Phicinfan
Well-Known Member
Where's the confusion? I don't think the whole site is hostile, nor the majority that are against the ride. just a select few. Am I missing something again?
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Disney confirms 'Frozen' makeover coming to Epcot's Norway Pavilion
- Thread starter wdwmagic
- Start date
Cesar R M
Well-Known Member
And again... heres the issue:
You claim now that ONLY those who are against the ride in Worldshowcase are "hostile"?
We would love a WELL DONE frozen ride, just not in Epcot's world showcase.
Phicinfan
Well-Known Member
We can agree to disagree then, but I think you are wrong.
First I did mis-read you original post, my mistake and my apologies. No I don't demand any more of you all than was demanded of me or others like me. You don't have to support your opinion. As you state, opinions are just that, and I don't see where you are able to say I have not supported my opinion, as I have, you just don't want to accept them.
To date, the ONLY fact given is Arendelle is not a real world. To which my only response is, I know that, but it is not being changed to Arendelle world, it is an enhancement to the Norway Pavilion.
sedati
Well-Known Member
Mathemagic Land doesn't exist either, but it still works as a tool for teaching about real mathematics. Nor is Donald Duck a mathematician. Disney often uses its artificial creations to guide us through reality.
World Showcase is not the actual countries. It is a hyper-condensed, sanitized and compromised vision forged between the conflicting views of Disney artists, Disney financing, Foreign national propaganda, and Foreign corporate financing.
*I am actually on the fence about this project, and will wait and see how it actually comes together.
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Phicinfan
Well-Known Member
Nope you got me there. I have made it one sided, there have been those FOR the ride who have been hostile, so yes, again I was wrong there.
And yes, I acknowledge a lot of folks here would much prefer a ride in MK and or DHS. Not sure I am not totally in that camp. I am hoping it will be a well done ride regardless, but your point is made.
Phicinfan
Well-Known Member
Not going to go step by step here.
But to be clear I have read every post I have responded to. Unfortunately on some not close enough.
See, i don't want anything spoonfed, nor am I demanding anything, numerous times I am asked to back my opinion up with facts....why? Why can I not just have an opinion, I am no expert, but I do have a right to my opinion. As do you for not wanting the ride. It was no "trap" I just wanted someone to show me one fact of why it doesn't belong, as it is opinion. that is all.
spacemt354
Chili's
The confusion lies in the fact that you've stated your point, yet the only other thing you've added to the conversation is how "hostile" some of the members are. Why do you care? Get away from them then...
You're the one with a penchant to reply to the hostility and call it out as such. Yes, you're missing something. You're missing the fact that you have been the one stirring the pot and calling out members as hostile, instead of simply ignoring it or leaving the conversation.
If you want to play with fire, you shouldn't be surprised if you get burnt.
I get sucked in when it becomes an issue of theming and logic. I have no problem if someone is excited for the Frozen ride. I have no problem if someone hated Maelstrom. It doesnt even bother when a person ties Norway to Frozen. Yes, there are links between the two (albeit very minor ones). Its when a person (not you in particular) steadfastly claims that Frozen IS VERY MUCH taking place in, or so exactly like Norway that it makes PERFECT sense to place it in the Norway pavilion which is part of a larger showcase that OVERALL has a cohesive theme and part of said theme being that the countries represented in it are in fact REAL places and the pavilions meant to display aspects of their VERY REAL culture, not a representation of an animated film that is extremely loosely (IMO) connected to it by small details. Small details can connect anything if you want them too.
I cant help but respond when a person puts logic aside to convince themselves and/or others that an American made movie that takes place in a fantasy world that has magic, is somehow worthy of taking the place of a real country being represented in a larger showcase containing other real countries that are meant to be explored and enjoyed in a different manor than the Magic Kingdom is, which in turns makes the MK more distinctive in what its overall theme is as well.
I dont care if: 'Disney is reacting quickly to a hot IP', 'saving money by using Norway', 'making Epcot more kid friendly', 'Annas dress looks Norwegian', 'Epcot needs something new', blah, blah, blah, blah blaaaaaaah. None of those individually, or even grouped together trump the logic of having a real culture and history be the dominant presence in a pavilion named after that exact same REAL COUNTRY, that is also a key part of a larger environment that makes up the entire second half of the very theme park it presides in.
In the end, I enjoy the back and forth and look forward to the differing views and opinions each day. But as @spacemt354 said, it is suspect when a brand new member comes directly to a thread like this and throws darts and then wants to cry that theyre getting attacked. Mess with the bull, young man. You'll get the horns!
Phicinfan
Well-Known Member
Sorry, just ticks me off seeing folks pick on newbies, and taking them out to the woodshed for no reason. It is all opinion, no facts or such. I just find it a little weird that folks are ranting like this is the end of the world...no pun intended by it.
Cesar R M
Well-Known Member
The issue is, the information you require (solid facts) as been written quite a few times by other posters.
You need to just go back a few pages and check the conversations.
You might also find the reason why We might look hostile to you.
The pattern I mentioned before is there and visible for everyone to see (unless a moderator cleaned everything silently)
*edit*
nevermind, the whole issue was perfectly explained by @wdisney9000 again!
Nick Wilde
Well-Known Member
I don't think they're "targeting you" because you're "a new member." If someone had been here for 3 years, then said, "Frozen is perfect in Norway" they'd be on him/her like a tick on a hound dog. The only people that aren't targeted are the "gods" of the forums. The ones these people seem to worship. like Marni, wdw1974, and others.
Phicinfan
Well-Known Member
No, I have been somewhat belligerent as well. I could claim it was after someone tasked me, but then it becomes a he said they said argument that nets us nothing.
I still think we are arguing semantics though. As to the only issue being the fact Arendelle is not a real world, which it isn't. Still, that alone doesn't preclude this being done, as is obvious as Disney is doing it.
All we can do is sit, wait, and hope they actually put the effort in to really make this a great ride.
Captain Chaos
Well-Known Member
Actually, lazyboy has provide many more facts than just Arendelle is not real world. And the fact that Arendelle is not real world should be the ONLY fact needed to prove Frozen does not being in Norway, which is based on a real world country.
Actually, supporting your opinion stirs much more mature and open dialogue than just sticking your fingers in your ears and not wanting to listen to someone when they 1) have a different opinion than you or 2) ask you to support your opinion. By refusing proves many things, such as 1) not being able to support your opinion; 2) forming your opinion based on utter nonsense; 3) you are trolling; 4) you fall into one of two camps: pixie dusters or doom and gloomers.
Again, and this is not to be a bash on to you or "hostile" as you put it, but you bring this all upon to yourself. You feel you are free to post your opinion, and then you say you don't have to support it. But then you act like an attacked victim when people form their own opinions about you because you fail to support your opinion, or why you feel that way. You right away scream you are being attacked for your opinion. All people want to know is why you feel that way. You failed to state why. You failed to defend your opinion. OK, you don't think you have to, fine. Then stop screaming and crying that you are being attacked for having your opinion. People just want to know your side of things, people want to engage in a mature dialogue or debate. By whining that you are a so-called victim of hostility, you bring the hammer down on to yourself. No one is trying to change your mind. Just like you won't change others. You claim to can see the other side of the argument. But you fail to provide anything substantial to help others see your side. You cry attack and that's it. Your opinion would be respected more if you defended it with legit reasons, and not acting like you are being called out or made fun of.
spacemt354
Chili's
The problem is these facts...concrete facts...have been stated many times throughout the forum. Here are some:
Frozen is not based on Norway.
Frozen is inspired by a Danish fairy tale.
Frozen is an American film.
World Showcase's purpose is to "showcase" actual countries.
Arendelle is a fictional land.
Arendelle is not in Norway.
Anna and Elsa are not historical figures of Norway.
These are all facts. Anything after this is opinion. The problem is, most on the pro-Frozen side of the argument, ignore these facts and believe they are opinions. That's very frustrating to have an educated conversation with someone who is dismissing facts.
You haven't been here very long, but I will tell you something that is not meant to be condescending or hostile, but just as an fyi...
People who come immediately to these types of threads and side with Disney have been around for years. Typically, these people come on very strong with the opposing opinion and will never listen to the other side. There have been a lot of people on this thread who have joined and there first few posts go straight to this thread to claim Frozen belongs.
To long time members...that's suspect. Because this has happened many times before and people get tired of having to deal with it. Perhaps (a very slim chance) that some of these people are innocent and just didn't know any better, but typically that is not the case. And usually, those few who are innocent will show themselves within the next few posts and continue posting in other threads over the coming weeks. They will get over it. How do I know? Because I was one of those members. We all went through a learning curve in some respect.
Phicinfan
Well-Known Member
Okay lets get to the point then.
My opinions on this has been stated over and over again. I see this as an enhancement, a way to expand the Disney universe, into a park with desperate need for help. Is this the perfect fit no. Do I want them to totally get away from the WS theme, no. I see this as an opportunity to have an additional draw for those families with small kids to be more drawn into WS and see not just Disney IP but also the other things of interest of each Pavilion. Similar to how I am okay with the 3 cabillaros and Agent P game. Plus the other M&G's. I understand the distress some have, as this seems a much more major move from the whole WS theme. It is, this is a much bigger move away from it.
I also get Disney is looking for any hook, any , to tie Frozen in where they can, to get more out of it, net a cash grab as some call it, it is just that. My only argument there is, to build a really top notch ride at MK will take forever as they just did a refurb, and DHS rumors are more for Star Wars and Pixar...so where else can they fit it in fast?
Not the best option, and I will be just as disappointed as most if the ride isn't really well done.
sedati
Well-Known Member
Is having a real world culture translated by Disney Imagineering ok, but having a real world culture translated by Disney Animation bad? This is a response to the repetition of Frozen being and American film, seemingly ignoring the fact that Epcot is in America, built by Americans by an American company. Yes the countries had influence, but as none of their desires to be presented in their modern forms won out, it would seem Disney had the strongest say design wise.
* I've actually been on these forums since the mid nineties, though I had a different user name. At that time I was in fact an insider. While I didn't work for Disney, I worked with those who did and often had plans (resorts and downtown and infrastructure only) in my hands years before anything made it's way onto these forums. Like most actual insiders I never released the information I had access to as I didn't want to lose my job.
The only reason I've been posting recently is due Boston currently being tormented by Elsa's wrath.
* I've actually been on these forums since the mid nineties, though I had a different user name. At that time I was in fact an insider. While I didn't work for Disney, I worked with those who did and often had plans (resorts and downtown and infrastructure only) in my hands years before anything made it's way onto these forums. Like most actual insiders I never released the information I had access to as I didn't want to lose my job.
The only reason I've been posting recently is due Boston currently being tormented by Elsa's wrath.
Frozen is the biggest hit Disney has had a in loooong time and I suspect it will have far reaching impact. Frozen will and should make its way to Disney World and multiple attractions would be fine with me. Ultimately, a show at the Studios and a ride in MK would be perfect. What bothers me is the most about this move is that it smacks of laziness. Somewhat Nordic looking movie, big hit, let us shoehorn the thing into EPCOT's Norway pavilion. They could try and revitalize the park in a more creative, cutting edge way like they used to, but now they just don't have the vision. Has anyone provided a link to the comments under the announcement on Disney's heavily moderated (I know this since they immediately delete my nudie pics) facebook, blog page thingy? Here it tis -
https://www.facebook.com/DisneyParksBlog/posts/704899239579225
Exact opposite of overwhelmingly positive response from the serious fans. The Disney I used to know would update the ride so that it was about modern Norwegian culture and industry and make the ride so nice that the fact it wasn't based on ip would be irrelevant in the long term.
https://www.facebook.com/DisneyParksBlog/posts/704899239579225
Exact opposite of overwhelmingly positive response from the serious fans. The Disney I used to know would update the ride so that it was about modern Norwegian culture and industry and make the ride so nice that the fact it wasn't based on ip would be irrelevant in the long term.
At best they are tangentially interpreting Norwegian culture. I know this because I have taken the derivative of Frozen with respect to World Showcase.
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Captain Chaos
Well-Known Member
Thank you. Now every reason you posted here only enhances the argument from those of us who are against Frozen in Norway. And why we feel this is a bad decision on Disney's part. And typical of Disney today, looking only for bottom dollar, heck with guest experience. Doing it the cheapest way possible.