but those clinging to rose-colored memories and the old company PR about the company and Epcot in general that they bought into hook, line, and sinker as kids and haven't been able to rationally see for what it was.

Frozen is one of the biggest franchises on the planet. It could have been Hollywood Studios' Cars Land type fix. It also could have helped further shape Fantasyland. It is the type of intellectual property that you spend more than $75 million on the attraction. That's the number by the way. I believe @Lee put it out there, $75 million for shoehorning it into an existing facility and building a meet and greet.

Nothing about this decision is good other than it puts a Frozen ride in Walt Disney World. The IP deserves more and Epcot deserves more. The ride is going to have ridiculous waits as well because of the low capacity. This ride will have long waits and be perceived as a success, but unless they double the capacity you are going to have a ridiculous amount of guest complaints about the ridiculous waits for the attraction.

If they insisted on putting this into the Norway Pavilion, a better option would have been to gut the ride system and make it something that can accommodate 2000+ people an hour.

 

[RSoxNo1]

Groupthink.

Someone thinks differently, must get attacked, dismissed, eradicated, given a "what for", etc.

There aren't that many of us who can call it what it is - it takes a really tough hide to go against the tide and state opposing beliefs on a site like this.

I feel the same things have been said about JimmyThicke and jt04.

 

[PhotoDave219]

I feel the same things have been said about JimmyThicke and jt04.

Similar debating/posting style of all three. Hmmmm. Interesting.

 

[AEfx]

A peeve, but groupthink describes a phenomenon related to decision making. It is not just conformity.

LOL, true - but you have to admit - a good portion of folks who post here do so as if it's life and death - that they are trying to convince some unknown entity to do their bidding with WDW.

 

[englanddg]

LOL, true - but you have to admit - a good portion of folks who post here do so as if it's life and death - that they are trying to convince some unknown entity to do their bidding with WDW.

Bill doody.

Show me ONCE where someone thinks it's going to "ruin" World Showcase attraction specifically.

There you go again, with your straw man.

It won't. Everyone knows that.

For years Disney has wanted to turn the World Showcase into Fanstasyland 2.0., and this is the final nail in the coffin that it will happen.

As YOU said, EPCOT died a long time ago. Why do you think you are intelligent for realizing that rather that addressing the questions brought forth to you? Is it because you can't respond, so you'd rather deflect?

 

[AEfx]

Frozen is one of the biggest franchises on the planet. It could have been Hollywood Studios' Cars Land type fix. It also could have helped further shape Fantasyland. It is the type of intellectual property that you spend more than $75 million on the attraction. That's the number by the way. I believe @Lee put it out there, $75 million for shoehorning it into an existing facility and building a meet and greet.

Nothing about this decision is good other than it puts a Frozen ride in Walt Disney World. The IP deserves more and Epcot deserves more. The ride is going to have ridiculous waits as well because of the low capacity. This ride will have long waits and be perceived as a success, but unless they double the capacity you are going to have a ridiculous amount of guest complaints about the ridiculous waits for the attraction.

If they insisted on putting this into the Norway Pavilion, a better option would have been to gut the ride system and make it something that can accommodate 2000+ people an hour.

I don't disagree with any of that.

As I said, though, if it was some $300M project in Fantasyland, we'd have a good portion of these same folks complaining that they were spending that kind of money on Frozen anyway. I've seen it time and again on these boards. It would be "oh look Disney dumping money into the newest kid on the block - why about X film why isn't that in the parks yet" yadda yadda.

I completely understand the arguments against Frozen. Half of them are to do with "Not my EPCOT!" and the other half are operational.

In any case - it's what is happening. I'm not going to let it affect my enjoyment of what may end up being a fun little ride. If I listened to those same people I'm supposed to think TLM is trash because of what it was because they haven't adjusted their expectations to align with reality.

 

[englanddg]

I don't disagree with any of that.

As I said, though, if it was some $300M project in Fantasyland, we'd have a good portion of these same folks complaining that they were spending that kind of money on Frozen anyway. I've seen it time and again on these boards. It would be "oh look Disney dumping money into the newest kid on the block - why about X film why isn't that in the parks yet" yadda yadda.

I completely understand the arguments against Frozen. Half of them are to do with "Not my EPCOT!" and the other half are operational.

In any case - it's what is happening. I'm not going to let it affect my enjoyment of what may end up being a fun little ride. If I listened to those same people I'm supposed to think TLM is trash because of what it was because they haven't adjusted their expectations to align with reality.

Again, you state they'll hate it, when they have said they wouldn't...and assume that is valid.

"we'd have a good portion of these same folks complaining that they were spending that kind of money on Frozen anyway."

It is not. But, you need that straw man, don't you.

 

[Mike S]

Just gonna say I would've loved a big Frozen expansion in DHS. There was a time where I was actually under the delusion that Disney would have no choice but to go big for a movie that was so successful. That fantasy didn't last very long.