Disney confirms 'Frozen' makeover coming to Epcot's Norway Pavilion

[baloofigment14]

Never forget the picture of the people who look surprised, but are really looking at nothing.

 

[Tigger1988]

Into the trash heap - where most folks would agree it belongs, up until now, of course, that Norway is holy territory on the level of Cinderella Castle and Carousel of Progress - if you search for discussion, the most discussion about Norway over the past decade has been about that film, and tips and tricks about how to get around having to watch it.

Running through to avoid seeing the movie was the most exciting part of the entire pavilion.

 

[baloofigment14]

Running through to avoid seeing the movie was the most exciting part of the entire pavilion.

I think many people think it is a very nice pavilion to stop by for either the Restaurant, Stave Church, or Maelstrom. I've never heard anyone complain about it until now with Frozen taking over.

 

[Disneyhead'71]

OK AEfx answer these two questions in one word (no exculpatory explanations) and please just copy and paste with your answers from the following text.

1. Are Trolls and Norse Gods a factual aspect of Norwegian History?

2. Are Anna & Elsa in any way represented in Norse history or mythology?

 

[FigmentJedi]

LOL, you can't? Sure seems like a lot of that going around these days. Good to know.

Seriously, though - step back, clear your mind, and imagine WS as it was in 1987. (It's not too difficult, as so little has changed - just minus out Norway). Until then, there were no "supernatural" elements other than a few decorations on buildings - and then an entire attraction is added which is almost entirely based on "supernatural" elements (the lone notable exception the oil rig at the end). At the time, it really did not "fit" into what was there, because folks were expecting/waiting for the "travelogue" style rides that were originally proposed.

Wonders of China, in which your guide was an ancient Chinese poet, a Ghost Host if you will...

El Rio del Tiempo, in which an ancient Aztec priest guy shows you some of his gods partying down in the old temple.

 

[AEfx]

If cultures weren't included if no one from the country paid why were Canada and China built? They didn't have any participant when EPCOT Center opened.

Possibly because they were the most commercially exploitable? I didn't know that - but it actually supports the "giant shopping mall" aspect.

Canada is easy - lots of Canadian tourists come to WDW (at the time, it was probably the most likely country a foreign visitor was from, as it was very expensive to travel here from Europe, unlike now, where it's cheaper for someone from the UK to spend two weeks at WDW than a week at DLP). China is also an easy one - nearly every town in America has a Chinese restaurant, so having a familiar choice for dining makes particular sense. Not to mention at the time Chinese chatchkis were very chic. Likely, they were seen as easily profitable storefronts.

Let me ask you a question, though - if it really wasn't about building a glorified shopping mall - where are all the cultural exhibits? Extensive walk-throughs? The addition of countries to more fully represent world culture?

When I was a kid I too thought WS was the bee's knees. But as an adult, I searched and tried very hard to find this esoteric meaning to it all, and then I became WS-agnostic. I'd believe in some of this stuff if folks could offer any evidence of it existing, but like most things that are faith-based, one cannot. And since we are talking about a creation made of cement and stucco built in a Florida swamp in the 1980's - I just don't feel the need to have to go with the "faith" over it.

Here's what I see as the basic truth - the vast majority of WS has always been about retail and dining space, which I'm sorry, no matter how much you gussy it up - it's still the definition of a mall. The Native American casino's in CT do the same thing - pretty rock work, a little plaque here and there, all a giant housing for retail, dining, and gambling space - if you take out the gambling, you have WS - no one would ever argue that going to an Native American Casino is a cultural experience.

If you really look back, you'll find most of the "cultural" experiences folks believe is now missing was largely due to the fact that it was staffed by people from the host countries and the conversations they had, as well as the entertainment. Before it was Drunky/Festival-town when you actually had time to stand and talk to someone for ten or fifteen minutes because the little computer ticker that tells CM's where to be moment to moment happened.

Unfortunately, that is long gone - yet somehow folks are convinced that it was the place and not the people that made the experience deeper. The loss of entertainment was far, far deeper a cut into this vision of WS - yet because of the online Frozen-backlash (which is only online on sites like this, Frozen is tremendously popular and shows no sign of slowing down, I can't go a day without seeing something Frozen related - heck a local restaurant is advertising Frozen specials and has Anna and Elsa pumpkin/scarecrows in front of their door.

The notion I challenge is that somehow WS was ever in and of itself more than it is - when you take out the casual conversations you used to be able to have regularly with the staff, and the entertainment, there is no more there than is there now - which is a really really well-themed housing for shops and restaurants. I think the reason some folks are so upset about this is that they finally are having to acknowledge the place for what it is more than anything else.

 

[baloofigment14]

Report of a 85 minute wait right now.

 

[Next Big Thing]

Not many people have denied that the ride will be popular. In fact, one of the main concerns is that the capacity of the ride won't be able to handle the crowds it will attract. Add in the M&G and this could be a very bad situation when it opens. You thought Gringotts was bad when it wasn't running at full capacity yet? Just wait cause this ride will have a consistently low capacity from opening that won't get higher later. I really wonder how Disney will handle this cause even using the theater as queue space won't be enough imo.

Technically, the ride will have a higher capacity if rumors are true about load/unload being in the same area and current load area being scene 1.

However, the capacity is still going to be very low for the demand.

 

[Cesar R M]

LOL, you can't? Sure seems like a lot of that going around these days. Good to know.

Seriously, though - step back, clear your mind, and imagine WS as it was in 1987. (It's not too difficult, as so little has changed - just minus out Norway). Until then, there were no "supernatural" elements other than a few decorations on buildings - and then an entire attraction is added which is almost entirely based on "supernatural" elements (the lone notable exception the oil rig at the end). At the time, it really did not "fit" into what was there, because folks were expecting/waiting for the "travelogue" style rides that were originally proposed.

Hmm.. I didnt know that the Chinese dragons existed in real life!
I mean, they are depicted numerous times in the pavilion.

How about Buda Statues? or the FuDogs statues?
Do they really existed?

Then how about the Tengu in the Japan pavilion? Are they real too? Theres statues too!
Would you remove the Poseidon sculpture from Italy pavilion as well?

they are all invented but they are all part of the culture of the nations they were created.

I'm pretty sure that cutting the Norse culture and gods is akin to cutting down down the myths/history and legends of the ancient aztecs/mayans in the Mexican culture.

just sayin'

 

[Next Big Thing]

That simply is not true. But it does further your nonsensical premise that Maelstrom is a loosely based fiction ride being replaced by a loosely based fiction ride. Maelstrom is actually a FACT based ride where everything included is factually a part of Norwegian history and culture. So I have plainly shown that your fiction based replaced by fiction based thingy is patently absurd and factually incorrect. Please don't repeat it again lest we think you're a fricken' moron.

And your "edutainment" take is equally as laughable. You claimed to not have known that trolls and such were part of Norways history even after riding Maelstrom, that explains the Spirit of Norway in the Norwegian Pavilion at Epcot and afterwards didn't understand the gist of the whole pavilion. Proudly proclaiming that "edutainment" doesn't work. Either the Imagineers are idiots, or you are. I will refrain from expressing my opinion on the question.

The ride is based on the "History of mythological Norway" according to wikipedia.(*awaits wikipedia isn't a reliable source joke*)

So while mythology is a part of the history of Norway, it's still fantasy at the end of the day.

 

[AEfx]

OK AEfx answer these two questions in one word (no exculpatory explanations) and please just copy and paste with your answers from the following text.

1. Are Trolls and Norse Gods a factual aspect of Norwegian History?

2. Are Anna & Elsa in any way represented in Norse history or mythology?

Sorry, not falling for your political tricks. If you want me to answer, I will - in the way I think is best, and not in the slanted way you wish. Trying to boil it down to "one word" is absurd - and EXACTLY the symptom of what is going on here - you want things boiled down to sound bites without context in an attempt to dismiss them. Seriously, what you are asking is ridiculous and single-minded.

1. No, they are not - they are part of a larger Nordic fantasy/folklore that is not specific to Norway but in no way factual. If we are to use your assumption that simply because something is old fantasy and that somehow makes it less fantastical, I'd point you to Grimm's Fairy Tales, which in one way or another go back nearly as deep in history (Grimm brothers were just the first to write them down/compile them), which are what most of Disney's animated classics is based upon.

2. Your focus on Anna and Elsa in particular is telling. No, as far as I know, those specific personalities/characters themselves are specifically represented - but they aren't building an Anna & Elsa ride - they are building a FROZEN ride. Frozen, which has many connections to Norway, according to everyone else but some folks on a message board like this.

Norwegian Connections in Frozen

Finding Arendelle (The real locations, including Arendal, that are the basis for the film)

Disney's Frozen inspired by Central Norway (which details the creators journey to Norway to get authentic elements)

Disney's 'Frozen' Frenzy Includes Norway Tourism - Dismiss it if you want, but it's a fact - a lot of people associate the film enough to want to spend thousands of bucks to travel there and see the sites it's based upon

And, just in the interest of not letting it get lost in an avalanche of reality, here is a dissenting opinion - an article who's "sources" are disgruntled Facebook posters, LOL - Walt Disney World Fans Express Frustration. Though even some of them acknowledge it's connections, it's just not "enough" for them.


But, a few folks all agitated on a Disney park message board know more than the rest of the world, I know...I know...LOL. I'm just the evil awful idiot moron who provides a different voice than the knee-jerk generally disgruntled folks who have found a new thing to be disgruntled about - when there are far, far worse things going on at WDW than them putting in this ride which the only projected complaints of guests will be based on how popular it will be. Them's high class problems, as my grandfather would say, LOL.

 

[Mike S]

The ride is based on the "History of mythological Norway" according to wikipedia.(*awaits wikipedia isn't a reliable source joke*)

So while mythology is a part of the history of Norway, it's still fantasy at the end of the day.

Fantasy from the actual history of the country. Frozen is fantasy from California.

 

[Next Big Thing]

Report of a 85 minute wait right now.

Expect this to be a regular thing once the ride reopens.

 

[baloofigment14]

Expect this to be a regular thing once the ride reopens.

That's exactly what I was thinking. The new ride better have a much bigger queue then Maelstrom otherwise Norway will be crammed every day, which is exactly why Frozen doesn't fit in such a small space.

 

[Cesar R M]

Sorry, not falling for your political tricks. If you want me to answer, I will - in the way I think is best, and not in the slanted way you wish. Trying to boil it down to "one word" is absurd - and EXACTLY the symptom of what is going on here - you want things boiled down to sound bites without context in an attempt to dismiss them. Seriously, what you are asking is ridiculous and single-minded.

1. No, they are not - they are part of a larger Nordic fantasy/folklore that is not specific to Norway but in no way factual. If we are to use your assumption that simply because something is old fantasy and that somehow makes it less fantastical, I'd point you to Grimm's Fairy Tales, which in one way or another go back nearly as deep in history (Grimm brothers were just the first to write them down/compile them), which are what most of Disney's animated classics is based upon.

2. Your focus on Anna and Elsa in particular is telling. No, as far as I know, those specific personalities/characters themselves are specifically represented - but they aren't building an Anna & Elsa ride - they are building a FROZEN ride. Frozen, which has many connections to Norway, according to everyone else but some folks on a message board like this.

Norwegian Connections in Frozen

Finding Arendelle (The real locations, including Arendal, that are the basis for the film)

Disney's Frozen inspired by Central Norway (which details the creators journey to Norway to get authentic elements)

Disney's 'Frozen' Frenzy Includes Norway Tourism - Dismiss it if you want, but it's a fact - a lot of people associate the film enough to want to spend thousands of bucks to travel there and see the sites it's based upon

And, just in the interest of not letting it get lost in an avalanche of reality, here is a dissenting opinion - an article who's "sources" are disgruntled Facebook posters, LOL - Walt Disney World Fans Express Frustration. Though even some of them acknowledge it's connections, it's just not "enough" for them.


But, a few folks all agitated on a Disney park message board know more than the rest of the world, I know...I know...LOL. I'm just the evil awful idiot moron who provides a different voice than the knee-jerk generally disgruntled folks who have found a new thing to be disgruntled about - when there are far, far worse things going on at WDW than them putting in this ride which the only projected complaints of guests will be based on how popular it will be. Them's high class problems, as my grandfather would say, LOL.

ahem, didn't one CM that works on the norway pavilion debunked most of these points already?
specifically the "Arendal" link?

I remember he or someone else wrote how Arendal is actually flat with no mountains and hardly fjords like those depicted in the movie. Also saying that the houses are not similar. The houses seen in the movie are of northern Norway.
Only similar thing would be the clothing and the Stavechurch like castle. (and the inside of the church in the coronation scene)


Also, I remember how someone mockingly said that "Disney will now try to make the excuse that Arendelle = Arendal to justify their link on the norway pavilion" a few dozens of pages ago.

 

[Suspirian]

Where was the outrage when they put the Lion King in Africa? (different Park I know, but one with similar goals) Lion King is not based on any African story, just an incredibly popular Disney creation based mostly off of Hamlet. And how can they even call it Africa! Where in the real world is this Harambe! Outrage! Outrage! Iger is cheap!?!

Harambe is a fictional African country so they're free to put whatever they want in there as long as the property fits Harambe's Setting i.e the Lion King. Norway in Epcot is supposed to be an actual representation of the country and its culture. It isn't something Disney came up with themselves like Harambe.

 

[Next Big Thing]

Fantasy from the actual history of the country. Frozen is fantasy from California.

During the process, they actually did take a research trip to Norway, but it doesn't matter. No one is changing anyone's mind here, I said that about 100 pages ago.

I actually would prefer Disney build a new ride for Frozen in DHS or MK. We're getting a ride replacing Maelstrom, nothing can change that. I'm not going to stomp my feet and act butt hurt about it.

If the change has to happen, I just hope the redo is done well. I'm not even thinking about if it fits or not anymore because it doesn't matter. It's coming.

 

[AEfx]

Hmm.. I didnt know that the Chinese dragons existed in real life!
I mean, they are depicted numerous times in the pavilion.

How about Buda Statues? or the FuDogs statues?
Do they really existed?

What part of my acknowledging "decorations" in my post did you miss?

The ENTIRE attraction, one of only two rides in the entirety of World Showcase, was almost entirely based upon fantasy - except for the end where you get dumped outside a creepy oil refinery in the middle of the night?

See, this is why this discussion is just impossible to have - because folks nitpick down to such a level that we aren't even talking about the overall situation and instead on a peeing contest. A simple point - that Maelstrom was different than what the "traditional" WS supposedly was about - which was realistic depictions. That doesn't mean there wasn't a TOUCH of non-realism, in decorations, etc. - but the entire Norway ride is ABOUT these fantastical things.

This isn't a hard concept to grasp, but folks are just being intentionally obtuse in attempt to hide the actual truth - which is that Maelstrom was already "out of theme" in this strict realistic interpretation of World Showcase that folks insist must be maintained.

 

[Cesar R M]

What part of my acknowledging "decorations" in my post did you miss?

The ENTIRE attraction, one of only two rides in the entirety of World Showcase, was almost entirely based upon fantasy - except for the end where you get dumped outside a creepy oil refinery in the middle of the night?

See, this is why this discussion is just impossible to have - because folks nitpick down to such a level that we aren't even talking about the overall situation and instead on a peeing contest. A simple point - that Maelstrom was different than what the "traditional" WS supposedly was about - which was realistic depictions. That doesn't mean there wasn't a TOUCH of non-realism, in decorations, etc. - but the entire Norway ride is ABOUT these fantastical things.

This isn't a hard concept to grasp, but folks are just being intentionally obtuse in attempt to hide the actual truth - which is that Maelstrom was already "out of theme" in this strict realistic interpretation of World Showcase that folks insist must be maintained.

 

[Mike S]

During the process, they actually did take a research trip to Norway, but it doesn't matter. No one is changing anyone's mind here, I said that about 100 pages ago.

I actually would prefer Disney build a new ride for Frozen in DHS or MK. We're getting a ride replacing Maelstrom, nothing can change that. I'm not going to stomp my feet and act butt hurt about it.

If the change has to happen, I just hope the redo is done well. I'm not even thinking about if it fits or not anymore because it doesn't matter. It's coming.

And Pixar took research trips to South America for UP. If a country from South America is added, should it have an UP ride? I know this change is coming and I can't stop it. Doesn't mean I can't vent my frustration.