Disney confirms 'Frozen' makeover coming to Epcot's Norway Pavilion

Cesar R M

Well-Known Member
Hate?

I've never once said I "hated" anything. Have a criticized? Yes. Hated? Nope.

People mistake criticism for hate. Especially when the criticism is pointed at their viewpoint. I don't wish to change anyone's mind. You or @BigTxEars or anyone else who's opinions have "clashed" with mine and others.

This is not a heavyweight title match. It is only that when both side provide evidence to support their argument. Not one-side and the other simply doesn't care to believe it.

People will belittle the significance of the Epcot plaque and sarcastically offer conjecture that people will throw one-liners quoting Epcot ideologies that you don't believe in or don't care to believe ever existed.

Whether or not you or anyone else chooses to believe that world showcase used to (and still does to an extent) stand for something more than a retail-mart is immaterial.

But just because it's immaterial, doesn't mean that it still isn't true. And just because a country's tourism increases due to a film's success does not mean that the film is based on the country. (See New Zealand and Lord of the Rings)

Correlation does not equal causation.

The reason why people are checking out is not because of @Captain Chaos 'a remarks as you claim, but it's actually because people don't want to waste their breath anymore stating facts that people either don't wish to believe or don't care to believe actually existed.

End of story.
I think the group in favour of Frozen are now getting desperate so much ( to try to shoehorn their opinions as facts). That they are relying in going to extremes. Now they claim we're the "haters". HAH!
I bet the next step will be pulling a Godwin's law or other fallacy to disregard opinions.
 

Cesar R M

Well-Known Member
You (and others) have argued WS theme doesn't matter anymore, along with enthusiastically proclaiming you'll buy and eat anything Disney dishes out, highlighted with the :) and then in the next breath argue why Frozen belongs in the Norway pavilion, going against your own proclomations of WS is stangnat and isn't educational and theme doesn't matter, it doesn't have to fit (it's business after all)... which strikes me as arguing for the sake of arguing... and then when confronted with an argument you can't get yourself out of, you lay out the old: "it's just a theme park and it doesn't matter", and complain people should stop responding to you... yet you continue on with the argument, over and over... just to argue.

The bar isn't being moved. Some of you guys are arguing out of both sides of your mouth. One, the park is stagnant and has no identity, so Frozen being placed in Norway doesn't matter... but in fact it does have an identity, and some of us think it matters.

And then some of you turn around and argue that the theme of nations doesn't matter anymore, nor does edutainment, but we get long rants why Frozen does fit Norway.

agree on both accounts.

Fallacies flying everywhere on the other side to try to defend their indefensible side.
I think we've reached a level where the other side just doesn't want to concede in any way and just want to save face just for the sake of "I am totally not wrong".
 

BigTxEars

Well-Known Member
I didn't voice an opinion. Those were facts. Frozen, the story, nor talking snowmen are located in any Norwegian Folklore. You can see multiple cultural influences in the design of Disney animated films of non existent fantasy settings.

The toons running around EPCOT belong to their host country where they have real, cultural significance (at least they exist in the same culture) and origins. I'm still waiting for that Norwegian talking snowman... And Olaf will change the daily operations of WS. All the 5 year old princesses mixing with all the middle-aged, slobbery boozing is going create many fantastically awkward and inappropriate situations. :)

And remember, it's "sophistication", not "education."

And I'll wave to you in the Frozen line. I'm staying away from those crowds like the plague as long as I can help it! ;)

Wait you mean more people are going to be in Norway after the frozen conversion? That would mean that more guest want it than don't want it.....how dare WDW use that as a reason to put it there :)

Where is Donald in Mexican culture again? Is Mulan a beloved Chinese figure in society? Aladdin....I need to read up on my Moroccan history cause I missed him the first time.....well you get the ideal.....A&E as well as little Olaf fit into the Norwegian pavilion as well as they do IMO. Again this move is not upsetting any balance at WS.

If you had a time machine you might be able to transfer WS into what you want it to be today, at this point it's too late for that IMO.
 

BigTxEars

Well-Known Member
I didn't voice an opinion. Those were facts. Frozen, the story, nor talking snowmen are located in any Norwegian Folklore. You can see multiple cultural influences in the design of Disney animated films of non existent fantasy settings.

The toons running around EPCOT belong to their host country where they have real, cultural significance (at least they exist in the same culture) and origins. I'm still waiting for that Norwegian talking snowman... And Olaf will change the daily operations of WS. All the 5 year old princesses mixing with all the middle-aged, slobbery boozing is going create many fantastically awkward and inappropriate situations. :)

And remember, it's "sophistication", not "education."

And I'll wave to you in the Frozen line. I'm staying away from those crowds like the plague as long as I can help it! ;)

Wait you mean more people are going to be in Norway after the frozen conversion? That would mean that more guest want it than don't want it.....how dare WDW use that as a reason to put it there :)

Where is Donald in Mexican culture again? Is Mulan a beloved Chinese figure in society? Aladdin....I need to read up on my Moroccan history cause I missed him the first time.....well you get the ideal.....A&E as well as little Olaf fit into the Norwegian pavilion as well as they do IMO. Again this move is not upsetting any balance at WS.

If you had a time machine you might be able to transfer WS into what you want it to be today, at this point it's too late for that IMO.
 

Cesar R M

Well-Known Member
I'd be curious to know your answers to my above questions.

Because for a refresher... World Showcase "showcases" the 11 nations including their history and culture, as if you are traveling to the actual country. And within each pavilion, there are either attractions or events that provide insight into each culture.

You will probably have to sit down, as the only answer that is provided is always "but..but.. Mickey say Frozen fits!...!" accompanied later by a "I do not care" rebuttal. :bored:

Keep pushing your opinion as fact, but at the end of the day

Irony...
 

spacemt354

Chili's
Your still mixing up the concept that WS is a museum that professionally exhibits historical artifacts and facts.....it's a theme park....ruled by a talking mouse......it's OK with some of us if they have a talking snowman on a ride.....I don't look to a ride to teach myself or my family cultural lessons....I certainly don't expect to learn them from a ride that is shorter than it takes me to get a cup of joe at Starbucks. :)

Considering that you're refusing to answer the questions upfront, I'm going to assume the answer to all of them is "no" and you simply don't want to admit it (or believe it)

Also to your comment above, World Showcase actually *does* showcase professional exhibits and historical artifacts of the countries it represents.

The pavilion of China actually has a museum displaying some of its nation's ancient artifacts. The American Adventure is narrated by Benjamin Franklin and Mark Twain, who tell the tale of American history from the perspectives of the Revolutionary War, Civil War, Industrial Era, the Great Depression and more. And while waiting for the show, you can browse through several American artifacts or listen to the wonderful Voices of Liberty. After walking through the Japanese gardens you will come to castle and a moat, and inside there is a historical display of Japanese culture.

These are just some of the many examples that World Showcase is much more than what you percieve it to be. Just because you don't think you can learn anything in WS (or don't want to) doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. I for one, learn something new on every trip to WS, either reading signs and observing historical artifacts or simply talking to Cast Members who are native to the nations.

So with all that said, I will try again..I could care less what scenery or clothing in Norway provided "inspiration". What I would like to know, what about the story of Frozen, meaning the characters and songs, is based on Norway? I would like to know especially since the fairy-tale that Frozen is "based on" originated from Denmark, not Norway.

It seems like "it's a theme park" and it's "ruled by a talking mouse" are your fallback when you don't have anything substantial to counter with. :)
 

BigTxEars

Well-Known Member
agree on both accounts.

Fallacies flying everywhere on the other side to try to defend their indefensible side.
I think we've reached a level where the other side just doesn't want to concede in any way and just want to save face just for the sake of "I am totally not wrong".

That is the result of a debate based on personal opinion and personal likes and dislikes. Even more so in a evolving issue like the "purpose" of Epcot that has been evolving since before the first shovel hit the dirt in building it. I still would like the original concept to have become reality, I could enjoy living there :)
 

BigTxEars

Well-Known Member
You will probably have to sit down, as the only answer that is provided is always "but..but.. Mickey say Frozen fits!...!" accompanied later by a "I do not care" rebuttal. :bored:



Irony...

Go back and count the "IMOs" in my post.....now do the same for the opposing ones.....let me know what you find :)
 

FigmentJedi

Well-Known Member
From the "Save Maelstrom" Facebook page operator, who attended a D23 Faniversary event
I was at a D23 Fanniversary event and they had a Maelstrom joke followed by the "Don't you mean 'Do you want to build a snowman'?" And the vast majority of the 200+ crowd booed. There were a few cheers, but almost everyone booed. It was a nice feeling. And while it may not mean much in the long run, at the least the message is getting back to the Mouse.
 

misterID

Well-Known Member
Wait you mean more people are going to be in Norway after the frozen conversion? That would mean that more guest want it than don't want it.....how dare WDW use that as a reason to put it there :)

Where is Donald in Mexican culture again? Is Mulan a beloved Chinese figure in society? Aladdin....I need to read up on my Moroccan history cause I missed him the first time.....well you get the ideal.....A&E as well as little Olaf fit into the Norwegian pavilion as well as they do IMO. Again this move is not upsetting any balance at WS.

If you had a time machine you might be able to transfer WS into what you want it to be today, at this point it's too late for that IMO.

I've said from the beginning of this that Frozen would bring in huge crowds... A fact that made this decision even more ridiculous that they never for once considered the Fantasy Land type congestion it's going to create. Another reason this decision was not well thought out.

Donald is part of a ride based on Mexico. The Three Caballeros have a connection to Mexico (Donald was a part of that film) and hispanic culture (if you haven't seen the documentary about how it came about, you should check it out. Very cool insight into Walt Disney's history) where they tour Latin America including Mexico. This actually makes sense. There is an actual connection and real theme to make.

And that's the problem. WDI at least tried to make real connections to the host nation when they made decisions about attractions. In this case, they are not. They don't care. Quick. Cheap. And easy.

I don't need a time machine. I can go today and visit the WS that exists. It's there right now. I still don't understand how people act like it disappeared a long time ago... It's still there. Right now.
 

BigTxEars

Well-Known Member
Considering that you're refusing to answer the questions upfront, I'm going to assume the answer to all of them is "no" and you simply don't want to admit it (or believe it)

Also to your comment above, World Showcase actually *does* showcase professional exhibits and historical artifacts of the countries it represents.

The pavilion of China actually has a museum displaying some of its nation's ancient artifacts. The American Adventure is narrated by Benjamin Franklin and Mark Twain, who tell the tale of American history from the perspectives of the Revolutionary War, Civil War, Industrial Era, the Great Depression and more. And while waiting for the show, you can browse through several American artifacts or listen to the wonderful Voices of Liberty. After walking through the Japanese gardens you will come to castle and a moat, and inside there is a historical display of Japanese culture.

These are just some of the many examples that World Showcase is much more than what you percieve it to be. Just because you don't think you can learn anything in WS (or don't want to) doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. I for one, learn something new on every trip to WS, either reading signs and observing historical artifacts or simply talking to Cast Members who are native to the nations.

So with all that said, I will try again..I could care less what scenery or clothing in Norway provided "inspiration". What I would like to know, what about the story of Frozen, meaning the characters and songs, is based on Norway? I would like to know especially since the fairy-tale that Frozen is "based on" originated from Denmark, not Norway.

It seems like "it's a theme park" and it's "ruled by a talking mouse" are your fallback when you don't have anything substantial to counter with. :)

You don't want an answer, when you get one you just discard it as irrelevant. Those links objectively (i.e. not involved in this thread art all) show the links between the movie and the country, if you don't agree with them that is fine. Like I said everyone can read them and decided for themselves. I think they show a clear link as I has posted.

I also posted it is irrelevant to me. The link between Norway and Frozen has already been made in the mind of a majority of guest going to WDW, rather it's real or percevied that is enough to place it in Norway IMO. So your answer is it belongs in Norway because a majority if guest seem to want it there and Disney wants to put it there. If they are wrong then that will come to light in time.

As soon as Disney starts putting rides and toons in real historical sites let me know and I will have to revelauate my feelings on the issue. Until then I am fine mixing my grumpy giant ducks, talking mice and overly happy snowmen together at WDW.

As far the cultural/historical items at WS I think there are more at EE at AK than at any country in WS. But maybe that is because I am stuck in line looking at them and not walking around stuffing my face with food like I am at WS :)
 

lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
"Frozen has no link to Norway" has been posted in various forms dozens and dozens of times on this thread. The links show that to be in error.
Can anyone else find these places in the links showing where the story is related specifically to Norway? It would seem that instead of just ignoring it that @BigTxEars could easily list the many Norway specific plot points.
 

BigTxEars

Well-Known Member
I've said from the beginning of this that Frozen would bring in huge crowds... A fact that made this decision even more ridiculous that they never for once considered the terror in Fantasy Land type congestion it's going to create. Another reason this decision was not well thought out.

Donald is part of a ride based on Mexico. That hasn't changed. The Three Caballeros have a connection to Mexico (Donald was a part of that film) and hispanic culture (if you haven't seen the documentary about how it came about, you should check it out. Very cool insight into Walt Disney's history) where they tour Latin America including Mexico. This actually makes sense. There is an actual connection and real theme to make.

And that's the problem. WDI at least tried to make real connections to the host nation when they made decisions about attractions. In this case, they are not. They don't care. Quick. Cheap. And easy.

I don't need a time machine. I can go today and visit the WS that exists. It's there right now. I still don't understand how people act like it disappeared a long time ago... It's still there. Right now.

Crowds are going to suck at first but they will die down. I do not think Disney is blind to that fact, I would guess they have or are working on plans. They move crowds as well as anybody in America if not the world IMO.

Donald has as much connection to Mexico as Anna does to Norway IMO, one determined by Disney in an animated movie. I am fine with that connection being enough of a justification to drop a toon in WS.
 

Captain Chaos

Well-Known Member
Is there a dislike button I can hit for this post?
Why cause it is the truth and it kills your argument too? Makes you wake up and realize how wrong you and the others are? Dislike all you want. Just proves you and your kind have no argument. You and your ilk just cannot handle the facts and the truth. You all have had your arguments blown up. Right in your faces.
 
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misterID

Well-Known Member
Crowds are going to suck at first but they will die down. I do not think Disney is blind to that fact, I would guess they have or are working on plans. They move crowds as well as anybody in America if not the world IMO.

Donald has as much connection to Mexico as Anna does to Norway IMO, one determined by Disney in an animated movie. I am fine with that connection being enough of a justification to drop a toon in WS.
How are the crowds going to die down when they haven't invested in building up the area with other rides to pick up the slack? It's going to bring in an onslaught of kids, a demographic that has never been strong nor targeted for WS. WS is an adult section of the park that was designed that way, and was successful. This is bringing a whole new element to WS it hasn't had before and frankly, isn't prepared for. There are no other attractions in the area to bring the kids in to take the heat off of Norway. People are going to go to WS specifically for Frozen, nothing else. There's nowhere else for them to go in the area. It's not like any part of the property.

Ae you suggesting Disney has never underestimated, or figured wrong for their parks? Really?

EDIT: Donald was in a film about exploring Mexican culture and was placed in a ride about exploring Mexican culture. Anna was not in a film that had anything to do with Norway.
 
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Animaniac93-98

Well-Known Member
In The Three Caballeros movie Donald is an American character who learns about Mexican and South American culture throughout the course of the film. The whole premise is each present he opens teaches him another thing. He represents the American movie audience. In the ride, as in the movie, he is shown as an American tourist seeing Mexican sights and places.

It would be one thing if Donald himself was presented as a part of Mexican culture, but he's not.

Gran Fiesta Tour is one of the most faithful translations of film to attraction. Right down to Donald's crazed obsession with human females (and just like in the movie, that's never really explained. Poor Daisy).
 
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