Disney and Universal: Two very different paths

PeterAlt

Well-Known Member
They're 2 completely different companies with different business plans. It's like comparing apples to mashed potatoes. I dropped out of the "Spirited" thread at page 30 - thank you for summarizing!
I've said this before, but now it's becoming more and more relevant. Remember when everyone had a MySpace page? Now everyone is on Facebook. If Disney doesn't act, they will be like MySpace and Universal will take its place, like Facebook did.
 

Tim Lohr

Well-Known Member
I argue that a catastrophic failure is underway now. It just isn't a sudden thing, it has been and will continue to be a gradual decline unless something is done to pull them out of the fall. It will take time, and it's not going to cause WDW to close its doors. But it will be a big enough effect to put the Disney corporation in panic mode. As ParentsOf4 mentioned in another thread, WDW isn't going to close. But it will be in a crisis if nothing is done.

You're wrong about public opinion not changing just because of a brand. Someone else mentioned a good example in this thread, I believe it was Kodak vs Fuji. And Coke vs Pepsi. You overestimate the love of a brand name and can't seem to get that it's the substance that gets people interested in the product in the first place.

I think it will take a LOT for people to stop going to WDW completely. More than is ever likely to be allowed to happen. But I do believe that it's well within reason and even quite plausible that bad enough things can occur to start causing attendance numbers to shift, enough to make the corporate leaders descend into panic mode. Even if that number is just about 5-10% of a loss to the competition. Might not seem like a huge deal to the average person or nearly enough to destroy the parks by any stretch, but it sends panic through a corporation.


I know it can be fixed, the problem is that it is not. And there's little hope that it will be at this point in time. It's not a matter of what can and can't be done, it's a matter of will. A desire to do anything about it doesn't seem to exist at all in the people who run the place.

I don't think I'm overestimating anything, the last time I checked the Magic Kingdom park in Florida is no.1 theme park in the world by a pretty wide margin, the top 5 parks in the world are all Disney parks, Universal Orlando is some where below that, and nothing they've done at Universal has any significant effect on the attendance at WDW
 

Tim Lohr

Well-Known Member
I see what you are saying about the opposite of nostalgia, but I don't think Snow White would be as appealing to todays children if it were not for the Disney Parks and how the Princesses are marketed. The movie is a part of The Magical World of Disney now. Disney Magic will never get old because of the Disney Parks in my opinion. Snow White is not 80 years old, its fresh and alive in the parks today. It is still a great work of art and is a masterpiece but its got more going for it then just the movie itself now. So I think that helps an 80 year old movie stay relevant also. So Because of the parks I see Disney staying quite relevant and I don't see why Universal cant learn how to do the same especially with Harry Potter.

I'm not sure if you're agreeing with me or arguing with me, but the I'm pretty sure the Disney films stand on their own. I showed my 2 year old niece Cinderella just to see what she'd think of it, and the second it ended she wanted to see it again, and I then had to play it third time for her later the same day. It wasn't marketing, it was the just content of the film, the characters and the music just appeal to children ...period.
 

stevehousse

Well-Known Member
A poster on the previous page mentioned this, but Disney will always continue to beat Universal because ofthe lack of family and children's rides. That's the reason we don't go to uni, my son is barely 44 inches and my other son is only 2. As much as me and my wife would love to go, it just doesn't make sense to buy te tickets when my kids can barely go on anything!

Not to mention my son is a huge Potter Fan and I would not torture him with, "we are at Harry potter land, but you can't go on anything because you aren't talk enough"

Yes we will work on going to uni in a few years once the boys are older, but for now, we will stick with Disney since we can do so much for with the kids!
 

Sam Magic

Well-Known Member
I think until Disney fully realizes My Disney Experience and MyMagic+ it's going to be slow on purpose. I think Disney is trying to get their act together as an operation. How do they operate what they currently have (significantly more than Universal) and how they operate the best where no one can touch them.
Once they have an operation that makes guests and cast members happy (and believe me..they'll figure it out and make it happen) then they can start to open new projects left and right.
New attractions + better operation for guests = competition.

Disney didn't get this far by being stupid. They're innovators and if you don't understand what they're doing right now because they don't have cranes everywhere like Universal well then you're exactly where they want you. For years Disney has been at the front of speculation and people trying to figure out what secrets Disney is keeping and now they can work on things and nobody is trying to figure them out thanks to the distraction that is Universal.

Just wait- once Disney has MyMagic+ down. It'll be go time.
This is the best post I have ever given time to read here on the board. Wasn't fast-pass thought to be a flop and now it's a park essential? I honestly think Disney is stalling while they work behind the scenes, lets UNI get the spot light, and then they will go all out and shock the world.
 

Tim Lohr

Well-Known Member
The two terms are very closely linked. Even the Merriam Webster dictionary conflates the terms within it's definition of nostalgia: "a wistful desire to return in thought or in fact to a former time in one's life, to one's home or homeland, or to one's family and friends; a sentimental yearning for the happiness of a former place or time: a nostalgia for his college days."

But I think you are trying to make a distinction between personal nostalgia and nostalgia for a communal past that one did not directly experience; the difference between the sense of nostalgia I might feel watching a rerun of The Cosby show that I had previously seen, and the nostalgia I feel for a grand, imagined past that I get when I watch A Room With a View or read Anne of Gables or a Jane Austen Novel.

Now there is definitely something to that. We tend to view the past (as long as it is safely removed from us by a few decades ago) as charming, romantic, comfortable, even paradoxically 'familiar', even if we had never lived in that era. This is why fairy tale castles and '1940's Hollywood and Wild West saloons make for great theme park experiences. We love the idea of comfortabley stepping into the past.

Let's take a look at the Universal parks, and see what areas there evoke 'communal nostalgia', the nostalgia for a historical time gone by. Most of the lands in Islands of Adventure qualify: the Lost Continent gives us ancient Greece; Suess Landing gives us a fantastical non-history that certainly evokes a time other than our own, perhaps even the 1950's when most of Suess's books were published; Toon Lagoon has characters such as Popeye whose been around even longer than Disney's Snow White.

I would even argue that The Wizarding World of Harry Potter allows for communal nostalgia. True, the books are set in the 1990's. But the aesthetic of the Wizarding World are distinctly of the past. The architecture, claptrap, and even clothes range from Medieval to Victorian. Even if a visitor to the land had never seen a Harry Potter movie or read any of the books, they are effectively transported to a fictitious 'past', a place that evokes strong nostalgia.

Let's go back to your example of Seven Dwarfs Mine Train. True, it is a ride based on a piece of fiction that has stood the test of time and can rightly be termed a masterpiece. It is, after all, the film that started a completely new genre, the animated feature movie.

Now let's compare it to something Universal is currently working on: Potter Phase 2, featuring the Gringott's Coaster and Hogwarts Express. This franchise certainly has not been around for as long as Snow White. But I would argue that this I.P has firmly established itself as a modern day classic, and that it's legacy will reach about as long and far as other classic children's books.

So the real question here is, next year when, Diagon Alley opens up within months of the Seven Dwarfs Mine Coaster, what will be the greater draw? Nostalgia? Or nostalgia combined with substance and quality?

No offence but I don't think anything you are saying relates to anything I am saying, and I don't think any that that takes place any Universal has any effect on attendance at WDW. People who like Harry Potter will go see the new Harry Potter stuff when it opens, Magic Kingdom in Florida is the no.1 theme park in the world but a huge margin so people will inevitably see the Snow White coaster when it opens, and some people will go see both, and I'm not going to discuss the meaning of the word "nostalgia" with you any more because that was clearly a waste of time
 

Tim Lohr

Well-Known Member
The catastrophic failure is in progress. It looks to some of us as though TDO isn't seeing it. It's completely invisible to pixie dust addicts, and is extremely difficult for one and doners to spot. For a lot of us longtime "fanboys" it is becoming more apparent. It is the RAPID decline of the WDW product quality. From service of CMs to the broken down rides and attractions to the cleanliness of the entire property to the declining quality of the food served. I was last there in April and everywhere I went there was broken down stuff. Fountains that didn't work, torn carpet in my room, paint peeling in the MK, broken animatronics on attractions, attractions completely and permanently closed down, poorly maintained roads and parking lots, trash floating in splash mountain for days. Any long time visitor to the world that says "they don't see it" is either lying or delusional. I'm not saying everything at WDW is broken but everywhere you look SOMETHING is broke.

I'm not saying the place is every bit as lovely as it used, I just not sure how many people notice or care. I don't how much of Disney's income comes from long time fans, and how much comes from families who've never been there before don't know how it used to be.
 

danlb_2000

Premium Member
I'm in the car driving home from a wonderful week in Disney.
We spent 2 days in universal for the first time in years, I have to say I was unimpressed. transformers was the reason my 6 yr old wanted to go, so we went expecting the best. Unfortunately, it fells like a copy of Disney without the soul.
Even transformers is a copy of Spiderman. potterland was nice but felt small, its slow time and it was tough to see the wand ceremony, i could only imagine this area at peak season, don't even get me started on the joke shop and Cady store, way too small and tight, and the people who attend this park are pushy and rude. They are a different breed then the Disney folks, I'll leave it that. both parks look good, offer something of value, it not enough for my family to ever consider this a focal point of our vacation. Walkways are too narrow, and the flow in both parks in not well thought out. I come to these parks every few years with high expectations, but my outcome is always the same. We eat at Mythos on Tuesday, that place is a cave with sub par food. Where is the great theme restaurant which won best themepark.... Yada yada this place is joke. Fish tacos and burgers, I was just as displeased with this place as the rest of the establishment, what mess.

The Potter expansion which opens next year will address the problems you point out with the current Potter land.
 

PeteNY

New Member
I just got in and checked in, funny thing is, the reply's and comments are the reason I try not to come on this site. my post was just to say that my family likes Disney better, I was there in the 70's with one park, and it was great, not because of the rides, because the place inspired our imaginations and we had a place to enjoy our family. (might I add with enough room to enjoy, with out being constantly bumped into). Epcot blew my mind, then studios was fun (we still have a family karaoke video from the first year). I love the theaters in animal kingdom and the theme; Its a great place to enjoy with my family, this trip alone 11 family members gathered to enjoy from Hop De Doo to a beer in Germany, to a hotel pool. to end this post on a high note, the new fantasy land isn't that bad, nothing major but ask my 2 yr old, he loved it.
 

jensenrick

Well-Known Member
WDW is going thru a slowdown, but it won't last forever. Corporate rubbish that plagued Disneyland for awhile, too (right around when DL was WDW's current age). I have faith that we, too, will be very pleased by WDW's 50th.

By what? I fear the 50th will come and go, and I'll just be sad to see how little was done.
 

jensenrick

Well-Known Member
The Potter expansion which opens next year will address the problems you point out with the current Potter land.


But what will it do for that "different breed" issue? (shaking my head sadly)

P.S. - I thought all Disney enthusiasts believed that no one goes to Universal unless they have been to Disney first? So how are they a "different breed?" Is it like the Minions? They are happy and yellow when at Disney, but they turn purple and unkempt when they arrive at Universal? ;)
 

Tom Morrow

Well-Known Member
They are a different breed then the Disney folks, I'll leave it that.
No, they are not. Maybe less small children, maybe a bit more young adults and teens, but they are not "more rude and pushy." Especially when Disney guests are notorious for whining and demanding something free at the drop of a hat. You were only noticing it because you were actively going in looking for things to complain about. Instead of going in and enjoying yourself, you set off your day determined to compare it to Disney and find ways to say Disney is better.
 

ford91exploder

Resident Curmudgeon
That is a false assumption. The Yeti is HEAVY. The understructure is heavy in itself, as is the very unnecessary heavy fur.

There are plenty of ways to redesign it to be a fraction of the weight. Lighter materials would also give it the ability to be significantly more kinetic.

Heck, kill some weight, and it could become more mobile in the room. Imagine that.

It is an engineering nightmare. Far too heavy for its size.

Are these numbers right?
3 tons for the fur alone.
11 tons for the entire Yeti.

Trouble is light is also expensive, As an engineer I would be very surprised if the engineering team DID NOT provide a lightweight alternative, However TDO probably went with the 'cheap' option figuring bigger actuators would compensate for the added weight, And this is probably where things went wrong the support structure design being cheaper for 'Light Yeti' was used for the 'Cheap Yeti', No one's stamp is in danger here but it was probably a flawed executive decision along the lines of the Challenger disaster where engineering told management the O-rings would fail and management told engineering to 'Shut up and do what you are told' with the predictable results ensuing.
 

flyerjab

Well-Known Member
I have a slightly different view than a number of the posters on this site that have been to WDW since its inception. I am in my 40s with a wife and 3 children (b6, b10, g12) and my wife and I never went to Disney as kids or as adults until 2009. From frequenting this site since the announcement of Avatar (great progress on that by the way!) I have noticed that a popular view is that WDW has been in decline for the past decade while Universal - with Comcast money - is growing like crazy and long-time Disney fans are becoming more and more impressed as time passes. Also, living near Philadelphia, I have friends that have Comcast as their cable company and know what there monthly cable/phone/internet bill is and I can clearly see why Universal can afford to toss half a billion dollars to Universal each year to improve the parks.

Anyway, I will freely admit that visiting Disney for the first time in 2009, my wife and I were totally blown away by the 'world.' We have since been back 3 times and only stay at the deluxe resorts so we are the idiots that love to through our money away and stay at the most overpriced resorts that Disney offers. Our appreciation for the layout and feel of the Disney parks has only grown during each trip.

I would like to think that I am not in the pixie dust snorting class of individuals but am one that truly enjoys what Disney has to offer. In comparison, in 2012 we visited Universal for one day to see Harry Potter. What was interesting was that I was warned ahead of time by a Potter fanatic coworker of mine to not expect too much. In truth, I found that she was right. While my wife and kids loved the Potter section of IOA, I was definitely underwhelmed by it. Because of the age of my kids at the time, however, there really was not much else for us to go on except for the Dr. Suess Landing area which was great. I am anxiously awaiting Potter Phase 2.

In the end, I guess that my wife and I benefit from the fact that we have not lived through the history and development of WDW as many here have. It is still new to us I suppose and we are extremely pleased with our time spent there. It is crazy expensive but I don't mind spending that type of cash on vacations. In fact, we purchased DVC points this year at VGF and are scheduled back next May 31st - hopefully the mine train will actually be usable by then. Although a Disney fan, I am frustrated by the project timelines for what Disney does.
 

ford91exploder

Resident Curmudgeon
^THIS
That is absolutely the best analogy I've heard yet.

Agreed - And in a further parallel MySpace began it's failure cascade when they decided to 'Further Monetize our Customer base' and took away peoples custom page designs.

See a parallel to My Magic Minus and the 'scheduling' of attractions, And the homogenization of park merchandise and experiences to the lowest corporate approved blandness level Hmmm....
 

JimboJones123

Well-Known Member
Trouble is light is also expensive, As an engineer I would be very surprised if the engineering team DID NOT provide a lightweight alternative, However TDO probably went with the 'cheap' option figuring bigger actuators would compensate for the added weight, And this is probably where things went wrong the support structure design being cheaper for 'Light Yeti' was used for the 'Cheap Yeti', No one's stamp is in danger here but it was probably a flawed executive decision along the lines of the Challenger disaster where engineering told management the O-rings would fail and management told engineering to 'Shut up and do what you are told' with the predictable results ensuing.
When you have a $100 million attraction, what's another mil or so for premium materials?

The culture of abandonment strikes again.
 

bhg469

Well-Known Member
This is the best post I have ever given time to read here on the board. Wasn't fast-pass thought to be a flop and now it's a park essential? I honestly think Disney is stalling while they work behind the scenes, lets UNI get the spot light, and then they will go all out and shock the world.

Fast pass was around long before there were message boards so those who thought it would fail probably weren't very vocal, I don't know where that comes from. I was probably not even a teenager when it came out also, I'm 34 now.

You know what would also have helped eat lines? More omnimovers like haunted mansion, or more attractions in general.

One could argue that we will rarely see fun well-themed queues in the future because of fast pass.

What isn't helping is closing rides in favor of meet and greets or play grounds. In Epcot's case, closing entire pavilions and leaving them empty to use for an annual event on top of other things.

As for Disney shocking the world.. Really? Universal is already a third way into the potter 2.0 which seems to be more hyped than disney and their Pandora announcement which has yet to break ground. If they wait any longer those families that witch to universal vacations are going to have grand kids that prefer universal.
 

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