Disney confirms 'Frozen' makeover coming to Epcot's Norway Pavilion

AEfx

Well-Known Member
What does that have to do with your repeated attempts to remove the attraction from the larger experience, which pretty much the characteristic the distinguishes a theme park from an amusement park? Even then, Disney has already said the attraction will focus on the characters and music, not the Norwegian influences.

It's about seeing it for what it is - one fantasy ride out, another in.

You completely disagree with that, I know - which is why continuing to go back and forth on it it a waste of both of our time.

According to you the China Pavilion also includes fantasy architecture, so would Avatar be an even replacement for Reflections of China?

This is the kind of childish nonsense is why this conversation is completely unproductive. "According to (me)?" No, I never said any such thing. Avatar has no elements tying it to China, it's history, or any aspects of it. This is akin to the earlier "Oh, so I guess it's OK to rip down the Smithsonian then!" hyperbole and attempts to take the discussion on an unrelated argument so folks can bury the actual relevant conditions in regards to the Epcot theme park.

Norway has many connections to Frozen, in any case, so again you've made not only an irrelevant point but an incorrect one, as well.

Norwegian Connections in Frozen

Where is Arendelle?
 

lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
It's about seeing it for what it is - one fantasy ride out, another in.

You completely disagree with that, I know - which is why continuing to go back and forth on it it a waste of both of our time.



This is the kind of childish nonsense is why this conversation is completely unproductive. "According to (me)?" No, I never said any such thing. Avatar has no elements tying it to China, it's history, or any aspects of it. This is akin to the earlier "Oh, so I guess it's OK to rip down the Smithsonian then!" hyperbole and attempts to take the discussion on an unrelated argument so folks can bury the actual relevant conditions in regards to the Epcot theme park.

Norway has many connections to Frozen, in any case, so again you've made not only an irrelevant point but an incorrect one, as well.

Norwegian Connections in Frozen

Where is Arendelle?
If the ancient religion of Norway is fantasy then so too is the ancient religion of China. The landscapes of Pandora are based on Chinese landscapes and have resulted in similar tourism increases. The Communist Party of China rose to prominence in rural areas with a philosophy that rejected foreign influence that continues to guide the party today.
 

EPCOTCenterLover

Well-Known Member
They didn't do well when Pixar tried to copyright "Day of the Dead". You cannot copyright a national holiday.

Anyway, ReelFX's version (from Guillermo Del Toro) is out already named BOOK OF LIFE.



I dont see why they would.

Anyone remembers the consecutive identical ideas between movie groups?
Volcano vs Dante's Peak? how about Deep Impact vs Armageddon?
Ants vs. Bugs Life
 

EPCOTCenterLover

Well-Known Member
You are applying what you want/think Epcot to be in your post, which is fine as long as you know that not everyone agrees with you. I would guess that is why you are having a hard time understanding views that differ from yours as being nothing more than someone else opinion and not an assault upon you. Take edutainment for example, you see WS based around that concept and I see it based around retailtainment. Both cases can be made, it just comes done to which point the person thinks is more accurate.
Epcot went from Edutainment to retailtainment. Funny thing is, I spent WAY more money there in the old days when it was focused on future thinking, world culture and education.
 

AEfx

Well-Known Member

That's really interesting. Thanks for sharing the link. That's probably the most interesting thing I've ever read about Avatar, LOL.

That's still LOTR territory, though - backgrounds. Unless there is more? If not, it's really obscure territory as it points out in the article itself, unlike Frozen which has cultural ties aside from background images.

Look, this back and forth is doing nothing but punting jabs at this point - I mean, we've gone on for three posts right here alone debating an absurd concept that doesn't exist. That's because the level of discourse here is happening on two different planes - one where some folks are all amped up to all heck in a furor that I really hate to use such loaded language but the only thing I can compare it to is religious belief, and the other where folks are "eh, it's not ideal, but..." who are being made out to be some Frozen-fanboys when it's certainly not the case (again, there is a lot to this thread but I can't recall one person who has said "YIPEEEE!!!!" over this).

Nowhere have I, or anyone else that I have read, said that this was the BEST option, or the one I would have picked.

Some folks can't comprehend the fact that one can hold that thought, that they could have done better, even MUCH better, yet not believe the theme of Frozen is so "way off base" to associate with Norway, and somehow "ruinous" to Epcot's integrity.

You folks have said it repeatedly yourself (there have been plenty of "End of story." and "Period!" declarations in this thread, as well as "Well, anyone that thinks this isn't a travesty is not a TRUE FAN!" nonsense), there is no middle ground, and everyone who doesn't think this is the end of the World as we know it can't possibly have any good reason for not being totally outraged.

I'm not "Pro-" Frozen in Norway, and again, I don't see many folks who are. I'd much rather they build a 300M attraction somewhere else. But I don't think that the obvious connection the public has embraced about Norway and Frozen (which, in any case no matter what your opinion on how it got there, or even if it's valid, one cannot deny that it now exists) is some "way out crazy" concept, either. I bet if you did some searching, you'd find folks (pejorative or not) suggesting this possibility since the film came out - it may not be what folks like but it wasn't some far-out, from-left-field, blindisde thing, either.

As a side effect, Disney gets a "new" ride experience in 18 months and not five years, and while I will miss Maelstrom - I look forward to seeing what they do. And I cannot deny that it's going to be incredibly popular to park guests, which is why like many of you I share the capacity concerns, and I hope that is addressed in the process. Do I wish instead this was going to be a "journey in a ride over the sights and sounds of Norway" and would that be most appropriate? Yes, but anyone who is not a complete idiot knows that Disney is never going to build rides like that again (the most would be a half-butt Soarin' mini-clone screen-based job).

It's called being reasonable, folks. If you review this thread, you'll see the bar has kept moving and moving - from "this is wrong because characters in Epcot!" to "this is wrong because characters in Epcot attractions" to "this is wrong because characters in Epcot attractions based on fantasy"; from "Frozen has ZERO NONE connection to Norway" to "Frozen has little to do with Norway" to "Frozen doesn't have enough to do with Norway"...

We get it. I get it. I just don't think it's a crazy idea, it's certainly not ideal, and I wish folks could just have the Mickey's to say "I just hate the idea of Frozen in Norway!" instead of winding up the crazy dial with hyperbolic justifications and accusations of "TRAITOR!" should one have a more middle-of-the-road view of this situation in particular.
 

misterID

Well-Known Member
And you are not "keeping on"? Is there a difference with you or me on that I am missing?

The rest of your post is the same thing you have posted before which I have already replied to. It's still not accurate IMO...full of your opinion that you seem to think is facts about what and how I think. I already posted where this week I reacted by canceling ADRs in Norway because they changed the package for dinner. Not the largest thing in the universe, but more substantial than posting rants on the internet I would say. :)
You (and others) have argued WS theme doesn't matter anymore, along with enthusiastically proclaiming you'll buy and eat anything Disney dishes out, highlighted with the :) and then in the next breath argue why Frozen belongs in the Norway pavilion, going against your own proclomations of WS is stangnat and isn't educational and theme doesn't matter, it doesn't have to fit (it's business after all)... which strikes me as arguing for the sake of arguing... and then when confronted with an argument you can't get yourself out of, you lay out the old: "it's just a theme park and it doesn't matter", and complain people should stop responding to you... yet you continue on with the argument, over and over... just to argue.
 
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misterID

Well-Known Member
That's really interesting. Thanks for sharing the link. That's probably the most interesting thing I've ever read about Avatar, LOL.

That's still LOTR territory, though - backgrounds. Unless there is more? If not, it's really obscure territory as it points out in the article itself, unlike Frozen which has cultural ties aside from background images.

Look, this back and forth is doing nothing but punting jabs at this point - I mean, we've gone on for three posts right here alone debating an absurd concept that doesn't exist. That's because the level of discourse here is happening on two different planes - one where some folks are all amped up to all heck in a furor that I really hate to use such loaded language but the only thing I can compare it to is religious belief, and the other where folks are "eh, it's not ideal, but..." who are being made out to be some Frozen-fanboys when it's certainly not the case (again, there is a lot to this thread but I can't recall one person who has said "YIPEEEE!!!!" over this).

Nowhere have I, or anyone else that I have read, said that this was the BEST option, or the one I would have picked.

Some folks can't comprehend the fact that one can hold that thought, that they could have done better, even MUCH better, yet not believe the theme of Frozen is so "way off base" to associate with Norway, and somehow "ruinous" to Epcot's integrity.

You folks have said it repeatedly yourself (there have been plenty of "End of story." and "Period!" declarations in this thread, as well as "Well, anyone that thinks this isn't a travesty is not a TRUE FAN!" nonsense), there is no middle ground, and everyone who doesn't think this is the end of the World as we know it can't possibly have any good reason for not being totally outraged.

I'm not "Pro-" Frozen in Norway, and again, I don't see many folks who are. I'd much rather they build a 300M attraction somewhere else. But I don't think that the obvious connection the public has embraced about Norway and Frozen (which, in any case no matter what your opinion on how it got there, or even if it's valid, one cannot deny that it now exists) is some "way out crazy" concept, either. I bet if you did some searching, you'd find folks (pejorative or not) suggesting this possibility since the film came out - it may not be what folks like but it wasn't some far-out, from-left-field, blindisde thing, either.

As a side effect, Disney gets a "new" ride experience in 18 months and not five years, and while I will miss Maelstrom - I look forward to seeing what they do. And I cannot deny that it's going to be incredibly popular to park guests, which is why like many of you I share the capacity concerns, and I hope that is addressed in the process. Do I wish instead this was going to be a "journey in a ride over the sights and sounds of Norway" and would that be most appropriate? Yes, but anyone who is not a complete idiot knows that Disney is never going to build rides like that again (the most would be a half-butt Soarin' mini-clone screen-based job).

It's called being reasonable, folks. If you review this thread, you'll see the bar has kept moving and moving - from "this is wrong because characters in Epcot!" to "this is wrong because characters in Epcot attractions" to "this is wrong because characters in Epcot attractions based on fantasy"; from "Frozen has ZERO NONE connection to Norway" to "Frozen has little to do with Norway" to "Frozen doesn't have enough to do with Norway"...

We get it. I get it. I just don't think it's a crazy idea, it's certainly not ideal, and I wish folks could just have the Mickey's to say "I just hate the idea of Frozen in Norway!" instead of winding up the crazy dial with hyperbolic justifications and accusations of "TRAITOR!" should one have a more middle-of-the-road view of this situation in particular.
The bar isn't being moved. Some of you guys are arguing out of both sides of your mouth. One, the park is stagnant and has no identity, so Frozen being placed in Norway doesn't matter... but in fact it does have an identity, and some of us think it matters.

And then some of you turn around and argue that the theme of nations doesn't matter anymore, nor does edutainment, but we get long rants why Frozen does fit Norway.
 
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Captain Chaos

Well-Known Member
This is the type of thing that is why most folks have ceased posting in this thread, because you just can't argue with this kind of crazy.

You haven't blown a hole in anything except my patience, which I assume is your goal - to spew rhetoric and ignore the actual facts and instead go all over Robin Hood's forest making declarations of fan nonsense like it's somehow this religious cult - until folks just step away and don't even bother trying to engage a discussion with you because you simply cannot reason with religious furor.

To be honest, in the end it's either you see WS for what it is, and always has been, or you see it for the fantasy in your mind of what it should be - and neither of us is going to convince the other. So we can waste our time going back and forth repeating the same things, or not. At this point there is nothing new to say, you guys are going to keep going bat crap crazy no matter what logic is put before you - and in the end, the same result is going to occur - Maelstrom is closing, Frozen is coming, and there isn't a dang thing either one of us can do about it.

You just mad your argument doesn't hold any water and had a major hole blow into it. Flynn placed your argument into the coffin and lowered it into the ground. I put the dirt on top burying your argument.

@flynnibus bowed out because of YOU. He realized you just cannot have a rational debate with irrational people, such as yourself, BigTexas, daddio, and your ilk. Others have bowed out because of irrational people like Texas, JT, daddio and yourself.

What do I see World Showcase as? A collection of pavilions/attractions which SHOWCASE the real world country which it is meant to represent, giving guests a small little taste of that country's history, culture; whether it be with food, drink, merchandise products, entertainment, ride.

What is World Showcase actually? A collection of pavilions/attractions which SHOWCASE the real world country which it is meant to represent, giving guests a small little taste of that country's history/culture/heritage of the people of that country; whether it be with food, drink, merchandise products, entertainment, and/or a ride. This is what World Showcase is, was and always has been. That is NOT a figment of ANYONE's imagination.

What they are making NORWAY into, and slowly the entire World Showcase, is a dumbed down version of Disney theme park, aiming at the little kid or mentally stunted adult. That is NOT what World Showcase, or Epcot in general was EVER.

What is funny is, you keep blaming the people who are against Frozen going into Norway as being bat crap crazy. Meanwhile, it is your ilk who are going bat crap crazy. Again, your ilk are irrational. You all ask for proof of what World Showcase is/was. You got that proof. You ignore it or try to discredit it cause it blows a hole into your argument.
 

lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
That's still LOTR territory, though - backgrounds. Unless there is more? If not, it's really obscure territory as it points out in the article itself, unlike Frozen which has cultural ties aside from background images.
What cultural ties? The links you keep posting point out aesthetic images. Wearing clothes is hardly a big step beyond background. The one character that is highly reflective of the people is Oaken. How would the plot be significantly altered if moved out of a Norwegian inspired setting? Is the true love between sisters particularly Norwegian? Are conspiring aristocrats particularly Norwegian? Unless you can point to significant story changes that would occur by changing the setting and aesthetic, then Frozen is Norwegian like Lord of the Rings is New Zealander (?) and Avatar is Chinese.
 

BigTxEars

Well-Known Member
You (and others) have argued WS theme doesn't matter anymore, along with enthusiastically proclaiming you'll buy and eat anything Disney dishes out, highlighted with the :) and then in the next breath argue why Frozen belongs in the Norway pavilion, going against your own proclomations of WS is stangnat and isn't educational and theme doesn't matter, so you're being a bit hypocritical here... which seems to be you arguing for the sake of arguing... and then when confronted with an argument you can't get yourself out of, you say ly out the old: it's just a theme park and it doesn't matter, and complain people should stop responding to you... yet you continue on with the argument, over and over... just to argue.

Where did I say I would buy or eat anything Disney dishes out? Heck I gave you an example of where this week I canceled a $250-$300 meal at Norway in WS because I did not like what they "were dishing out" for the price.

Why do :) bother you so much. This is not a life or death subject, I find WDW a fun place and thus the :)
If you want to wallow in some type of self imposed misery and not have any fun talking about WDW then do so, I choose not too.

I never said that theming does not matter, in fact I posted a number of times that WS is a very well themed retail area. And that Olaf was not going to comprise that theming. Now if theming did not matter to me why would I posted that, again several times....

And yes if someone does not want to read what I post they should feel free to either ignore me or not respond. How am I responsible for them not doing so? If they choose to respond to me then they are choosing to engage in conversation....how am I able to force people into a debate on the internet? That a silly comment on your part....

Frozen belongs in Norway because Mickey says it does, the public accepts it there and as posted earlier in the thread the movie does indeed have links to Norway. As posted earlier:

http://filmdice.wordpress.com/2014/03/01/norwegian-connections-in-frozen/
http://findingarendelle.tumblr.com/Norway

Are those links incorrect? I would love to see the counter points to them if you can provide it.
 

RSoxNo1

Well-Known Member
Are you and said person DEAF? Because obviously you haven't listened to a single word of the narration of the ride.

Your justification is that trolls make it a fantasy ride... the rest of the ride scenes all include representations of the nordic ancestors, the artic, and the modern oil industry. What if any of those things are 'fantasy'?

Honestly it seems your opinion is fed by self-centered ignorance that a pagan religion is 'fantasy' - which is why the Vatican analogy works. Just because someone else's religion includes gods that have been referenced in tons of fiction doesn't make their religion itself fiction.

Trolls are part of the folklore... just like Cowboys/Indians, larger than life heros, religious miracles, and more.
I feel dirty even having to explain the difference between folklore and it's significance to a culture vs fantasy fiction.



The points aren't ignored - they are aren't rehashed because they are garbage.

#1 - If you just want an attraction on an island... you are just steering the ship into the rocks. Sure you may enjoy success now.. but you are still heading towards the rocks.. and you will destroy what you are driving. Disney theme parks are not what they are because they built a handful of great attractions on their own! If you are too short-sighted to see that... it's probably why you aren't responsible for a long term successful disruptive product.

#2 - Do we really need to explain the difference between 'association' and 'being about norway' AGAIN? Do you need the idea of MARKETING explained to you and what exposures mean? Frozen's success brings visibility and interest to the topic of Norway - that doesn't make it about Norway, it's culture or people.

Unless you really think Captain America:Winter Solider should be incorporated into our school curriculum as a lesson in American History and DC geography.

So these points aren't ignored - they are dismissed.




You really think people label other people's religion and presentations about them as 'fantasy'??

I'm starting to feel that idiom about being dragged down to their level coming on...
Excellent post. Every World Showcase attraction makes a proclamation about how the people of a particular country are what make them great. Now it's fictional characters that make Norway great, that seems very lazy.
 

spacemt354

Chili's
Frozen belongs in Norway because Mickey says it does, the public accepts it there and as posted earlier in the thread the movie does indeed have links to Norway. As posted earlier:

http://filmdice.wordpress.com/2014/03/01/norwegian-connections-in-frozen/
http://findingarendelle.tumblr.com/Norway

Are those links incorrect? I would love to see the counter points to them if you can provide it.

You're simply looking at this with blinders on and you're not understanding the big picture. (Probably because you don't want to)

The ride description for Frozen claimed that it would be based on the characters and songs from the film. Similar to a dark ride in Fantasyland that depicts the story in a shortened form.

What about the story of Frozen depicts Norwegian history and/or culture? Was Arendelle a real place? Was there a talking snowman named Olaf? Was the Snow Queen fairy-tale created in Norway? (Or was it Denmark? :))

Nobody has disputed the inaccuracy of the links you have provided numerous times. All people are saying is just because something is "inspired by" a nation, doesn't not qualify it as "based on" a nation. If a ride depicting the film Frozen is placed in Norway, the film should be "based on" the country of Norway.

I'd be curious to know your answers to my above questions.

Because for a refresher... World Showcase "showcases" the 11 nations including their history and culture, as if you are traveling to the actual country. And within each pavilion, there are either attractions or events that provide insight into each culture.

Just because you only use World Showcase as a retail/eating venue, doesn't magically make that what World Showcase was meant to be :)
 

PhotoDave219

Well-Known Member
You're simply looking at this with blinders on and you're not understanding the big picture. (Probably because you don't want to)

The ride description for Frozen claimed that it would be based on the characters and songs from the film. Similar to a dark ride in Fantasyland that depicts the story in a shortened form.

What about the story of Frozen depicts Norwegian history and/or culture? Was Arendelle a real place? Was there a talking snowman named Olaf? Was the Snow Queen fairy-tale created in Norway? (Or was it Denmark? :))

Nobody has disputed the inaccuracy of the links you have provided numerous times. All people are saying is just because something is "inspired by" a nation, doesn't not qualify it as "based on" a nation. If a ride depicting the film Frozen is placed in Norway, the film should be "based on" the country of Norway.

I'd be curious to know your answers to my above questions.

Because for a refresher... World Showcase "showcases" the 11 nations including their history and culture, as if you are traveling to the actual country. And within each pavilion, there are either attractions or events that provide insight into each culture.

Just because you only use World Showcase as a retail/eating venue, doesn't magically make that what World Showcase was meant to be :)

People are selfish. They want the parks to be how THEY want them.

I oppose this change if only because I fear it ruins the cultural aspects of the world showcase. However theres nothing i can do about it.
 

misterID

Well-Known Member
Where did I say I would buy or eat anything Disney dishes out? Heck I gave you an example of where this week I canceled a $250-$300 meal at Norway in WS because I did not like what they "were dishing out" for the price.

Why do :) bother you so much. This is not a life or death subject, I find WDW a fun place and thus the :)
If you want to wallow in some type of self imposed misery and not have any fun talking about WDW then do so, I choose not too.

I never said that theming does not matter, in fact I posted a number of times that WS is a very well themed retail area. And that Olaf was not going to comprise that theming. Now if theming did not matter to me why would I posted that, again several times....

And yes if someone does not want to read what I post they should feel free to either ignore me or not respond. How am I responsible for them not doing so? If they choose to respond to me then they are choosing to engage in conversation....how am I able to force people into a debate on the internet? That a silly comment on your part....

Frozen belongs in Norway because Mickey says it does, the public accepts it there and as posted earlier in the thread the movie does indeed have links to Norway. As posted earlier:

http://filmdice.wordpress.com/2014/03/01/norwegian-connections-in-frozen/
http://findingarendelle.tumblr.com/Norway

Are those links incorrect? I would love to see the counter points to them if you can provide it.
See, this entire post is about you... just sayin.

The smilies were pointed out as how enthusiastically you kept stating about buying and eating what disney dishes out. I have no problem with you having your own standards, I'm glad to hear it... again why this was brought into the debate at all... I have no idea.

And... again... EPCOT and WS current theming never seemed to matter to you before as you kept saying "edutainment" was outdated... and then didn't exist anymore... when it fact it does. A lot of you guys seem to not like the theme, but whatever.

And why should I counter any point that you've stated many times doesn't matter? It stands the same. It has nothing to do with Norway. Finding architectural similarities... okay. There you go. It's still not about Norway.

Star Wars (a fantasy set in an imaginary world, like Lord Of The Rings and Frozen) was based on many cultures, specifically Samurais in Japan. It still doesn't belong in WS. Matter of fact, going by your evidence LOTR has more of place in WS than Frozen... and yet it doesn't belong there either.
 

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