Disney confirms 'Frozen' makeover coming to Epcot's Norway Pavilion

[Rodan75]

It is a misconception to believe that some people who are not in favor of this are fearful of "loosing" Epcot to characters, or that they dont want it to change. Im not mourning Maelstrom or even upset that Mealestrom is gone. I dont hate Frozen either. Emotion has nothing to do with being against the decision of Frozen in Norway, (for me at least). It was a decision born of financial factors due to other poor financial decisions, not guest enhancement, not for kids, not for Epcot. It is the way the company is ran nowadays. I agree companies must adapt over time, but straying so far away from the core principles that you got you there have never worked for any company.

People are excited for a new attraction and i understand that. I truly do. But a bad decision is a bad decision. Putting make up on it and calling it 'marketing research' , 'appealing to kids', or whatever, doesnt change that. Neither does name calling (not saying your doing that). Its a cheap move by Disney and the fans of it dont realize they are getting a lesser product than they deserve or what the company is capable of (see Disney Tokyo Frozen). They only serve to enable more financial based decisions and less based on having a better theme park.

I don't disagree. (BTW - I didn't say 'loosing' did I? ) My broader point is that folks are basing their argument on this topic on that it doesn't fit in with classic Epcot theming (which is true). I believe that if Disney would announce their intentions and identify their view of the theme of WS directly, they would make life easier on everyone.

Of course people are still going to hate some of the decisions, but give folks the opportunity to evaluate this change based on more information. And I'm not accusing everyone who hates the Maelstrom - Frozen change as being locked in the past or emotionally attached to EPCOT 82, but many (not all) of the arguments are based solely on the original theming of WS.

 

[SnarkyMonkey]

I don't get the ownership that some fans seem to feel they have on Disney. Yes, I understand what it is to be a fan. I'm a big one. But I never thought in a million years that Disney should consider my personal opinion on anything and certainly not my feelings. That whole way of thinking just seems weird to me when considering one's relationship to a company. The only time Disney should be concerned about me is if I affect their bottom line. They provide a product. I decide if I want to purchase that product or not. They really owe me nothing, other than to let me into the park for the posted hours if I have purchased a ticket.

ETA: So, as you can see, I have trouble relating to a lot of people here who seem to think Disney should let them in on their plans or even let them have a say.

ETA: Nobody ever talks about how Walmart is letting them down or going in the wrong direction or should inform its visitors of their plans.

 

[wm49rs]

I don't get the ownership that some fans seem to have on Disney. Yes, I understand what it is to be a fan. I'm a big one. But I never thought in a million years that Disney should consider my personal opinion on anything and certainly not my feelings. That whole way of thinking just seems weird to me when considering one's relationship to a company. The only time Disney should be concerned about me is if I affect their bottom line. They provide a product. I decide if I want to purchase that product or not. They really owe me nothing, other than to let me into the park for the posted hours if I have purchased a ticket.

ETA: So, as you can see, I have trouble relating to a lot of people here who seem to think Disney should let them in on their plans or even let them have a say.

Consumers have a right to criticize. And no one here is (obviously) expecting TWDC to change their minds or be impacted in the least by our comments. But this is a discussion forum....

 

[George]

ETA: Nobody ever talks about how Walmart is letting them down or going in the wrong direction or should inform its visitors of their plans.

We're not talking about a Wal-Mart analogue though. I can go to K-Mart or Target. I can't go to some theme park similar to EPCOT at least not until they put in a few more franchises and make it like every other theme park on the planet because they're out of ideas. And these aren't even hard ideas.

A better analogue would be Saturday Night Live. Not a lot of sketch comedy outlets if you like sketch comedy. It has not been funny for x or xx years (depending on who you're talking to), but some people watch every week in hope that they will see that moment of brilliance.

 

[Eric1955]

I don't think it would matter if Disney outlined step by step the new direction they are going in. The oldtimers would still be mourning like an Italian widow. You need only look at things that have long since disappeared that the oldtimers keep crying about. They will never ever get over it.

Oldtimers? You don't have to be old to think a Frozen ride violates the theming of the Norway pavilion. I'm not old enough to have seen Epcot in its glory days, but it's still obvious to me that over the years the vision of Epcot has been lost. I'm not living in the past and I don't want Epcot to return to the way it was in 1982. I believe Epcot needed to change and continues to need change. However, all changes should remain rooted in Epcot's founding principles.

 

[George]

I don't know. Look at the MDE stuff, 2 years ago the debate was so very heated, but folks got it out of their systems and eventually started to buy into it as it went through its implementation phase and only complain about the cost now. The system (mostly) works as designed and Disney followed through on their promise.

This is also different. I've already seen the result of the Nemofication of Duckification of two other bits of EPCOT and I already know I don't like it. I'm sure my kids would've like El Rio del Tiempo and the old "deluge" lady with the unnecessarily foreign accent just as much.

 

[wdisney9000]

I don't get the ownership that some fans seem to feel they have on Disney. Yes, I understand what it is to be a fan. I'm a big one. But I never thought in a million years that Disney should consider my personal opinion on anything and certainly not my feelings. That whole way of thinking just seems weird to me when considering one's relationship to a company. The only time Disney should be concerned about me is if I affect their bottom line. They provide a product. I decide if I want to purchase that product or not. They really owe me nothing, other than to let me into the park for the posted hours if I have purchased a ticket.

ETA: So, as you can see, I have trouble relating to a lot of people here who seem to think Disney should let them in on their plans or even let them have a say.

ETA: Nobody ever talks about how Walmart is letting them down or going in the wrong direction or should inform its visitors of their plans.

Walt Disney did entire episodes on TV to show the world what was being created and the direction they were heading in. It got people excited and he took them along for the journey. But eh, he was old, he Probly didn't know what he was doing.

Disclaimer: I'm not saying this would work nowadays or that they should tell us everything. Just showing that at one point in time the company and the man in charge of it invited you into the process to see what was happening. Eisner did it also. and today you only see Iger at PR events.

 

[Travel Junkie]

ETA: Nobody ever talks about how Walmart is letting them down or going in the wrong direction or should inform its visitors of their plans.

Criticism of Walmart has its own Wikipedia page. Walmart’s business practices are under constant scrutiny regarding any number of topics including as how it treats and pays labor and whether or not it should open in certain cities because of the fear it will run the mom and pop stores out of business. Take a look at any large corporation in this country and there are discussions from the outside world regarding how it conducts business. This is hardly a Disney exclusive thing.

 

[ABQ]

Walt Disney did entire episodes on TV to show the world what was being created and the direction they were heading in. It got people excited and he took them along for the journey. But eh, he was old, he Probly didn't know what he was doing.

Disclaimer: I'm not saying this would work nowadays or that they should tell us everything. Just showing that at one point in time the company and the man in charge of it invited you into the process to see what was happening. Eisner did it also. and today you only see Iger at PR events.

Oh but we get the awesomeness of the DisneyParksBlog with all its insight and insider information.

 

[danlb_2000]

I don't get the ownership that some fans seem to feel they have on Disney. Yes, I understand what it is to be a fan. I'm a big one. But I never thought in a million years that Disney should consider my personal opinion on anything and certainly not my feelings. That whole way of thinking just seems weird to me when considering one's relationship to a company. The only time Disney should be concerned about me is if I affect their bottom line. They provide a product. I decide if I want to purchase that product or not. They really owe me nothing, other than to let me into the park for the posted hours if I have purchased a ticket.

ETA: So, as you can see, I have trouble relating to a lot of people here who seem to think Disney should let them in on their plans or even let them have a say.

ETA: Nobody ever talks about how Walmart is letting them down or going in the wrong direction or should inform its visitors of their plans.

Personally I think companies, Disney or otherwise, should be very concerned about my personal opinion. How the customer feels about the company directly influences the bottom line. I think they owe "me" as a customer everything, because without "me" they would go out of business. Now, note that I put "me" in quotes because I don't expect a company to cater to every whim of every customer, but as a whole they need to listen to the customer. There are also times when responding directly to a single customers concern can also be very valuable. I recently ordered something from a company and the package was damaged due to no fault of the company or even the delivery carrier, yet this company replaced it no questions asked. I had no expectations of them doing that and it cemented me as a loyal customer going forward.

Also, just because a company is making money that doesn't mean they are on the right track to retain that business and by the time the numbers reflect that it may be to late.

 

[danlb_2000]

Interesting permit today for "Norway Attraction Rehab". The contractor is Whiting-Turner the same company doing that field the original Frozen/Maelstrom permit, but the address on this one is 1598 Avenue of the Stars (Maelstrom is 1600) and the expiration is 12/31/2016. I am guessing that this is for the new M&G building and they are just stretching the definition of "attraction rehab".

 

[Cmdr_Crimson]

Careful now, they might rename 'World Showcase' to 'Disney's World Showcase' and fictionalize them all...

It would be more like World Fantasyland Showcase to be exact...

 

[Cesar R M]

They don’t belong in ANY WS pavilion. They belong in lands that focus on fiction.

EXACTLY!

 

[JEANYLASER]

agreed!

 

[George]

Interesting permit today for "Norway Attraction Rehab". The contractor is Whiting-Turner the same company doing that field the original Frozen/Maelstrom permit, but the address on this one is 1598 Avenue of the Stars (Maelstrom is 1600) and the expiration is 12/31/2016. I am guessing that this is for the new M&G building and they are just stretching the definition of "attraction rehab".

I understand the attraction had to lay off the sauce, but this is a bit much.

 

[spacemt354]

Not to sound like an alcoholic or anything but do not really see anything wrong with this. Do not really see this as a downside to the WS in any way. Just because there are educational opportunities doesn't mean everyone needs to take this up. Nothing wrong with enjoying the parks in your own way whatever way that may be as long as it does not negatively impact other guests.

I never made a claim that it was a negative. The point was that the MO of WS has shifted to this type of crowd over the years and diluted the educational aspect that made it a unique theme park innovation.

There's nothing innovative about bar hopping

 

[Cesar R M]

I don't know if this is true. My kids (11 and 9 are unsure of this, in part, because they liked Maelstrom). The 9 year old in particular is a huge Frozen fan. I just hired a new lab tech. He found out I was from Florida and we wound up talking about theme parks. He, asked me, if I had heard about the "Frozen in Norway thing, because it didn't make any sense to him and his wife".

I also have a fundamental disagreement with surveys and the like that everyone is bringing up for two reasons. 1) Disney's surveys don't seem to be completely unbiased and 2) Disney was and is at its best when they doing something so well that you didn't even know you wanted it. "Huh, a ride based on the Twilight Zone. Who cares about that old show? (later in the day) Holy carp on a stick. That was the greatest thing ever."

If they don't have the cajones to maintain EPCOT and try thematically appropriate things just rename the place, "Magic Kingdom II, with a little residual weirdness left over from a prior time spent as a cutting edge place before we made wee wee in our pants if we had to try something a little different because it made us all scared."

Agree on the biased surveys.
There as been plenty of examples shown that the interested parties, skewed the survey papers to never show anything negative.

Imagine them skewing the survey papers to specifically lead the clients to say "put frozen on maelstrom".

 

[Cesar R M]

All Disney cartoons, except a few like Runaway Brain, are American. The other characters in World Showcase, while definitely Anerican versions, were at least created in the represented culture.

If I made a film and put the characters in sombreros, does that make it a Mexican film?

Can you stop for a moment and reading how little sense are you making?

Noone said the Disney cartoons are not "american"(as in made in the USA).
because that's NOT what we're talking about.

 

[H2O_Mouse-Ears]

I never made a claim that it was a negative. The point was that the MO of WS has shifted to this type of crowd over the years and diluted the educational aspect that made it a unique theme park innovation.

There's nothing innovative about bar hopping

Point taken, but this seems to be a chicken or the egg argument. I wonder if the lack of innovative ideas/attractions in WS and Epcot in general have led to this type of crowd/mentality rather than the other way around.

 

[spacemt354]

I don't get the ownership that some fans seem to feel they have on Disney. Yes, I understand what it is to be a fan. I'm a big one. But I never thought in a million years that Disney should consider my personal opinion on anything and certainly not my feelings. That whole way of thinking just seems weird to me when considering one's relationship to a company. The only time Disney should be concerned about me is if I affect their bottom line. They provide a product. I decide if I want to purchase that product or not. They really owe me nothing, other than to let me into the park for the posted hours if I have purchased a ticket.

ETA: So, as you can see, I have trouble relating to a lot of people here who seem to think Disney should let them in on their plans or even let them have a say.

ETA: Nobody ever talks about how Walmart is letting them down or going in the wrong direction or should inform its visitors of their plans.

Please don't take offense to this, but since you have joined, whenever you've posted one of these messages all I can think of is this:

You wonder why you can't relate to people is because your tagline says "Unapologetically a Disney apologist"

That basically wipes out at least 50% of the forum members around these parts from agreeing with anything you say, whether that is fair or not is a whole other question.

The other 50% can see both sides of the discussion, but it's tough to agree with you when you interject with comments like the one I have quoted. Particularly the bold.

As a consumer, a good company allows their customers voices to be heard. We are not a bunch of sheep. This is not a utilitarian dictatorship. If we are unsatisfied with something we have a right to voice our opinion. If Disney wants to listen, it will help their business. If they want to stick their head in the sand and make no adjustments, over time, you are going to lose fans.

How do you think DCA got it's refurb? People complained. Why do you think the MCU is so successful? Because they actually listen to what fans want to see. Fans wanted Hulk/Hulkbuster fight for a long time. Look at the last Avengers trailer.

See companies that interact with their guests and listen tend to stay in business longer than ones who don't. If you truly feel that Disney owes you nothing and that the consumer should simply shut up and be thankful for what's coming, then IMO, you've now lost 95-99% of this site's members.

There are people who wanted Frozen in the parks. Those people got their voices heard. Now it's an entirely different debate whether or not Disney is handling it properly, but the fact that you simply don't understand some Disney fans nor can sympathize with old-time Epcot fans tells me that you're going to have a tough time finding agreement with the majority on this site.

That's not a negative. Not saying having a minority opinion is bad, and I'm not encouraging you to change your stance, but stop acting all surprised. Please stop whining about how you don't understand the mindset of some Disney fans. You've gotten into arguments with people and then have no idea why. Well, apologizes for being frank but, it's because you have your head in the sand...