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Disney backs out of National Harbor
- Thread starter brettf22
- Start date
lazyboy97o
Well-Known Member
The most authoritative source of the idea of Disney wanting Flushing Meadows I have ever seen is in The Power Broker: Robert Moses and the Fall of New York by Robert Caro. Caro refutes the story that Moses asked Disney to take over the World's Fair site and turn it into a second Disneyland, arguing that Moses had wanted to turn Flushing Meadows into a new "central park" for the entire city since the 1939-1940 Worlds Fair.
I think neither wanted a Disneyland on the site. The story makes more sense as a misinterpretation of the Disney-created pavilions, Moses wanting Mr. Lincoln, some of the attractions moving to Disneyland and Freedomland, a short-lived theme park in the Bronx that was designed by C.V. Wood.
I guess it comes down to the area and those who know. Many people who are local and somewhat local, myself included, never expected the project to actually be built. There is nothing appealing in DC or its surrounding area outside of The Smithsonian complex, Monuments, and Arlington Cemetery. None of that would be a draw for visiting the resort outside of those who are not after thrills and enjoy educational items. It would promote theme park junkies to venture into Baltimore for Six Flags as well. The day I heard about the purchase I wondered how long before it would get canned. The crime rate so close to it is insane.
Mickey_777
Well-Known Member
I'll admit I was excited to see what Disney would do here so close to home. I knew they'd never really build an actual House of Presidents or American Adventure style attraction but I reserved some hope. I was thinking maybe, just maybe, they'd hook us up with something World of Disney/DTD-esque in terms of shopping and maybe M&G/character meals with the "gang" sailing with you on a ferry that took you downtown to see the sights. It would have been a nice place for my wife and I to go for a weekend.
It sucks that's its not gonna happen now but they know why they're pulling the plug now. You're right about how the crime nearby is rediculous (I avoid Maryland as much as I can) and how the Disney crowd may not be all that into Museums and such. Families with kids especially would have had problems getting the younger ones to enjoy the sites while asking "Where's Mickey? You said we were going to Disney." If I were a kid, I'd be super upset if you took me on vacation to see "old stuff". There are a couple spots tailored for kids in DC but they're in the minority. Plus navigating DC on foot is murder. Because all buildings in the District must be shorter than the Washington Monument, they're built long and wide. Finding a bathroom, shade, or a shop to just browse (and get out of either oppresive heat or cold) can be difficult and requires A LOT of walking. This would have quickly become unpopular with families I would imagine. WDW on foot is a breeze by camparison. Plus I know that the Gaylord National that's already built there brings in all the Dreamworks characters for M&G and character meals for the holidays. Maybe Disney looked into that and saw it wasn't that popular either.
prberk
Well-Known Member
Gaylord National (same owner as the Opryland Hotel in Nashville and Gaylord Palms in Orlando) seems to be doing well at National Harbor... and a good Disney competitor, which also would provide more diverisity at the site beyond normal DC tourism.
http://www.gaylordhotels.com/gaylor...tomac/index.html?intcmp=gp-pl=topNav-cid=COTP
But I do believe that, in order to compete there, Disney would have had to step up its game on in-hotel entertainment and shopping (such as is expected for conventions), without relying on theme parks. It could do it if it tried. They need to let the "Resorts" side of "Parks and Resorts" start to fluorish on its own and think outside of the box for non-theme-park locations. They could easily have some convention- and entertainment- centered resorts. But this mirrors the same discussion that requires Disney Parks and Resorts overall to stop relying only on "character" and "magical" experiences and more on luxury and full-service and entertainment experiences that used to make them a Travel Channel and Food Network staple... Think along the lines of the Polynesian Luau and the Hoop-de-Doo Revue, and of the spas on property, and fine restaurants, non of which have anything to do with "magical character experiences..."
Paul
http://www.gaylordhotels.com/gaylor...tomac/index.html?intcmp=gp-pl=topNav-cid=COTP
But I do believe that, in order to compete there, Disney would have had to step up its game on in-hotel entertainment and shopping (such as is expected for conventions), without relying on theme parks. It could do it if it tried. They need to let the "Resorts" side of "Parks and Resorts" start to fluorish on its own and think outside of the box for non-theme-park locations. They could easily have some convention- and entertainment- centered resorts. But this mirrors the same discussion that requires Disney Parks and Resorts overall to stop relying only on "character" and "magical" experiences and more on luxury and full-service and entertainment experiences that used to make them a Travel Channel and Food Network staple... Think along the lines of the Polynesian Luau and the Hoop-de-Doo Revue, and of the spas on property, and fine restaurants, non of which have anything to do with "magical character experiences..."
Paul
WDWFanatic
Active Member
Such a downer, Im only 20 minutes from there and was looking foward to it.
TP2000
Well-Known Member
Agreed. But that would require a major cultural shift for Disney operated hotels, and would also require a bit of extra investment. I will try and be kind, but the "Deluxe" hotels at WDW and Disneyland are not that great at customer service. They have been coasting on fumes at those expensive hotels for at least a decade now, and many hotels in any big city are now far beyond Disney's level of customer service, or lack thereof.
Disney management tries to cover this up by relying on the original WDI architecture long since paid for and amortized, by shoving Mickey and Goofy into the lobby, and by playing Disney DVD's on a TV set near the check-in desk for kiddies, and most famously by getting $10 an hour Cast Members to end every interaction (good, bad, or mediocre) with a canned "Have a MAGICAL day!" . :hurl:
Those are cutesy yet cheap concepts, but they don't truly gloss over the fact that even the Deluxe Disney properties are only offering service and amenities on par with any decent Sheraton or Hilton, and don't even approach the service level of a Ritz Carlton, Four Seasons, or other top-notch property in a major city or resort area.
See the recent conversation here about how Disney's concierge staff working the "Concierge Level" hotel floors aren't actually concierges and can not perform the most basic concierge tasks. Instead, the "concierges" in Disney's Deluxe properties are merely glorified telephone operators who started their career as a perky ride operator or tour guide and transferred to the Concierge Level to get out of the heat. The last concierge CM I interacted with at the Grand Californian couldn't even make a cup of coffee, let alone be a true concierge.
Disney just doesn't have it in them right now to deliver truly world-class customer service. It's probably for the best they don't expand their hotel business away from the theme parks. At the prices Disney wants to charge for their hotels, they just can't stand up to the competition when they get more than five miles from the nearest E Ticket.
Nothing appealling?
OK, I'm not debating the relative merits of Disney building at National Harbor. But I can't just let this statement stand. There may not be anything appealing to you outside those items you mentioned. But, off the top of my head, I think the Spy Museum, Crime & Punishment Museum, Ford's Theater, Kennedy Center, National Building Museum, Newseum, Cherry Blossoms/Tidal Basin, National Cathedral, the Capitol, The Supreme Court, Library of Congress, Bureau of Engraving, Holocaust Museum, National Zoo, Eastern Market, Mount Vernon, The Pentagon, Great Falls, and various Civil War battlefields/sites are pretty appealing. And outside the Gaylord and other shops/dining at National Harbor, the National Children's Museum is opening in 2013, which I think we could agree, is right in Disney's target demographic.
Just to clarify, Six Flags is closer to the National Harbor (19 miles) than it is to Baltimore (40 miles).
If you think the PG County crime rate is bad, you should see the crime rate around Disney World.
PG County crime rate is 5,604 crimes per 100,000 residents (2009)
Orlando crime rate is 10431 crimes per 100,000 residents (2006)
OK, I'm not debating the relative merits of Disney building at National Harbor. But I can't just let this statement stand. There may not be anything appealing to you outside those items you mentioned. But, off the top of my head, I think the Spy Museum, Crime & Punishment Museum, Ford's Theater, Kennedy Center, National Building Museum, Newseum, Cherry Blossoms/Tidal Basin, National Cathedral, the Capitol, The Supreme Court, Library of Congress, Bureau of Engraving, Holocaust Museum, National Zoo, Eastern Market, Mount Vernon, The Pentagon, Great Falls, and various Civil War battlefields/sites are pretty appealing. And outside the Gaylord and other shops/dining at National Harbor, the National Children's Museum is opening in 2013, which I think we could agree, is right in Disney's target demographic.
Just to clarify, Six Flags is closer to the National Harbor (19 miles) than it is to Baltimore (40 miles).
If you think the PG County crime rate is bad, you should see the crime rate around Disney World.
PG County crime rate is 5,604 crimes per 100,000 residents (2009)
Orlando crime rate is 10431 crimes per 100,000 residents (2006)
yankspy
Well-Known Member
I just went to see ICE today. They have extended packages this year with Character meals and all but they still need to draw more. My friend works at the Gaylord and besides the weekends it has not been as busy this year.
c-one
Well-Known Member
Agreed. But that would require a major cultural shift for Disney operated hotels, and would also require a bit of extra investment. I will try and be kind, but the "Deluxe" hotels at WDW and Disneyland are not that great at customer service. They have been coasting on fumes at those expensive hotels for at least a decade now, and many hotels in any big city are now far beyond Disney's level of customer service, or lack thereof.
Disney management tries to cover this up by relying on the original WDI architecture long since paid for and amortized, by shoving Mickey and Goofy into the lobby, and by playing Disney DVD's on a TV set near the check-in desk for kiddies, and most famously by getting $10 an hour Cast Members to end every interaction (good, bad, or mediocre) with a canned "Have a MAGICAL day!" . :hurl:
Those are cutesy yet cheap concepts, but they don't truly gloss over the fact that even the Deluxe Disney properties are only offering service and amenities on par with any decent Sheraton or Hilton, and don't even approach the service level of a Ritz Carlton, Four Seasons, or other top-notch property in a major city or resort area.
See the recent conversation here about how Disney's concierge staff working the "Concierge Level" hotel floors aren't actually concierges and can not perform the most basic concierge tasks. Instead, the "concierges" in Disney's Deluxe properties are merely glorified telephone operators who started their career as a perky ride operator or tour guide and transferred to the Concierge Level to get out of the heat. The last concierge CM I interacted with at the Grand Californian couldn't even make a cup of coffee, let alone be a true concierge.
Disney just doesn't have it in them right now to deliver truly world-class customer service. It's probably for the best they don't expand their hotel business away from the theme parks. At the prices Disney wants to charge for their hotels, they just can't stand up to the competition when they get more than five miles from the nearest E Ticket.
You've both nailed it, I think. At the risk of rehashing the "Disney World needs more for adults" discussion, these new off-property resort experiences have to be truly innovative and different from the current crop of offerings. I have faith that WDI could pull it off, it's the managers and bean-counters that are the question.
Having said that, a DC-area resort would have to be very, very different to be successful, I think. Even if it was in an actually decent location. Not convinced the DC market is right for this project.
c-one
Well-Known Member
Not really convinced of this argument. It's a very different type of vacation, you're right about that, but DC tourist sites are always packed with families with kids. And the walking is no worse than a day at the parks.
Mouse Detective
Well-Known Member
I think it was truly a situation where DVC felt it had to operate in more locations to make selling units at Disney and the other locations more attractive. And as someone stated, had Hawaii sales gone through the roof, the plug would not have been pulled on National Harbor which is not really a bad location with Gaylord there. I think the mistake was Hawaii. Times are tough, airfares with fuel surcharges are outrageous, the volume of people you need to sell every unit 51 weeks of the year is just not there, especially at Disney prices!
I have to assume National Harbor was well-researched. The economy was already bad when it was announced. What changed in these past 2+ years was Aulani opened mostly empty.
I have to assume National Harbor was well-researched. The economy was already bad when it was announced. What changed in these past 2+ years was Aulani opened mostly empty.
"Disney acquired the property — 15 acres in a development called National Harbor, just outside the District of Columbia — in May 2009 as part of a strategy to develop standalone hotels or smaller, niche theme parks in markets beyond its well-known theme-park resorts in Orlando and Anaheim, Calif.
But the plans never progressed beyond a vague outline for a 500-room "resort hotel for families and others visiting the national capital region."
In the interim, Disney finished building a roughly $850 million hotel and time-share resort called Aulani on the Hawaiian island of Oahu. That resort, which opened this summer, has had a rocky start; Disney was forced to suspend time-share sales there for about two months after discovering an error in financial planning for the project.
Disney has been under some pressure from analysts and investors to curb capital spending following a wave of construction projects that include, among other things, a $950 million cruise ship that began sailing this year and another that will launch early next year; Aulani; a $1.1 billion makeover to the Disney California Adventure theme park; $1 billion or more in technology-infrastructure upgrades at Walt Disney World; and preliminary construction of the $4.4 billion Shanghai Disneyland Resort in China.
Total capital spending at Walt Disney Parks and Resorts ballooned 78 percent during Disney's just-concluded 2011 fiscal year, from $1.5 billion to $2.7 billion."
per Orland Sentinal
But the plans never progressed beyond a vague outline for a 500-room "resort hotel for families and others visiting the national capital region."
In the interim, Disney finished building a roughly $850 million hotel and time-share resort called Aulani on the Hawaiian island of Oahu. That resort, which opened this summer, has had a rocky start; Disney was forced to suspend time-share sales there for about two months after discovering an error in financial planning for the project.
Disney has been under some pressure from analysts and investors to curb capital spending following a wave of construction projects that include, among other things, a $950 million cruise ship that began sailing this year and another that will launch early next year; Aulani; a $1.1 billion makeover to the Disney California Adventure theme park; $1 billion or more in technology-infrastructure upgrades at Walt Disney World; and preliminary construction of the $4.4 billion Shanghai Disneyland Resort in China.
Total capital spending at Walt Disney Parks and Resorts ballooned 78 percent during Disney's just-concluded 2011 fiscal year, from $1.5 billion to $2.7 billion."
per Orland Sentinal
Mickey_777
Well-Known Member
At the least the parks have something different and stuff to check out around every corner. DC is like trekking all day long in a maze of large rectangle federal buildings with no shade to be found anywhere. I live here but rarely spend more than a few hours downtown when I do "toursisty" things.
Aurora79
Member
I live right outside of DC and I'm sorry to say but The National Harbor is pretty ghetto. I have been there twice since it opened and both times it was like a ghost town. I appreciate developers trying to give PG county a boost by adding jobs and whatnot, but I don't think the idea of the harbor as a destination really caught on, at least for locals. I don't blame Disney for pulling out.
toolsnspools
Well-Known Member
National Harbor was a quick bet by Disney that if that location really took off, they wanted to have a plot there to capitalize. Since it has created less than expected results, they can re-sell the property and move on to the next potential idea.
Their problem with off-site hotels remains the same. They are offering a $129/night hotel experience for $200+/night, and the only place they can get away with that is around the parks where they can offer the whole experience for one price. If they want to get serious about off-site "destinations", they either need to figure out how to do it at cut rate room prices, or break from the Disney name and create experiences that are really worth the higher prices. I think they could pull off a Disney Elite brand, but that might detract from the current interest in the "Deluxe Resort Hotels" they have at the parks now. They certainly wouldn't fit in the current DVC model, unless the were in a different points system than what exists today.
Their problem with off-site hotels remains the same. They are offering a $129/night hotel experience for $200+/night, and the only place they can get away with that is around the parks where they can offer the whole experience for one price. If they want to get serious about off-site "destinations", they either need to figure out how to do it at cut rate room prices, or break from the Disney name and create experiences that are really worth the higher prices. I think they could pull off a Disney Elite brand, but that might detract from the current interest in the "Deluxe Resort Hotels" they have at the parks now. They certainly wouldn't fit in the current DVC model, unless the were in a different points system than what exists today.
Duckberg
Active Member
SMART move by Disney, this place has terrible access with a deadsville :hurl: vibe! Also went there two times, would never go back. Watching grass grow is more exciting than scene they "tried" to create with NH! :brick:
FireChiefGoofy
Well-Known Member
I am very disappointed. We are huge Disney fans, DVC owners, and live about two hours from Washington, DC. National Harbor is only a short drive up the freeway and knowing Disney, they probably would have run a shuttle into the city for those who didn't drive or rent a car. DW and I drove down over the summer to see the site and it was in a good location Easy on/off access from I-95, good views, and lots of entertainment.
